optima
Junior Member
Posts: 35 
|
Post by optima on Jul 1, 2021 21:56:58 GMT -5
So it’s been December since we last had starfish sex. I’ve found it brutal. I’ve felt deeply hurt, rejected and ashamed. Spent the last few months sleeping on the couch. I have raised the issue in marriage therapy repeatedly. Every time she has said “I’m not ready yet. I need time and space for sex. I haven’t wanted it since giving birth to our child.” Our youngest is nearly three.
For a year she gave me starfish once a week but it was unpleasant. I offered to do anything to get her off. Begged just to watch her get off with nothing in return. I just want and crave physical intimacy from my wife. We have discussed in therapy.
Last week I discovered that she had three vibrators! So while refusing me, she is interested in sex and can find the tune to get herself off. This was very hurtful to me.
So getting frustrated over the last two weeks, as we approached 6+ months without sex, and tired of being rebuffed every time I approach for physical intimacy of any kind, I have brought it up first thing every morning. I’ll either say “we should be married to people who WANT to sleep with us.” Or, “it’s been x months and y days- when will you have sufficient space?”
So today I said “six months is my limit. I love, want and need you, but your refusal to meet any of my needs in this way is intolerable”. Then I left for work. So she texts back:
“ FINE. Next week. I’m on my period now. If you’re that impatient. FINE”.
I texted back: “ Don’t do me any favors. I want you to come from a place of genuine attraction, regard and affection for me and commitment to our marriage. Or at least just tell me that you don’t feel those things.”
Her Reponse: “ you’re being overly dramatic.”
I don’t want or need starfish, obligatory or pity sex. I want to feel wanted. I hate begging for sex or the way that she makes me feel like I’m pressuring her. I hate feeling that way but something has to change and I need to express my needs in this relationship. To me, honesty and good communication is asking for intimacy and expressing my feelings on the subject. It is not undue pressure.
As for next week, I’ll believe it when I see it. I’m not holding my breath for a change in attitude. My question:
In this circumstance what is the line between asking, badgering, pressuring and expressing my needs? Am I being too pushy here? Am I wrong to accept it if offered next week? Should I just accept starfish as the best I’ll get? Should I just stop bringing it up and descend further into porn?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
|
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jul 2, 2021 1:54:55 GMT -5
Quoting you here Brother optima - "So today I said “six months is my limit. I love, want and need you, but your refusal to meet any of my needs in this way is intolerable” - Are you just blowing smoke or do you have a do-able exit strategy in your pocket that you are prepared to enact ? It is not a good idea to say things you don't mean or threaten to do things you aren't prepared to do in these ILIASM situations. All it achieves is to shred your cred and educate your missus that she need not take what you say very seriously. As regards "what (you) should do next" I'd suggest that you see a lawyer in your jurisdiction and establish how a divorce would theoretically shake out for you, start putting an exit strategy in place and knock it in to do-able theoretical status, shore up your support network and research everything you can on shepherding kids (if any) through such a situation. With that information you can make a fully informed choice about what you'd then do. At this point you don't seem to have an alternative. You need one. Now as regards trying to coerce her in to sex, it would seem that this is a tactic you've tried before and over quite some period of time which seems to have had sub-optimal outcomes, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in persisting with it. It would only annoy her and frustrate you further. It reads like you have given her a "6 months or else" wake up call. Under those circumstances I'd suggest that you utilise this time to create yourself an exit strategy (as outlined above) and avoid saying anything you don't mean whilst the clock is running.. By January 2nd 2022 the clock runs out, and then you have some big choices to make. |
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jul 2, 2021 6:50:29 GMT -5
So it’s been December since we last had starfish sex... Spent the last few months sleeping on the couch. I have raised the issue in marriage therapy repeatedly. Every time she has said “I’m not ready yet. I need time and space for sex. I haven’t wanted it since giving birth to our child.” Our youngest is nearly three. For a year she gave me starfish once a week but it was unpleasant. ...We have discussed in therapy. ...she is interested in sex and can find the time to get herself off.... ... as we approached 6+ months without sex, ... first thing every morning. I’ll either say “we should be married to people who WANT to sleep with us.” So today I said “six months is my limit. I love, want and need you, but your refusal to meet any of my needs in this way is intolerable”. Then I left for work. So she texts back: “ FINE. Next week. I’m on my period now. If you’re that impatient. FINE”. I texted back: “ Don’t do me any favors. I want you to come from a place of genuine attraction, regard and affection for me and commitment to our marriage. Or at least just tell me that you don’t feel those things.” ...honesty and good communication is asking for intimacy and expressing my feelings on the subject. It is not undue pressure. ... Am I being too pushy here? Am I wrong to accept it if offered next week? Should I just accept starfish as the best I’ll get? Should I just stop bringing it up and descend further into porn? Look, Baza's advice of lawyering up and getting a support network together and building your life as a future single man are usually sound.... In your case. Start nowWithout exaggeration, yours is the most fragile dynamic I've seen here. 1. You're in separate beds. (couch) 2. She hasn't wanted sex (with you) for three years. (Did she want it while pregnant? Make it four years, if not. If you were "trying for a baby", add that time because it wasn't your fulfillment she did it for.) 3. You accept phoned-in sex and she seems to think that checks a box. 4. “we should be married to people who WANT to sleep with us.” Whether you know it or not, you just threatened divorce and if I were you, I would assume from now on that she's expecting it and may be making plans to do it first. 5. She considers a six month dry spell from passionless starfish sex to be a reasonable interval most folks would endure without complaint. (Impatient). If I had any faith in her excuses, I'd be curious to hear what would be the interval she'd agree was "too long". 6. You want her to feel affectionate and you've demanded it with anger. The two are virtually opposite. That text moved the ball back five yards. 7. I agreed about your views about communication. But that ship has sailed. If your wife were coal, she'd be a diamond now. An offer of sex at this point could be an indicator that she knows you're about to pull the trigger and leave her three year old child in a broken home. Let her try and you should go in with sincerity. Attempt to be generous, be ready to stop if she changes her mind, go in expecting to cut it off in the middle, prepare for any resulting frustration as the likeliest outcome, and if it's like necrophilia again... lovingly, sincerely thank her for the offer and express you look forward to another try some time, when she's ready to share mutual bliss. Buy her flowers next day, regardless of outcome. Just set them on the table without a word, don't make a show of it. She's trying in both cases. You can tangibly express your appreciation with a daily reminder over the next 3-7 days. You made an ultimatum. If she knuckles under, it's a dick move not to fulfill your end. That said, if she offers starfish and ignored the part about being present with you, she may think she's checked the box when she hasn't. Do not get angry. Just make plans to be single, including the legal end of things. Stop asking for sex now. Get healthy, bond with the kids, plan for side jobs to pay for a new place, look around for potential girlfriends, reacquaint with friends, make new ones through Meetups. Build a life you don't have. Some wives notice their refused husbands' changes and like what they see. If you make a go of it, great, but stay on track and don't drop all your new friends, hobbies, and daddy-kid time to prioritize a marriage that failed you for at least three years. It doesn't get priority anymore until it's paid some dues. The hard to get bullshit can be attractive., Being too busy for her is the opposite of pressure. It's sick and twisted but for some women, an unavailable man seemingly uninterested in sex with her is an aphrodesiac. God help us. Be kind, cordial, friendly, and thoughtful to the mother of your children as you busy yourself with a transformed life. Give her everything she wants from marriage and nothing she doesn't. You'll get yours soon enough, one way or another. Be prepared to bite the bullet and divorce and either file for it when you're ready (if no turnaround has manifested) or take the jerri route and, without drama, explain you'll be dating in a few weeks/months in order to complete the life you've made for yourself with physical intimacy. If she'd like to date you also, she can start now, no delay necessary. Maybe the dating others won't be necessary, but it'll be your decision whether her efforts are adequate. If she demands you be celibate as a condition of being married to her, so be it. If that's what she'd like you to explain to curious friends, she can sign the papers you keep under your mattress ready for her silly reaction. Bury yourself more in porn? No. Build a life with which to pursue physical intimacy with a woman who'll feel lucky to share your bed. Maybe even your wife. Side note: What are you getting out of marriage therapy? Maybe it's time to stop? The therapy seems to just be more ineffective pressure, but maybe it serves a non-sexual purpose that's worthwhile? If so, invest fully in those reasons and ignore sex. Get the goals accomplished, then quit the therapy. Use that time to build your future life. Maybe switch to individual therapy if you think it'd help. Free therapeutic listeners can be had online if you just need to talk stuff out. |
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jul 2, 2021 8:56:19 GMT -5
You can’t make someone love you or sexually desire you. Your wife can’t make herself do that either. At best you will get starfish sex that she offers out of duress. If you want mutual attraction she is not the partner for you.
|
|
optima
Junior Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by optima on Jul 2, 2021 20:28:10 GMT -5
Thank you all very much. For women, once they lose Interest in sex with you does it ever come back?
You are all right. I have met with attorneys and know how hard it will be to see my children as little as every other weekend and one night per week and how expensive it is to support two households. Of course there is also the love and affection built up over the course of a 13 year marriage, a family we made and the happy times. Yet despite all of these I find the lack of sex so insufferable my choices are pressing the issue or divorce.
I’m in decent shape, have outside interests and a fulfilling job. We go to counseling. I have offered to go to a sex therapist and really work on making it better for her. For three months I asked just once per week, always rejected, and held my tongue. She’d be perfectly happy to go on that way. I now know that I cannot.
Re: pregnancy, her three pregnancies were the best and most frequent sex of our marriage. Covid was the worst and least frequent. Now, for six months, nothing. I want to make this work but I cannot without sex. To get sex in this dynamic I have to ask and get shot down and after six months of rejection I’m seething. I wouldn’t characterize pressing the issue as coercion so much as trying to save my marriage.
But what I’m doing now is not making it better and if her desire for me isn’t there, then I guess I need to move on. Very sad.
|
|
optima
Junior Member
Posts: 35
|
Post by optima on Jul 2, 2021 20:33:04 GMT -5
Is there anyone who has an idea of how I can get my needs met in this relationship without divorce or badgering for sex? Staying quiet and sexless does not work for me. I think I could live with once per week of sex where she makes an effort and there is passion. Is there any constructive way to get there from here?
|
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jul 2, 2021 22:42:23 GMT -5
The evidence in story after story here is "no". Once a marriage has degenerated into an ILIASM shithole, there is no known method of one person (ie "you") turning it around into something you'd like. Any slim possibility of a turnaround is completely dependent on the two spouses being on the same page. And, those two spouses having the same individual aims as the other, thus making it a joint undertaking. Are you and your missus on the same page Brother optima ? Do your aims for the marriage match hers ? You can't force her on to the same page as you. She can't force you on to the same page as her. |
|
|
|
Post by Jerri💋 on Jul 3, 2021 2:54:57 GMT -5
The red flag is her getting angry at you, that tells me she isn't taking responsibility for her actions!
It's all pressure to them. They will pole vault over mouse turns!
Do I think a sex therapist can help? I'd try it alone first, then bring her in.
With the therapist it won't take long to see if she will respond with enthusiasm.
It's not about you. Some people are not turned on when their partner is being pleasured by them! It doesn't move them! Some are so selfish rather than selfless. That comes across as very unloving behavior! What's her love language? My husband's is service and gifts.
Don't fall into the traps that I did.
=They will make excuses that are easily fixed- then over time, the bar is moved beyond reach!
=My husband/his family was not touchy feely type. I thought that was fine because we had passionate sex.
=Thought if I just found the right techniques he would go back to having sex weekly.
=Thought that he would prefer a wet woman over shagging a mistress.
=Thought he valued making love because I did. His body responded and I loved laying on his chest listening to his heart pounding! So it took me many years to understand that prone masturbation was much more pleasant to him. He just didn't want to be bothered!
=Anger or resentment trap- The only one who was hurting was me. He could never remember when we last made love.
=I should respect my vows. Was he?
=I should ask him for an open marriage. No no no! I should find a loving, respectful way to tell him that I will be having sex outside the marriage and it is open on one side. I can respect his right not to have sex.
Now it could be so easy to still fall into the trap because he told me I still haven't forgotten about you. (Months back we actually tried sex after several many years of sexless. I couldn't keep him hard for long. Then he shocked me by saying he had gotten Cialis from a doc.) The only real reason I used to check in with him was to be fair so he couldn't say I wanted you but you were having sex with your FWB. He just didn't want me and that's ok.
Many traps to fall into
|
|
|
|
Post by worksforme2 on Jul 3, 2021 6:39:23 GMT -5
Looking back I have to say that honestly I pressured my then W into sex. At the time it didn't seem like such dastardly behavior. In retrospect it probably was. But I was trying to keep that unique bond supposedly shared by the 2 people in a marriage. Once things got going she seemed to really enjoy the experience and usually climaxed. But then she wanted it over. Asking for sex from a long term refusing spouse is like looking for water in a desert. You might get lucky, but odds are you won't. If it's going to happen it will usually be the result of some sort of pressure or coercion. Not always but usually.
|
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jul 3, 2021 14:03:03 GMT -5
a couple of edits was typing on an Amazon Kindle so I signed in as a guest. (lazy)
Any asking for sex is pressure to them. They pole vault over mouse turds.
Don't fall into the traps that I did.
=They will make excuses that are easily fixed- then over time, the bar is moved beyond reach!
=My husband/his family was not the touchy-feely type. I thought that was fine because we had passionate sex.
=Thought if I just found the right techniques he would go back to having sex weekly.
=Thought that he would prefer a wet woman over shagging a mattress.
=Thought he valued making love because I did. His body responded and I loved laying on his chest listening to his heart pounding! So it took me many years to understand that prone masturbation was much more pleasant to him. He just didn't want to be bothered!
=Anger or resentment trap- The only one who was hurting was me. He could never remember when we last made love.
=I should respect my vows. Was he?
=I should ask him for an open marriage. No no no! I should find a loving, respectful way to tell him that I will be having sex outside the marriage and it is open on one-my side. I can respect his right not to have sex.
Couple of others.
=If they won't see a sex therapist like my H would not, it won't change, they are avoiding the issue. If they are not the type to compromise, forget it. My H's therapist talked him into compromise because his therapist and mine thought we had a great M otherwise. Looking back two decades, staying because I was strong and could endure was so asinine. I was getting mixed messages from a therapists and now I realize one was having me make a choice. " I would stay because look at what percentage of time is spent having sex." " You may want to consider the fact that you may never have sex again and how do you feel about that scenario?" "Many people choose to be in marriages where there is no sex" I found out over a decade later I was strong and could go without sex, I was sexless for 12 years straight, but I realized I would probably not ever get sex again if I didn't do something about it but at that point I wasn't going to leave, I would get sex and if he left me, he wasn't the one who was strong enough to endure.
|
|
|
|
Post by mirrororchid on Jul 5, 2021 6:18:00 GMT -5
Is there anyone who has an idea of how I can get my needs met in this relationship without divorce or badgering for sex? Staying quiet and sexless does not work for me. I think I could live with once per week of sex where she makes an effort and there is passion. Is there any constructive way to get there from here? summed up her solution succinctly when she said: "I found out over a decade later I was strong and could go without sex, I was sexless for 12 years straight, but I realized I would probably not ever get sex again if I didn't do something about it but at that point I wasn't going to leave, I would get sex and if he left me, he wasn't the one who was strong enough to endure."Can't stress enough: Have paperwork and contingencies ready before you unilaterally announce a date when you'll be opening up, if you do go Jerri's route. Your wife may consider your misery a vital part of your relationship. If you're physically fulfilled as a man, she may want no part of you. |
|
|
|
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 5, 2021 8:28:41 GMT -5
You are being offered reset sex. It is an attempt to shut you up for a while. You have gotten some good advice. baza offers some specific suggestions that are very sound Here is some more if you still need ideas. Give yourself a gift. The gift of the next 90 days. For the next 90 days, take all that frustration and instead of channeling it into the relationship, channel it to you. Forget about sex for now. You and the spouse don't seem to be on the same page. If you want an objective barometer to make the case, consider how many times she has brought up the discussion versus how many times you have in the past 6 months. That should give you an idea of how mismatched the attention to sex is. Yeah it sucks, but suck it up. Spend the next 10 days or so thinking about what you want out if life. And the relationship isn't part of that at least for this exercise. Then put a plan together with some milestones to achieve after 90 days that get you closer to what you want. Once your 90 days is done, repeat the exercise but then think about what the next year looks like. The next 5 years and so forth. Here's a visual for you. Do you want to spend the next 5 years moping, whining and begging for sex? Most likely not. Then think about better alternatives that work for you. As for your relationship. Your wife doesn't seem too interested in sex at the moment. Trying to force the conversation will be like pushing a rope. Instead, stick to household discussions. Kids, bills, food, chores etc. Then carve out out some time for you alone and for you and the kids or kid. Channel your energies elsewhere. One of your goals might be to avoid relationship talk for now. That doesn't mean you make it a point of telling her you are mentally resetting for 90 days. Keep that to yourself. But if she asks, let her know you need some space too, you have things on your mind etc. The truth is, you are going through a kind of trauma and grieving. Thats not the best or healthiest frame of mind to have relationship discussions. If you stick to the plan, at some point she will notice you've withdrawn your attention. You may feel like venting or throwing it in her face if she aska you about it. But dont. Now is not the time. Stick to the plan. There will come a time where you are in a better place mentally and emotionally. Where you will be clear about what you want and need. Thats when you will be in a better position to talk about the relationship. But know that she may not get there or may not want the same things. Either way, it shouldn't change the things you want and your plans. There is a book called No More Mr. Nice guy. You might want to consider it for your 1st 90 days. The book is a little corny at times but there are some good insights about validation seeking behavior and covert contracts especially when it comes to men and sex. It might open your eyes. One final word of advice, to anyone really. NYever, ever have have relationship discussions with your spouse or LTR over text. We have all done this, but it is a foolish thing to do. If they start, be polite and suggest a time to do it over phone or preferably in person. |
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jul 5, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -5
“ f you stick to the plan, at some point she will notice you've withdrawn your attention. ”
This may not happen. When I did what great said my now ex never noticed or at least he never said anything. Over time I became more happy with the life I was making for myself and the me I was becoming. I realized I no longer wanted to be married to him. When I brought up divorce (after talking to a lawyer), my ex readily agreed. We had an amicable and fair divorce. Working on myself is how that happened even though that wasn’t my intent when I stopped focusing on my partner and instead poured that energy into myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jul 5, 2021 23:06:13 GMT -5
Is there anyone who has an idea of how I can get my needs met in this relationship without divorce or badgering for sex? Staying quiet and sexless does not work for me. I think I could live with once per week of sex where she makes an effort and there is passion. Is there any constructive way to get there from here? You can try to go to a sex therapist to revitalize your M especially since you said you are staying for now. Get the book www.amazon.com/Becoming-Cliterate-Laurie-Mintz-audiobook/dp/B074NBD66K/ref=sr_1_1?crid=UYUO6UTTGLCT&dchild=1&keywords=becoming+cliterate+book&qid=1625541590&sprefix=clitorate+boo%2Caps%2C197&sr=8-1Tell her on ____________ day you won't be bringing your old self to a date...{insert a completely different date with dining that you don't normally do} This comes from the book Light Her Fire, There is also one. Light His Fire by Ellen Kriedman. I think you should get both books on audio if you are too busy to read. Act like someone else. I went through the whole nine yards and went out the back door and rang the bell at the front door and said. Shhh, Don't tell Jerri I am here to give you the pleasure date you have been waiting for. Keep up the act all night long. Pretend you are a stranger. (Tell her to bring her vibe for her special date) Fast forward I will write about what a sex therapist taught me. (who taught me how to have a real orgasm -not the tingles you get from making love) He informed me that most women can't cum during intercourse therefore they can suffer if they know what a clitoral orgasm feels like. ( didn't have a clue) Hopefully, she goes along for the ride. The sexual part get some ideas just start out different Does she like oral pleasure? ...Get some hot tea and some iced tea and go between the two of them. Hold each one in your mouth for a good while and go to town. That is one of his fellatio favorites. (that technique on men is called "fire and ice" I am sure it would work on a woman blindfolded. Fast forward do your pleasing... at some point have her bend over and grab her vibe hand her some lube for the clit. Enter her with the vibe on at the same time. It drives me wild, my favorite position because I know it is time for me to cum. I just love it. Nothing like stiff heat and a vibe in unison. There is no sensation that tops that!!! FWB stands while I am on my knees at the edge of the bed. If she has a Magic Hitachi, have her bring that one. If she is upset because you are bending her over and insists on another way have her ride you cowgirl style with the vibe or corner of the bed, you standing both legs straddled to the corner which will give her easy access to her clitoris. Don't do it for her! she will know how much pressure... This worked on my husband (only fellatio was the main attraction with me riding him) we always ended up with him giving me a good orgasm. I used the book from Lou Paget. Her hand techniques and I added the mouth. I was always trying to spice it up for him. I thought that was the problem. I was able to keep this up for about 6 years until we got married. Then it was a complaint here and there. "I am not an experiment, why can't we just do it" blah blah.. More than anything, they love the attention. After a while it just took so much effort just to have sex, it got old. ^^^^^^^^^^^The above was a big hit in a philanderer's forum. Will it work on her? IDK give it a go. All the reading I did to try to spice up my M just paid off when I stepped out for sex. I will get you the other online Lou Paget book. Member Handy found the book online after I was posting about its value to me. iliasm.org/thread/5843/books-on-techniques-divorce-staying If she doesn't follow through or balks go to the sex therapist by yourself first. I hope that you understand that it is not about our skills. Just understand this kept me stuck. |
|
|
|
Post by jerri on Jul 7, 2021 12:32:25 GMT -5
Some advice that was given to me early on was to act like I had a normal sex life as in the beginning. Make a move, which I was not used to doing and let him stop or correct me. After all we were married. My friend told me the way she got sex was to knock on the headboard. No way that would have worked.
I was told to just go lay on him and let him tell me no. That behavior usually came after he persued me. It worked for a while.
|
|
