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Post by baza on Dec 7, 2020 22:43:36 GMT -5
A post from Sister saarinista has prompted me to post this. She floated the observation a few weeks back that most of the stories here really just describe a basic rotten marriage. And there is nothing particularly unique about them. I think she makes a very valid point. Most of the stories here do describe dysfunctional and unhappy marriages, and in such unions it is pretty unlikely that there's a robust sexual component to the union. But we sometimes seem to get stuck on the notion that the absence of a robust sexual component to the marriage is "the" problem, when in reality it is a glaring symptom of a deeper malaise. I'll apologise for what follows now (as I don't want to be seen as kicking refused spouses whilst they are down) ..... but often times a member turns up saying "everything is great bar the sex". And as subsequent posts accrue we hear, almost as an afterthought - "Well yes, he does drink a lot" "Well yes, she does have a problem with the slot machines" "He is abusive at times" "She has run our finances into the ditch" "I suspect he has serious mental health issues" "She does try and control my every move" "He's a workaholic" .... and all the other sorts of issues present in plain old rotten marriages. So, for the sake of discussion, do you think your ILIASM situation is something special, or simply a plain old rotten marriage ? For my own part (bear in mind I've been out of my ILIASM deal for 10 years now) mine was just a rotten marriage, nothing unique about it. The main problems in mine were addiction issues, financial irresponsibility, and some undiagnosed mental health matters. These things were what - eventually - tanked the marriage. Rather unsurprisingly (as you don't usually feel very close to someone who has just put the mortgage funds through the slot machine) there wasn't a robust sexual component to my deal. Rather hard to feel terribly loving toward someone who's just trashed the budget or driven home full of Jack Daniels and put the car through the back wall of the garage. Anyway, there's the discussion point - that ILIASM deals aren't as unique and special as one might think. And the lack of sex in ILIASM deals is nothing unique.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 7, 2020 22:56:43 GMT -5
I often said, it is almost never great bar the sex unless the spouse has a medical condition that nothing helps and actually tries to get the person what they can. What good marriage doesn't care about the other person's wants and needs. And as you said most have some elements of addiction, narcissism or selfishness. I don't think anyone went into a marriage expecting to be come the spouses room mate, or sibling or having to be their mother or father. It's like when people say well he doesnt hit me... If that's the only good point you can think to say about your partner there is a problem. Or they are a good provider or parent to the children. That's all great but doesn't make for a life long happy marriage. And it all really becomes so obvious when the kids move out and the house is silent.
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Post by alwaysdenied on Dec 8, 2020 13:04:13 GMT -5
baza, yes 100% yes.
I came here because I searched something like, "my wife secretly masturbates but tells me she has no interest in sex" or something like that and it led me to something on reddit and whoever it was in that topic had suggested to the op that they look up this site. So I came tumbling along to here. So I read and read and read. Then I posted my first post after having digested and come to the realization that it was worse than I miss sex problem. As I dug into it, I slowly realized how much just the hint or promise of my wife giving me attention would allow me to overlook her mostly out of control life. I feel like I went through the steps of grief over our relationship in like 2 days. Now, no amount of gaslighting or promises will make me not see the truth.
I have a rotten marriage. I probably allowed it to get this rotten by allowing my wife to become an alcoholic who is unbalanced and rages at the littlest things. I allowed it because I honestly hate confrontation. I assumed that an adult could regulate themselves and hold up their side of being a wife and parent. As I peeled each layer off, I realized I'm an enabler. I doubled and tripled my fatherly efforts with my kids to make up for her constant raging over every little thing the kids did or didn't do. They would come to me confused and hurt asking what's wrong with mom? I would make excuses like she's stressed or tired and talk to them to get them to back to normal.
As a husband, I've done all the dishes, cooked every meal and done most of the laundry because she just never could deal with it. I realize I've done all this. And now on top of it all, told my kids that I wouldn't leave them alone with their mom (they pleaded with me when they knew I was about done with this crap)in divorce. They're teens and so I'm going to finish what I started as far as raising them together. Yeah I've heard the opinions here on this, but it's what I can live with myself.
In summation, I WISH IT WAS ONLY ABOUT SEX. It would be so much easier.
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Post by isthisit on Dec 8, 2020 16:09:39 GMT -5
Most definitely a common or garden crap marriage here. Which I simply could not see before I found this place. As with most of us on arrival here I was sidetracked seeking to solve the ‘how to get him sexually revived?’ question rather than taking a good look at my marriage and the extent to which it made me happy.
In my case I simply could not emotionally move on from the man I married in 1997 and the H I had up until 2002. I was desperate to ‘get him back’ rather than acknowledging the current reality, which was that almost two decades had passed since I was last happy in the marriage. I no longer enjoyed his company, felt like his carer rather than his spouse, and was exceptionally lonely.
There was indeed an issue in our marriage, and an elephant in the room which he simply would not and could not acknowledge or discuss. This issue was the reason for an absence of intimacy, both emotional and physical. This issue was the reason he was incapable of recognising let alone prioritising my needs or happiness. This issue is the reason he is now a bachelor. Not the issue itself, but his unwillingness to even recognise its existence, the effect on our marriage and the effect on my happiness.
I am out now, and have been for close to two years. My sparkle is back and my future is mine to decide. I am excited for what is to come, it is all unknown which feels exciting rather than vulnerable. The biggest gift to myself is that I no longer dread the future.
The only thing to come to terms with is that it took me so long.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 9, 2020 7:43:33 GMT -5
A post from Sister saarinista has prompted me to post this. She floated the observation a few weeks back that most of the stories here really just describe a basic rotten marriage. And there is nothing particularly unique about them. I think she makes a very valid point. Most of the stories here do describe dysfunctional and unhappy marriages, and in such unions it is pretty unlikely that there's a robust sexual component to the union. But we sometimes seem to get stuck on the notion that the absence of a robust sexual component to the marriage is "the" problem, when in reality it is a glaring symptom of a deeper malaise. ... And as subsequent posts accrue we hear, almost as an afterthought - ...all the other sorts of issues present in plain old rotten marriages. ...Rather unsurprisingly (as you don't usually feel very close to someone who has just put the mortgage funds through the slot machine) there wasn't a robust sexual component to my deal. Rather hard to feel terribly loving toward someone who's just trashed the budget or driven home full of Jack Daniels and put the car through the back wall of the garage. Anyway, there's the discussion point - that ILIASM deals aren't as unique and special as one might think. And the lack of sex in ILIASM deals is nothing unique. Unique means one of a kind. Surely that isn't the case under the broad definition of sexless marriages. One estimate is that 20% of marriages are sexless. That sure isn't one of a kind. Folks that come here are sexless but not certain kinds of refused spouses. - They're content with being sexless, that is, the two spouses don't mind the sexlessness.
- They're not inclined to have an affair, or they try one and find it dissatisfying.
- They don't divorce/give up easily.
The second and third may be common among the religiously devout. ILIASM has more than its share of the Christian types that refuse to break vows they made to God. The women don't seem to have God as a motivator nearly so often. Perhaps devout women see sex as a Godly duty of theirs (perhaps one they are even okay with) so they aren't sexless even if they're unhappy in other ways (or weirdos that are happily married.) Others have strong (pathological?) adherence to the sense of honor inherent in keeping promises such as "death do you part"; even unilaterally. The 20% of sexless marriages aren't static. Divorces remove some from the pool and doomed newlyweds get married. Resets happen, then go back to sexlessness. About that 80% that aren't sexless though. Surely we cannot assume sexful marriages are universally "good". Many may well be rotten, but skin hunger draws them to couple even as they consider divorce for the reasons you listed. What qualifies as a "good marriage"? Whatever the definition is, does it become dysfunctional if the sex stops? Or is it still "good", but sexless? If the sexlessness is a new, unwelcome development, is it still "good", or does the sexlessness have to fester awhile. If the marriage was "excellent", can it be "good" once you add the sexlessness? Or does celibacy tank "perfect" couples. Apocrypha would possibly want to include the definition of "marriage" as well as the definition of "good", with "marriage" being the easier to define, "good" being a more abstract term. Does a "good" marriage that becomes sexless with neither partner noticing or caring much about it remain "good"? Does the definition of "marriage" require sex even for those who choose celibacy or, rather, simply not choose copulation? If a sexual component returns due to therapy of some kind, was the marriage "bad"? How long must the turnaround have taken? Was the mutual triumph over the bump in the road "bad" or a potent sign that it is actually a very "good" marriage that the sexlessness was temporary due to good communication or full hearted compassion? Flipping it, can a marriage with its share of issues be "bad" but a healthy, passionate sex life tip the scales to "good"? Who measures or judges these evaluations? Can the value of a enthusiastic sex life overcome even glaring flaws? If the flaws are buried in lust only temporarily, was it "good" while the attraction lasted? If a sexless couple has its issues, but fixes the issues, but remains sexless, can it not be "good"? Are sexless, open marriages universally "bad"? Can participants of "bad" marriages be "happy"? Is happiness a useful/adequate metric for a marriage being good or bad (or "rotten", for that matter.) In a polyandrous marriage, can a wife have sex with husbands 1 and 2, but have strong affection for husbands 2 and 3, and only have marriage number 2 be considered "good"? (Husband 1 is a lazy layabout but he's quite talented in the sack.) Are the terms "good", "bad", and "rotten" subjective to the participants, or objective from the outside? Perhaps both and specifying which type would clarify discussion?
Dec 7, 2020 22:56:43 GMT -5 angeleyes65 said: ... Or they are a good provider or parent to the children. That's all great but doesn't make for a life long happy marriage. And it all really becomes so obvious when the kids move out and the house is silent.
Does it though? Perhaps we dip our toes into Apocrypha 's question of what constitutes a marriage versus a "relationship". Is sex required for a marriage? The state doesn't seem to think so. Can 80 year old impotent men have "good" marriages?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2020 10:55:56 GMT -5
I was thinking about this post driving to work and put it in a mental exercise. The "S" in ILIASM could easily be replaced by lots of relationship dynamics of personal needs and relationship problems and find an online support forum. Loveless, Jobless, Abusive, Drug-addeled, Alcoholic, Self-Destructive, Illness-ravaged, Depression-laden ad. infinitum. Sexless is just on the spectrum.
A long-term relationship between two people is fraught with........two people. Even if these people are relatively baggage-free early in the relationship they will accumulate life experiences and pick up baggage. In my own case, our early relationship (2 years before marriage) never attained what I had wanted out of a sex life. Is that bait and switch or just regression to the mean? Is that regression to the mean or a feedback loop of my never being satisfied and her giving up? Both, neither. People are complicated and I err on the side of cutting most people slack. I still miss sex but I understand my role in it fully. Our marriage is mostly fine and I have learned the valuable lesson of not relying on anyone else to meet any of my needs. It's made me a better person.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 9, 2020 14:22:10 GMT -5
About that 80% that aren't sexless though. Surely we cannot assume sexful marriages are universally "good". Many may well be rotten, but skin hunger draws them to couple even as they consider divorce for the reasons you listed. What qualifies as a "good marriage"? Whatever the definition is, does it become dysfunctional if the sex stops? Or is it still "good", but sexless? If the sexlessness is a new, unwelcome development, is it still "good", or does the sexlessness have to fester awhile. If the marriage was "excellent", can it be "good" once you add the sexlessness? Or does celibacy tank "perfect" couples. Apocrypha would possibly want to include the definition of "marriage" as well as the definition of "good", with "marriage" being the easier to define, "good" being a more abstract term. Does a "good" marriage that becomes sexless with neither partner noticing or caring much about it remain "good"? Does the definition of "marriage" require sex even for those who choose celibacy or, rather, simply not choose copulation? Are the terms "good", "bad", and "rotten" subjective to the participants, or objective from the outside? Perhaps both and specifying which type would clarify discussion? Interesting questions - and agreed, I view the framework from which we tend to parse these concepts as limiting. In the four or 5 months prior to discovering my wife's affair, she asked that we seek marriage counselling. We'd been increasingly celibate for several years at that point - with months between, a general loss of intimacy, a rise in fighting and discussions around that point - including our approaches to resolving it. At the time we sat on the psychiatrist's couch and introduced ourselves and our problem, she was (unknown to me) sleeping with a coworker. She explained that apart from this sex thing - "we had a GOOD marriage." As the Odyssey unfolded across the next two years, the revelation of the affair, arguments of such intensity that she jumped from a slow moving car and hit me physically, and left the home in the middle of a snowstorm in pajammas and slippers, leaving suicidal notes to her brother, culminating in me calling the cops to search for her and a night in the psych ward strapped to the table for her. All in the context of withdrawing to a single day a week of part time work, abandonment of all extended family appearances, and still increasing calls for "more space". A good marriage. Eventually I arrived at two insights: What we had was not "good" - at least as measured by the standard or format of a marriage and the expectations attached to that. In fact, what we had did not even closely resemble any kind of relationship that we would agree was a marriage. The source of what became a daily weeping session on my part and death-fantasizing levels of despair, was my constant sense of disappointment of the perpetual failure of my relationship to her to BE a marriage - as either of us would define it. I think a lot of marriage is about an intention that is mutually shared, and a lot is about a mutually invested attraction and intimacy expressed with one another. My situation was improved when I instead adjusted my expectation of the relationship format and let go of the marriage - which it clearly was not. Unlike a situation in which a medical reason limits sexual expression beyond what is intended, I think most cases of sexual divestment are the result of a *fundamental* shift of perception - about the marriage or about the partner - somewhere upstream, that's been left unaddressed. It's like finding out a secret about someone that irreversibly changes one's perception. Like finding they had an affair, or that they used to be a different gender, or that they killed someone, or that their parenting style makes you think they are a bad person, or they did something that reveals them not only to be someone different from the person they thought they married, but to be someone whom they would never marry. You can't roll back that level of awareness. You can only maybe come to learn and integrate the new person that replaces whoever you thought you married. I think in my case, it was likely that she never truly wanted to be married to me - or possibly to be in a marriage in general. And that in having children and setting up our home and household with kids, I failed to be the shining father she never had, but had fantasized about her whole life. Instead I was a normal real person who didn't arrive intact and deploy it. I had to figure it out same as her. It came out in therapy as an absolute impasse - she simply could not get over this nor feel forgiveness for failing to live up to what she intellectually realized was an unrealistic fantasy. I've seen another dead bedroom marriage where - looking way back a couple decades - it was apparent that the husband had cheated and brought an STD into the bedroom, but due to having 3 young kids at the time, left there and never resolved or addressed. Mutual contempt germinated across decades - proxy wars. Until it culminated in a 2 year celibacy and affairs likely on both parts, and now separation. There's almost always some story like this somewhere up in the attic of dead bedroom marriages. Left long enough, they become a part of the defined structure of the marriage - a bad foundation that eventually fails. I think that the end of sex tends to be a visible symptom and an area of intense focus - it's felt physically and you can point to it. But treating it as a problem resulting from the absence of the activity, is looking at the wrong end of the business.
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Post by jerri on Dec 9, 2020 15:00:52 GMT -5
It's a great coping mechanism to just get through the marrige until they get out. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Pollyanna attitude towards the marriage that is sexless. Many people make jobs work by having a great attitude and I think it's the same way for a marriage.
One thing that kind of surprised me when I observed my husband in a social situation was how he lifted me up in conversation with others. I really appreciated that! And to look at his face beaming when he was telling the story was really neat. Or he would take the conversation to me and smile and laugh and asked me to fill in the blanks. He didn't have to do that he chose to do that. He goes out of his way to make me feel good then he won't just shag me. He can say yes, all day long and just won't follow through.
I'm not going anywhere until the marrige really sours. I have way too much to lose. I think my H does a good job considering. I would be the one to find a person who would go sexless within 5 years! I have found a way to cope and keep my marriage intact and loving. And it was a lot of work at first because he felt very insecure and I don't blame him! I think I would too! I really don't know. He has never accepted the invitation to go outside of the marriage for sex.
At first, the understanding was he could step out of the marriage for sex as long as he was having a strong sexual relationship with me and I did not think that was going to happen. He flat out told me he didn't want sex outside of the marriage either. And I really didn't believe him and thought he was probably cheating until I really checked up on him. My first thoughts was, is he gay? Is he cheating? Part of that showed up in his family because he could not hug his own family. I thought that was very strange because I can hug most anyone
To answer your question. It's a special bond to me. He gave me a sports car that is a limited edition. He signed a lower valve retirement to make sure I had extra money. I willed all of my properties to him that I collected before the marrige. Those are material things, but that's one of his love languages.
I had the opposite problem. I thought he didn't love me because he did not make love to me. It took some real convincing to get me out of that headset
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 9, 2020 16:56:33 GMT -5
Unlike a situation in which a medical reason limits sexual expression beyond what is intended, I think most cases of sexual divestment are the result of a *fundamental* shift of perception - about the marriage or about the partner - somewhere upstream, that's been left unaddressed. It's like finding out a secret about someone that irreversibly changes one's perception. Like finding they had an affair, or that they used to be a different gender, or that they killed someone, or that their parenting style makes you think they are a bad person, or they did something that reveals them not only to be someone different from the person they thought they married, but to be someone whom they would never marry. You can't roll back that level of awareness. You can only maybe come to learn and integrate the new person that replaces whoever you thought you married. I think that the end of sex tends to be a visible symptom and an area of intense focus - it's felt physically and you can point to it. But treating it as a problem resulting from the absence of the activity, is looking at the wrong end of the business. When that fundamental shift occurs (and I imagine it's common enough in sexful and sexless marriages) a surprised spouse has the option to accept it, or reject it. The rejection can produce the failure of attraction and intimacy, acceptance may (but not always) be signaled by continuation of sexual interaction. Rejection bodily added to a rejection of the person. Perhaps a refuser is "being nice" by not revealing the cause of lost attraction. Perhaps the revelation leaves only an emotional response of rejection so the refuser cannot explain their refusal. They do not know the revelation mattered as much as it has. Had the revelation been accepted, would the marriage stay "good"? If it were accepted yet sexlessness still occurred, would it still be "good"? Can the spouses disagree on whether it's good or bad? (rhetorical question, of course they can!) Can rejection of the person be accompanied by sex that leaves the disappointing spouse in the dark by not affecting intimacy? Perhaps a slow degradation of living a lie decays the marriage. Perhaps the rejecting spouse who maintains the façade leaves the disappointing but not physically rejected spouse clueless their spouse is unhappy? In absence of physical rejection, can a indulged spouse still feel the marriage is "good"? Is he or she right all the way up until the disappointed spouse snaps? We hear about spouses being under the impression their marriages were "good" all the way up until "The Talk". Were they right? Or was the decay the determinant rather than subjective experience?
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 9, 2020 17:03:57 GMT -5
... One thing that kind of surprised me when I observed my husband in a social situation was how he lifted me up in conversation with others. I really appreciated that! And to look at his face beaming when he was telling the story was really neat. Or he would take the conversation to me and smile and laugh and asked me to fill in the blanks. He didn't have to do that he chose to do that. He goes out of his way to make me feel good then he won't just shag me. He can say yes, all day long and just won't follow through. I'm not going anywhere until the marriage really sours. I have way too much to lose. I think my H does a good job considering. I would be the one to find a person who would go sexless within 5 years! I have found a way to cope and keep my marriage intact and loving. And it was a lot of work at first because he felt very insecure and I don't blame him!... To answer your question. It's a special bond to me. He gave me a sports car that is a limited edition. He signed a lower valve retirement to make sure I had extra money. I willed all of my properties to him that I collected before the marrige. Those are material things, but that's one of his love languages. I had the opposite problem. I thought he didn't love me because he did not make love to me. It took some real convincing to get me out of that headset See, since you two aren't sexual, there's talk of inevitable doom. Or that yours is not a marriage. It seems a bit cut and dried. Sex=marriage. no sex=marriage, outsourced sex=not possibly marriage. I'm not convinced. Esther Perel speaks much about the immense demands we put on our marriages. Is it permissible to make sex one of the things our spouses do not provide and yet let that be okay? Is the forbidding of outsourcing the key saboteur in some marriages that might otherwise be enjoyed and go the distance? We don't have many examples to point at positively or negatively. More conventional marriages shatter in great numbers too, so to point to a sexless marriage that outsourced and then sundered? There's not much data to correlate how sound the strategy is.
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Post by saarinista on Dec 9, 2020 17:15:55 GMT -5
FYI. You can stay married for the money, the kids, the appearances, the house, whatever. There's no law against it.
There IS a law against abandoning your kids or not paying your spouse's debts. There is NO law against remaining in a sexless marriage. That's up to the two parties in the CONTRACTUAL, legal relationship.
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Post by baza on Dec 9, 2020 17:46:00 GMT -5
I was thinking about this post driving to work and put it in a mental exercise. The "S" in ILIASM could easily be replaced by lots of relationship dynamics of personal needs and relationship problems and find an online support forum. Loveless, Jobless, Abusive, Drug-addeled, Alcoholic, Self-Destructive, Illness-ravaged, Depression-laden ad. infinitum. Sexless is just on the spectrum. A long-term relationship between two people is fraught with........two people. Even if these people are relatively baggage-free early in the relationship they will accumulate life experiences and pick up baggage. In my own case, our early relationship (2 years before marriage) never attained what I had wanted out of a sex life. Is that bait and switch or just regression to the mean? Is that regression to the mean or a feedback loop of my never being satisfied and her giving up? Both, neither. People are complicated and I err on the side of cutting most people slack. I still miss sex but I understand my role in it fully. Our marriage is mostly fine and I have learned the valuable lesson of not relying on anyone else to meet any of my needs. It's made me a better person. I particularly liked this comment Brother @tooyoungtobeold2 .... how the S (sexless) can just as easily be A (abusive) or D (drug addled) etc. In my jurisdiction about one third of marriages end up in divorce. I would bet good money that practically NONE of the divorces in my jurisdiction feature the spouses still fucking each other enthusiastically in the lead up to the split. The cessation of sex is not unique to ILIASM situations. I'd posit that in any dysfunctional marriage the decline and eventual cessation of sex is also in play.
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Post by jerri on Dec 9, 2020 21:53:11 GMT -5
Its all in the interpretation. If I decide it is good, but I can't go without sexy fun. Then it really won't work for me until I get sexy fun. My H does not have to be something he is not and neither do I. I had to not do all sorts of things with my H because he may interpret my actions wrong. He didn't want to kiss, touch or get a massage. Afraid I would get too frisky! You know what's nice? Sometimes when I went my bf's room he is waiting behind the door nude! I haven't set my stuff down and he is laughing and kissing! Yay! I can just go straight to the zipper and I won't be shunned, I will be encouraged! I can bring all sorts of lubes and toys and he won't tell me- stop, this is not a science experiment!
Pearl Esther says, " we expect one person to do what an entire village should be doing for us!' yes, ma'am! It's my job to drop the food and bend over the couch! His job to lift the skirt!💜😈
On the other hand, if I decide it won't work...it won't
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Post by saarinista on Dec 9, 2020 22:06:30 GMT -5
So jerri I guess you're in an open marriage? I'm still unclear whether you plan to continue this outsourcing arrangement with your AP, mentor or whatever your extramarital sex partner is.... forever, until you get ready to leave your marriage for good, or something else? Is your husband on the same page as you are? Theoretically, I agree that we should be able to stay married just to avoid the hassle of divorce and moving and splitting finances. In reality, I'm not sure if i could handle that that level of.... Emptiness.
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Post by petrushka on Dec 10, 2020 0:03:09 GMT -5
I think we all come here pretty much ignorant of our real situation...bar the sex. The elephant we’ve been trying to evict from the room. Apparently, it takes coming here and watching other people and their elephants before we notice Godzilla has been lurking in the corner the whole time.
Glad I don't have a real live elephant in MY room, I am completely over shoveling shit. Having said that, I don't think there is any "perfect" marriage where things don't need sorting out from time to time.
But yes, many, many people who landed in iliasm come from an abusive shithole; no mistake about it. I was, and the additional data from the EP group helped me sort that out right smart.
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