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Post by jerri on Dec 10, 2020 0:09:59 GMT -5
If you're asking if I will put up with sexless marrige again. The answer is yes, will I wait 12 years to have sex? No. I may be sexless at some point in time. I was in an unstable marrige for a couple of years. That was 8 years ago.
Am l leaving? Not until i feel trapped in chastity. If he leaves I will handle it. I will be very sad, but I can do anything after being sexless.
The people who fail are constantly thinking others live in a blissful tale and they truly don't understand what we have at home
Yes, I am staying in an open marriage
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 10, 2020 10:06:21 GMT -5
I'd posit that in any dysfunctional marriage the decline and eventual cessation of sex is also in play. I'd thought the same - and it feels right (and in my experience is widely true). I must also acknowledge my former (post divorce) girlfriend though, who claims that she and her husband were both sexually active with each other despite being at the brink of divorce and eventually going over. In my dating life, post marriage, this seems to be the more rare result. She is a high libido person and has always been - an performance level athlete, body-centered - and perhaps somewhat narcissistic (she'd say this herself). She did acknowledge some level of sexual dysfunction or complication compared to her normal routine (which likely wouldn't seem suited for these pages). I came to think that the sex she had may have been largely due to her own libido, and not necessarily due to an attraction to her partner though. On the rarest occassions, even Mrs Apocrypha was very into a root with me. Those were like a lottery windfall when they happened for me, but I also noted without complaint - that my particular presence in them seemed somewhat incidental - like I could have been replaced. People still get horny when in marriages displaying a sexually averse behavior.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 10, 2020 10:18:02 GMT -5
In absence of physical rejection, can a indulged spouse still feel the marriage is "good"? Is he or she right all the way up until the disappointed spouse snaps? We hear about spouses being under the impression their marriages were "good" all the way up until "The Talk". Were they right? Or was the decay the determinant rather than subjective experience? This is where I most appreciate the parsing of "relationship" from "marriage" There is the formality of marriage, and then there is idea of a living marriage. If I marry someone for the purpose of easing their immigration into my country, or if I marry someone and then quickly separate on long term indefinite work arrangements, living abroad - I have the formality of a marriage to the external world, perhaps a wedding event, but I do not live in a marriage. I can have "good" relationships with people who I'm not married to. Many people describe my relationship with my ex-wife to be "good" and often more co-operative and respectful than they feel they can immediately conjure in their own married relationships. A turning point for me - arguably the most significant one - was when I came to feel that the marriage was a lie, and if we both told the truth, that we might find a way to a "good" relationship, when measured against a different bar. For example, we are cooperative parents. We are both invested in our household enterprise - our children, and in the shared resources involved in raising them. We both have an intention toward the each other's success in life - knowing that this is easier for us. We want each other to win, even if we won't be a part of that. As measured by the standards of ex-spouses and co-parents, that's likely "good" - though not perfect and very challenging at times. But it's not a marriage (despite being married, on paper). I think when people say "we have a good marriage except for the sex" it might benefit from more precise language. We have a largely co-operative relationship in most areas, but not a shared sexual interest in each other.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 10, 2020 11:15:40 GMT -5
@ I think you can have a good marriage without sex ,especially in the later years. The no sex is an issue if one wants it and the spouse doesn't care about their partners needs. Also the why there isn't sex is what makes for the bad marriage . In my case I like sex , touch, attention. It all went when he became addicted to porn. Had he had a medical condition but still gave me attention and physical touch. I could have been ok with out the sex. I would have missed it, but you can do other things or self love lol. But the fact that I was getting nothing I wanted and he didn't seem to care was the deal breaker for me. Eventually I became resentful and quit doing things for him. Did what I wanted and we dwindled to just room mates sharing bills and chores.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2020 13:47:17 GMT -5
I think we all come here pretty much ignorant of our real situation...bar the sex. The elephant we’ve been trying to evict from the room. Apparently, it takes coming here and watching other people and their elephants before we notice Godzilla has been lurking in the corner the whole time.
Glad I don't have a real live elephant in MY room, I am completely over shoveling shit. Having said that, I don't think there is any "perfect" marriage where things don't need sorting out from time to time.
But yes, many, many people who landed in iliasm come from an abusive shithole; no mistake about it. I was, and the additional data from the EP group helped me sort that out right smart.
100% true for me. I originally came here with an attitude of "I have overcome the resentment, let me share my wisdom". Boy, did that attitude change. Now I'm fully cognizant of my situation and have, mostly, made peace with it.
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Post by Anonymous Steve on Dec 26, 2020 13:29:56 GMT -5
A post from Sister saarinista has prompted me to post this. She floated the observation a few weeks back that most of the stories here really just describe a basic rotten marriage. And there is nothing particularly unique about them. But this goes both ways. Sure, inherently toxic marriages are not going to be healthily sexual. At the same time, sexlessness (and the resulting frustration and resentment) is extremely effective at killing all that is good about an otherwise healthy marriage. So while sexless marriages are invariably going have a large number of co-morbidities, what is causing what is never going to be entirely clear. Because many of the patterns become cyclical and self-fulfilling, you very quickly get to the point where fixing the sexlessness will no longer fix the marriage, even if the sexlessness was the original, underlying cause and trigger of the decline. So, a more accurate statement of these marriages is: Everything was great except the sexMost of the posters on this board are way too far down the rabbit hole for it to be true in the present tense any more.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 27, 2020 2:27:29 GMT -5
I think this is like saying "wet streets cause rain". Yes, they are both almost always present, but the cause and effect is backwards. Whether or not the reason for the dysfunction is clear, resulting in a cessation of sexual interest in one's partner - there is a reason nonetheless. Having sex with someone you know you don't want to have sex with, rarely results in desire to have sex with that person.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 28, 2020 7:17:31 GMT -5
RE: comorbidities One pair I observe that charts very high on this forum, and even mentioned already on this thread: -Sexlessness and the “LL” refusing to talk about/do anything about/acknowledge/give a damn about their spouse’s expressed pain and suffering. Is LL the real problem? a false diagnosis? An excuse? Just what exactly is it they don’t want to talk about/do anything about/acknowledge/give a damn about? A simple biological condition, or something deeper? There I go ‘what chasin’ again... I've come around to accept Apocrypha 's hypothesis that something important about the refuser's outlook on the refused underlies substantial amounts of sexlessness. Multiple ladies appear to have married "pornosexuals" who did nothing, and that was a problem. In both cases, the problem doesn't get discussed out of embarrassment or protecting the refused's feelings. 'You have a flaw. One I find important. One that taints you badly. But I won't talk about it because nothing can change it or it's not important enough to leave you or I'm not in a condition to leave you or I don't believe in divorce. But my attraction is badly damaged.' You may never find out. Perhaps the reason is petty. Maybe the refuser needed to check the box that said "Marry and have children" and any guy/lady would do. Medical issues can cause it as well and refusers may attribute their waning lust to a flaw that doesn't exist. The delusion presents a reason not to pursue a fix. Mental illness can invent "reasons" out of nothing (e.g. clinical depression) "Why chasing" is a worthwhile investment in marriage, IF there's a limit to it. Active participation by the refuser is going to be essential. Indifference or dismissal is a red flag. Results of effort are inevitably mandatory or... Sexlessness is commonly a tapering off. Not a hard stop. Apocrypha describe the early stage as "why not?" sex that's easy to take part in and devolves into "if I must" sex that is done solely for the sake of the refused or STBRefused. They do it out of obligation or marriage maintenance, not desire. The tapering off can be described early on as "no big deal". The tension/pressure/self-doubt can add on to the initial complaint about the marriage, making a mountain out of a molehill. The initial problem may still be a mole hill. Marriages don't end with molehills, but it may be that molehills attract boulders. At some point, you're sure the mountain is the issue. It surely is for the refuser. The refused might have been fine walking around the molehill but now there's a mountain to take apart. Sounds exhausting and there'll still be that damn molehill even when you're done. The boulders tend to roll right back. What's the use? Right? Just run out the clock and dream of the porch swing and lemonade. Finally, I'll swing back around to the Coolidge Effect which is a biological tendency to reduce sex with partners one has been with for a length of time. The Coolidge effect may manifest itself in a diminished tolerance of flaws that a refuser already knew about. A newly discovered flaw or an error in judgement may elicit a stronger negative response that would have come about earlier in the relationship. Rose colored glasses are replaced with clear ones, maybe smeared with vaseline. For the refused, the sexlessness that had us reading this forum, encouraging us to look at our marriages objectively, may change our glasses too. Not only is our refuser unconcerned with our needs, but they snore, spend too much, and they like "Real Housewives" and not ironically. Why am I here again? Oh yeah. "Vows." None of these other flaws would be a deal breaker for us, but our sense of betrayal grows all the stronger. "Who the hell are you to find me unworthy/unattractive? Mabel in accounting bloody well wants me."
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Post by loneranger on Dec 31, 2020 6:57:59 GMT -5
Same boat here.. she seems to care not one bit. There is no evidence she has made a single effort or attempt at any effort whatsoever. Twenty years married. We have had the talk a few times. It has been at least nine months. I find it a lot harder to initiate these days since rejection hurts and frankly, its not very attractive to show no interest and act like a room mate month in and month out. I had two holiday drinks yesterday and she seemed more accepting so I tried to hold her in bed a little. She said she could smell alcohol, turned away and that was it. No “Im sorry, let’s try tomorrow” or something. Its my longest vacation in over a year and she’s off for the holiday and theres been nothing not even a kiss. But each night watching TV she wants me to massage her neck and shoulders.. no sex, no kissing or flirting or anything. And no talking about it, no reasons or discussion or anything. I feel utterly alone in my own home while married 20 yrs. @ I think you can have a good marriage without sex ,especially in the later years. The no sex is an issue if one wants it and the spouse doesn't care about their partners needs. Also the why there isn't sex is what makes for the bad marriage . In my case I like sex , touch, attention. It all went when he became addicted to porn. Had he had a medical condition but still gave me attention and physical touch. I could have been ok with out the sex. I would have missed it, but you can do other things or self love lol. But the fact that I was getting nothing I wanted and he didn't seem to care was the deal breaker for me. Eventually I became resentful and quit doing things for him. Did what I wanted and we dwindled to just room mates sharing bills and chores.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 31, 2020 7:12:43 GMT -5
@lone ranger I quit doing things for him. Marriage is supposed to be 50/50 mine was 90/10 most days. It sucks being lonely and not alone , I understand .
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 31, 2020 7:32:11 GMT -5
I started dating and, suddenly, doing platonic, loving acts for my wife was pleasant again.
The neck rubs are what a husband does for his asexual wife. Loving her the ways she likes. The mistress fulfills the sexual needs the wife doesn't attend to. Whence the objection?
Baza will tell you, have your legal matters in order before following my example, if you choose to. (my wife made a long term reset before I "cheated", so total win-win, YMMV)
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 31, 2020 12:55:12 GMT -5
I started dating at first the guilt made me less resentful of the giving and not getting. But the guilt wore off pretty quick.
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Post by shamwow on Dec 31, 2020 18:09:11 GMT -5
baza this is an interesting discussion. ballofconfusion and I have had this conversation numerous times and I have a hypothesis... There are two kinds of sexless marriages. The first is the type that BOC and I had. From the start it was doomed. In her case, it was because her ex is a closet homosexual... Ain't fixing that no matter how much "why chasing" you do. In mine, the sex dropped off the cliff as soon as we said "I do". This was also accompanied by reasons I believe were manufactured to reinforce the no fly zone (i.e. Alleged childhood sexual abuse, "medical issues", etc...). I acquired a large amount of baggage (substance abuse, suicidal thoughts, etc...) as a result of this situation, but it was more of an effect rather than a cause. The other kind of sexless marriage is far more common. It's two people that start off with something good. Over time, though, the relationship dies the death of a thousand cuts. When that happens the sex dries up since most people want someone they desire rather than a grudge fuck. This can be compared to diabetes. Type I diabetes is something you're born with. This is the type of marriage BOC and I had. Most others can be likened to Type II diabetes which is typically acquired via lifestyle choices. As a side note, BOC and I believe one of the reasons we are so compatible is because we both came from a similar type of crappy marriage. We suffered from the same disease and found a common cure.
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Post by Handy on Dec 31, 2020 18:16:21 GMT -5
Shamwow The other kind of sexless marriage is far more common. It's two people that start off with something good. Over time, though, the relationship dies the death of a thousand cuts. When that happens the sex dries up since most people want someone they desire rather than a grudge fuck.
Money issues (the economy) more kids and health issues gradually killed our sex life
We ............... found a common cure.
WTG!
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 1, 2021 6:52:37 GMT -5
I started dating at first the guilt made me less resentful of the giving and not getting. But the guilt wore off pretty quick. Perhaps you resented the guilt? Understandable, if so. Guilt of "sneaking around"? Guilt of your normal libido? Guilt of the annoyance of hiding your outsourcing? Guilt of rejecting societal expectations of accepting involuntary celibacy?
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