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Post by saarinista on Oct 25, 2020 15:02:00 GMT -5
No, not at all.
Of course everything is relative. After a long time, it's hard to remember what happiness even is. Or know if I'm capable of being happy.
Moreover, after years of misery, it's hard to summon the energy to get divorced, move and start over and create a completely new life.
Not only that, but I'm unemployed in a pandemic now. It's not just a matter if money. It's a matter of having a job to focus on other than "sexless wife."
Everyone is different. I'm not saying I'd never divorce. I'm just saying I could not be certain I'd be happier alone than staying in this sexless marriage forever. I AM certain it's a friendship and not a real marriage any more.
Who knows? Maybe I'll change my mind.
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Post by sadkat on Oct 25, 2020 17:49:25 GMT -5
Well, this has turned into an interesting discussion. I don’t think there are any certainties in life. One must take risks to be happy. Leaving a marriage will always be a risk as there is no guarantee of happiness on the other side. For me, it was literally an issue of survival- I knew I had to take the risk. But I had no certainty that I’d be happier outside my marriage. Now that I’ve been out off my marriage for a year, I’ve realized how much I lost myself in trying to be someone I thought my husband could love. It’s taken me a while to rediscover who I am and what is important to me. Now I’m working on loving myself. I’m sure you’ve all read many articles about the need to love yourself. I always thought I did. But now I’m realizing that I really didn’t. I didn’t accept myself for who I was. Instead, I tried to change in order to make others happy. I didn’t recognize those needs that I wouldn’t compromise on (hello SM!). You cannot love yourself and deny your needs at the same time. This is why this article was so helpful to me. It reinforced that I must love myself enough to walk away if my needs are not being met. If I don’t know what my needs are, how can I recognize if they are being met? Let me also tell you that recognizing those needs that are so important to you is much easier said than done- especially when you’ve been in a long term relationship and worked as hard as I did to change who you are. In the case of saarinista- you are simply not ready and that is perfectly ok. You will know when you are ready. Until then, make the best of your situation and start working on identifying who you really are, what’s important to you, and learning to love yourself enough to walk away if your needs are not being met. That’s all any of us can do, regardless of whether or not we decide to stay or leave.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 25, 2020 18:19:25 GMT -5
Another one here who headed for the exit when I could not take one more day. I also devoted so many years trying to be a bit more perfect to fix my irreparable marriage. Just try a little harder and it will work out. What a mug I was. It just got worse for me and better for him. I loved the article and also recognise the value in the later comments that actually I am loveable without being perfect at all. Just as sadkat describes I am working on being the best me I can be (yet still a work in progress) and focusing on being happy. If that’s single that’s fine because it’s better than being in a miserable marriage. If it’s loving someone and being loved and adored in return, even better. The important part is that I am now on a journey and not stuck in a prison of an emotionally impoverished marriage. Should I be fortune enough to love again, will I be able to resist trying to be perfect and speak my truth when things are not okay? This is my big fear.
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Post by DryCreek on Oct 25, 2020 19:33:25 GMT -5
Maybe I missed in the article, but my read was “Don’t date until you have your own shit sorted out”.
On one hand I agree with the idea of “don’t contaminate the dating pool if you aren’t ready for dating”. On the other hand, healing doesn’t happen in a vacuum either. It takes more than time to heal wounds.
What I would agree with is the idea of being both introspective (probably involving support from a therapist) and open with prospective love interests. The real dysfunction arises when these two things don’t happen and someone who’s broken doesn’t know it or won’t admit it.
Will someone find you attractive? What qualities are really important now that you’re free? (It’s be easy to rebound with a whole new set of problems because you only focus on what was deficient before.) Do you even remember how to kiss? How often do you really “need” sex, and how much intimacy? Do you have kinks you never realized?
All these things and more are discovered through trial and error, and some of them are necessary for the healing and sanity check - and yes, the new relationship may be doomed from the start. Don’t mislead a potential partner, but be comfortable with an awkward recovery period; it’s OK to walk before you learn to run.
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Post by saarinista on Oct 25, 2020 20:28:53 GMT -5
Exactly DryCreek. God knows I'm a proponent of sorting ones stuff out. I've had more therapy than I can shake a stick at. I just know that I will never be perfect, with a sexual spouse or without. If I wait until I attain perfection to date... I'll be dead before I meet anyone. I think we can work on stuff while we are with others. Maybe even "dating." Gah. Dating sucks but that's another issue!
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Post by baza on Oct 25, 2020 20:41:32 GMT -5
I'd just add that sorting out your own shit can be enhanced (or hindered) by ones environment. For example, if you are in an ILIASM shithole, your ability to sort out your own shit is somewhat hindered by those circumstances as you have to deal with the spot fires that relationship throws up. And that lessens your time and concentration available to address your own shit. If you are out of your ILIASM shithole, your ability to sort your own shit out is enhanced, as you are not busy engaged in trying to put out the spot fires of an ILIASM deal. Then, of course, the issue may involve a new relationship a bit further down the track. If it does (and that often seems to be the case - take Sisters elynne nyartgal @lonelywify and Brothers shamwow thebaffledking ironhamster as examples) then that new relationship can be a great environment to assist you sort out your own shit. And, I would imagine that if you got into another ILIASM deal, that would NOT enhance your ability to sort out your own shit. What I an suggesting here is that your environment is going to play a major role in you sorting out your own shit. Your environment is either going to help - or hinder - that process. Personally, I think that the environment of being in an ILIASM deal is the worst possible environment to be trying to sort your shit out from. That's not to say that you can't sort your shit out (at least to some extent) whilst in an ILIASM deal. It IS saying that being in an ILIASM deal is going to slow ones progress significantly. That's been my personal experience ... and what I've observed in heaps of stories on this board. Footnote. I was trying to sort my own shit out whilst in my ILIASM deal. Progress was pretty slow. I got out of that in late 2009. Progress in sorting my own shit out took off like a rocket in comparison.
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Post by saarinista on Oct 25, 2020 20:53:56 GMT -5
Another thing that limits one abity to focus is financial ruin, which unfortunately is possible if one walks out of a marital home unemployed in the middle of a pandemic.
I think in some cases an open marriage should be considered as an option. I don't know. Some of us may be too old to start over. I'm no longer sold on traditional monogamous marriage as the only way for men and women to enjoy each other's company.
Marriage is an economic institution, officially. Other benefits are not legally guaranteed. I'm not a starry eyed 25 year old anymore.
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Post by jerri on Oct 25, 2020 23:25:19 GMT -5
If one actively worked on one of these areas each week. One would have a healthy R and a much better catch at the end of the time frame one picked.
Pure and simple, I really never got a quality R from holding one hand and grabbing another hand snappy. I do have to wait for sex because I get flooded with oxytocin. My therapist said for me to find casual sex and just wait a year! I couldn't believe my ears! Could not do casual sex. I just waited and it was torture at ti mes. I think I brought a better me to the table after the year. I was able to be in the present! Not be so torn up and be emotionally available. I learned that it wasn't an interview of sorts, just go have fun!
Word to wise, don't have the spinach fettuccini! It got in my teeth and when I saw it, the date was over! laughed so hard! He never said a word!
I get it! Yes, we don't have to be perfect, but that said, "the best way to get over a R is to get back in one" is pure fun, but nuts! Those were my worst R's
If we are focusing on the article itelf, it's correct with great pointers
You out did yourself GreatCoastal💋
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Post by jerri on Oct 26, 2020 0:18:41 GMT -5
Precious one, he is asking you to read this article. Really? You think F the author? You found nothing good? He knew you didn't read it. You can both have good information.
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Post by DryCreek on Oct 26, 2020 1:08:29 GMT -5
saarinista... to put not-so-fine-a-point on the issue, H is also looking at a reduction of assets in the event of a divorce. So you may find that he is more open than you think to alternatives that avoid it, such as a don’t-ask-don’t-tell arrangement.
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Post by saarinista on Oct 26, 2020 2:03:16 GMT -5
saarinista... to put not-so-fine-a-point on the issue, H is also looking at a reduction of assets in the event of a divorce. So you may find that he is more open than you think to alternatives that avoid it, such as a don’t-ask-don’t-tell arrangement. Yeah, I get that. But I'm not about trying to blackmail him into "letting me" have friends on the side in exchange for me agreeing to not screw him over financially. I'm not going to screw him over regardless. He's a good man. We don't have children. Our marriage has always been one of equal financial and (more or less) household responsibility, though stuff has happened where my financial input has lagged in recent years. I'm trying to fix that which is damned hard in a pandemic. I've already talked in general terms about "don't ask, don't tell" arrangements with him. He wasn't thrilled, but I think he would eventually be amenable eventually, maybe. We have an unusual marriage where I feel like we are almost more like siblings now than spouses. I would truly prefer to make this a win win. I don't hate him in any way. I care about him and we've shared 20+ years together. Things change, though. But why does that mean I have live without sex until I die? No fair!
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Post by ironhamster on Oct 26, 2020 5:17:50 GMT -5
I like the article, but I don't think that having an item or two on that list is reason to not date. You need to be real about where you are, though. Dating people is a fun way to get to know them. Maybe there's a spark there, maybe there's not, but if I was going to wait until I had all my shit together I wouldn't be having such a positive experience or have developed the relationships I have, and that might inhibit my mood whenever I wake up, smile, and say, "thank god I'm not married."
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Post by ironhamster on Oct 26, 2020 5:46:24 GMT -5
saarinista , it's not fair, but you are the only one that can change that. Floating an open marriage is a good move. As for your question about who's going to want a sixty year old, there might well be a man the same age wondering the same thing. Last year I briefly dated a sixty year old. Things didn't work out but age had nothing to do with that. Different guys look for different things, and wine and whiskey aren't the only things that get better with age. Some guys my age want to restart families, which requires a younger woman. Some are not. So, age is mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter. I'd advise to be the best you that you can be, build your confidence, and see what's out there. Even if you never break through that open marriage boundary, I hope you get a good boost to your ego here and there.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 26, 2020 5:48:41 GMT -5
I'd just add that sorting out your own shit can be enhanced (or hindered) by ones environment. For example, if you are in an ILIASM shithole, your ability to sort out your own shit is somewhat hindered by those circumstances as you have to deal with the spot fires that relationship throws up. And that lessens your time and concentration available to address your own shit. If you are out of your ILIASM shithole, your ability to sort your own shit out is enhanced, as you are not busy engaged in trying to put out the spot fires of an ILIASM deal. Then, of course, the issue may involve a new relationship a bit further down the track. If it does (and that often seems to be the case - take Sisters elynne nyartgal @lonelywify and Brothers shamwow thebaffledking ironhamster as examples) then that new relationship can be a great environment to assist you sort out your own shit. And, I would imagine that if you got into another ILIASM deal, that would NOT enhance your ability to sort out your own shit. What I an suggesting here is that your environment is going to play a major role in you sorting out your own shit. Your environment is either going to help - or hinder - that process. Personally, I think that the environment of being in an ILIASM deal is the worst possible environment to be trying to sort your shit out from. That's not to say that you can't sort your shit out (at least to some extent) whilst in an ILIASM deal. It IS saying that being in an ILIASM deal is going to slow ones progress significantly. That's been my personal experience ... and what I've observed in heaps of stories on this board. Footnote. I was trying to sort my own shit out whilst in my ILIASM deal. Progress was pretty slow. I got out of that in late 2009. Progress in sorting my own shit out took off like a rocket in comparison. Excellent points, Baz. To put matters in perspective, I bought a plane ticket for ballofconfusion to come meet me two days after my divorce was finalized. Wow, that sounds pretty damn quick in retrospect. However, I had "met" her on this very forum around 5 months before my divorce. 6 months before my divorce, this particular alcoholic had his last drink. This is also when I told my now-ex that I was done and was filing for divorce. 8 months before my divorce, I joined this forum. 15 months before my divorce, I confided just how miserable I was to my dad and told him I thought my marriage was over. This, in my head was a turning point. From that point "fixing my marriage" wasn't a priority. "Sorting out my own shit" on the other hand was. 2 years before my divorce, I had picked the tree I sincerely planned on "accidently" wrapping my motorcycle around to ensure my kids would be "taken care of" with the life insurance payout. 3 years before my divorce was the last time I was able to beg my now ex-wife into having sex with me. 5 years before my divorce, I repeatedly had to seek medical attention for stress related episodes (abdominal pain, panic attacks, etc...). 13 years before my divorce, I realized I'd been fooled a second time into thinking my marriage had been recharged when all she wanted was a second child. From that point other than a paycheck, I'd outlived my usefulness. 20 years (to the day) before my divorce I was married to someone who I thought loved me, but from day one, simply used me to further her own ends. My point with all this this: I let things get untenable for a very long time. It is only after I made a conscious decision to focus on improving myself that I began to see improvement in my life at all. Is there still stuff in the basement? Are there still issues, fears, anxieties, and triggers buried within me? You betcha. Hell, ballofconfusion and I spent a couple hours this lovely Sunday afternoon talking aboit one of them today. Sorting your own shit never stops, or at least it shouldn't. It is hideously difficult if you're with someone who keeps heaping fresh shit onto you daily. It is easier to do of if you are alone (even if still married) and can keep the pile from growing, whether through your SM or self-induced drama (affairs, copious numbers of post SM "flings", or other major lifestyle changes not well thought out). It is easiest of all to do if you have a partner who has a shovel and helps you dig your own piles of shit down to size. This approach works best when you've also got a shovel to help your partner work out their shit. And, yes, you are the only one who can work out your shit, but it definitely helps if you have someone safe and secure you can talk things out with.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 26, 2020 5:58:35 GMT -5
This is another very good article greatcoastal. Thank you for sharing it. I didn’t need to read far to reaffirm I am simply not ready for the dating world. There’s a lot to be said for the statement at the end- “it’s better to be single than in a bad relationship “. This article also makes me wonder if some of us will ever be ready for divorce. I can't imagine ever going through a divorce and then being good enough to date again, according to the standards of that article, so why should I leave? Who wants a 60 year old woman anyway? Screw it. Might as well just stay numb and coast toward death. In principle, I agree with the article, but in reality I can't imagine meeting all of those criteria ever. Do we have to be perfectly self actualized to be worthy of finding love? That's pretty damned impossible, I think. Before I divorced my ex, I thought long and hard about what I wanted in a partner. Oddly enough, the top thing I required is that she had to know what the A-Team was. Yes, that show from the 80's. She didn't have to be a fan of the show, just have heard of it and maybe seen an episode or two. Why, for the love of God, would this be a show stopper for me? Above specific physical attributes (hair color, height, weight, or other "conventional" criteria)? The reason is because I had no interest in pursuing someone who might be open to a sexual relationship, but had none of the generational cues, jokes, and understanding that I did. I want interested in the swipe left / swipe right game, and I'd suspect I'm not the only man out there who feels that way. Just my 2 cents...
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