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Post by hiker64 on May 25, 2020 19:28:16 GMT -5
I am new to the forum. My wife, who used to really enjoy sex (even more than I did) has not been intimate with me in over 10 years. We have been married over 25. It would take too long to describe why I have stayed. Suffice it to say that every time I came close to divorcing her, something major happened in our lives that made me not do it. The illnesses and deaths of my parents, the serious illnesses of her parents, health issues with one of our children, health problems that my wife has had, and periodic serious financial issues. I have almost come to believe that God does not want me to divorce. I am kidding about that, sort of.
My wife came to this country as a teenager and lived with a relative who abused her emotionally, not sexually. I believe this is the source of her withdrawal. She will not tell me why she will no longer be intimate with me. We have been to counseling and she has always dropped out. If I ask, she says she loves me but she feels this is the way marriages work (no intimacy over time). I told her I strongly disagree. I initially believed she had someone else (which would definitely cause me to leave) but I don't think she does. She just seems to have no need for closeness or intimacy. I cannot understand that. Doesn't everyone have needs? The emotional withdrawal is even more painful that the physical withdrawal.
I know she either doesn't love me or just doesn't understand how painful it is for me and how much I need intimacy. I really don't know how to make her understand. I am genuinely an upbeat person and have trouble exhibiting sadness, even when I am unhappy.
I realize the lack of success stories in turning sexless marriages around is very sobering. One of the counselors I was seeing said she had seen this happen with one of her married couples when the rejected husband started getting interest from another woman. It made the wife jealous and improved the marriage, actually. There are a few times over the years where my wife has gotten jealous when something like this happened. As far as I am concerned, it is worth a shot. It is the only way for me to find out if my wife really loves me.
Has anyone used this as a strategy (deliberately trying to make their spouse jealous)? In a perfect world, this would not be necessary. I am in decent shape and attractive for my age. I am not looking to cheat, just to make a female friend who might take interest in me, just to let my wife know to stop taking me for granted. But I am not good at this type of thing. Do I think my wife would get jealous? I think she might. Like I said, there have been a few instances. A few years ago, I met my wife at the gas station (we came in separate cars) and I pumped her gas. Since we came separately, an attractive lady thought we were not together and asked if she could get that service. I said sure and I pumped her gas. My wife got angry with me, ridiculous I know. I told her she had no right to get upset. After all, she was treating me like a stranger. Things got a little better for a while. I liked the anger. It showed she cared. No emotion at all is what is scary. There have been some other instances of this over the years.
Others may think this is silly and immature and that I should just get divorced and look for happiness elsewhere. But when you have been married as long as I have, you want to try everything. Does anyone have any ideas or experiences with meeting someone else (even platonically) and this making their marriage better?
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Post by baza on May 25, 2020 21:46:17 GMT -5
A strategy of "making your spouse jealous" isn't terribly likely to produce an outcome of your spouse suddenly wanting to fuck you.
What it probably WILL do, is provoke an outcome of anger.
And, it "might" perhaps, maybe, at best, get you a bit of tawdry re-set sex.
Bear well in mind however, that her motivation won't be because she has suddenly become a root rat, rather it will be because she perceives a threat to the status quo which needs hosing down.
Anyway, given your position of "wanting to try everything" then sure, give the jealousy strategy a go. I don't see any harm in trying it - just keep your expectations of the outcome realistic.
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Post by hiker64 on May 26, 2020 0:01:04 GMT -5
Thank you padgemi and baza. First, it did not produce the desired result but that was just a momentary incident. Another time, a high school friend of my wife was divorcing his wife and she was trying to contact me by Facebook. That also made my wife jealous and angry but not at me.
I do not harbor an illusion that making my wife jealous will magically fix things. It will not likely lead to sex but may make her closer to me. She may become angry and I do not see that as a bad thing. My wife has a temper and we would fight often early in our marriage. But those were happy years and I always felt that she loved me. As she withdrew emotionally, we fought much less but it was scary to look into her eyes and see nothing. Anger is preferable to nothing because at least it shows emotion. The way I see it, if she gets angry, maybe she cares about our marriage. If she does not react at all, then she cares nothing for it.
I do not understand why my wife acts the way she does but I don't think she wants a divorce (she tells me she does not) and I don't think she wants to be with anyone else. She is emotionally stunted in some way. Now, that does not help me but it does make me feel that if pushed enough, maybe there can be some improvement. Of course, I have considered divorce but the threat of divorce must be real to have any effect and I am just not ready financially or for family reasons.
I am not the type of guy that wants to make my wife jealous. But I see it as worth a shot. My expectations are low but I figure what have I got to lose? I do not feel bad at all about trying to meet a woman for a platonic friendship, not after the abuse I have suffered. But how do I do it? I own a business and would never get close to someone at work. In recent years, I have joined meetup groups and taken classes that align with my interests at the local community college. But right now everything is shut down of course and it is much harder to meet people.
I am not young anymore. I am in my mid 50s. I want to meet someone as a platonic friend, something very hard to do when you are married. I want to do it not just to see if it can help my marriage but for what it can do for me. I think classes and meetups(when they reopen) are my best shot. I do think my wife will get jealous if someone takes an interest in me. If she doesn't, that tells me something too and can help guide my future decisions. If someone knows the best way to make platonic friends of the opposite sex when you are married, I sure would like to know.
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Post by saarinista on May 26, 2020 2:35:02 GMT -5
Um, as a woman in a sexless marriage (I'm the refused) can I just suggest that you not use an unwitting woman to make your spouse jealous?
The third party might fall in love with you and get hurt.
And do l you really want to have to play high school games to get your wife to fuck?
Look. Your wife sounds pretty psychologically compromised. The odds of fixing a long sexless marriage are not good. Give it a shot if your co-conspirator is a willing, Informed participant. But don't use someone as a clueless pawn.
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Post by isthisit on May 26, 2020 2:51:10 GMT -5
Um, as a woman in a sexless marriage (I'm the refused) can I just suggest that you not use an unwitting woman to make your spouse jealous? The third party might fall in love with you and get hurt. And do l you really want to have to play high school games to get your wife to fuck? Look. Your wife sounds pretty psychologically compromised. The odds of fixing a long sexless marriage are not good. Give it a shot if your co-conspirator is a willing, Informed participant. But don't use someone as a clueless pawn. This. X1000
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Post by DryCreek on May 26, 2020 17:34:27 GMT -5
hiker64, a common recommendation here is to know where you stand legally before you rush headlong into actions. Book a free initial consult with an attorney. It varies a lot by local laws and personal circumstances, but you may find that after 25 years you are at a huge disadvantage in a divorce - specifically, around alimony. Before you play with fire, know your exposure; she can still file, even if that wasn’t your plan.
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Post by sadkat on May 26, 2020 17:38:09 GMT -5
Um, as a woman in a sexless marriage (I'm the refused) can I just suggest that you not use an unwitting woman to make your spouse jealous? The third party might fall in love with you and get hurt. And do l you really want to have to play high school games to get your wife to fuck? Look. Your wife sounds pretty psychologically compromised. The odds of fixing a long sexless marriage are not good. Give it a shot if your co-conspirator is a willing, Informed participant. But don't use someone as a clueless pawn. This. X1000 I would agree. This tactic is a form of manipulation that can result in unintended consequences. If I were a true friend, I would be trying to convince you not to pursue this. And I would definitely not be an active participant.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 26, 2020 19:58:25 GMT -5
If she does not react at all, then she cares nothing for it. I do not understand why my wife acts the way she does but I don't think she wants a divorce (she tells me she does not) and I don't think she wants to be with anyone else. She is emotionally stunted in some way. Now, that does not help me but it does make me feel that if pushed enough, maybe there can be some improvement. Of course, I have considered divorce but the threat of divorce must be real to have any effect and I am just not ready financially or for family reasons. I am not young anymore. I am in my mid 50s. I want to meet someone as a platonic friend, something very hard to do when you are married. I want to do it not just to see if it can help my marriage but for what it can do for me. I think classes and meetups(when they reopen) are my best shot. I do think my wife will get jealous if someone takes an interest in me. If she doesn't, that tells me something too and can help guide my future decisions. If someone knows the best way to make platonic friends of the opposite sex when you are married, I sure would like to know. One way that I made many platonic friendships with many woman my age was, by volunteering to do childcare at my church. Mind you this was not WHY I volunteered! But it was an offshoot. I was also a stay at home dad/homeschooler and my woman friends far outnumbered my man friends. Did it make my wife jealous? Not at all. I believe her mind was already so detached from the thought of "wanting sex or intimacy, with me" (or anyone)( emotionally stunted) that she would have been more jealous had I started spending MONEY on another woman! That was a BIG Control issue for her! You mentioned financial reasons. What you may be needing is a strong dose of being desired again? Reassurance that you are still marketable? Not just physically but intimately, spiritually,economically,etc.... I went through a period of needing a "practice date" with a platonic friend, AFTER my divorce. To put my toe back into the dating pool. You might find such a person ,but be open and honest about your motives, and be ready for the divorce plan.
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Post by hiker64 on May 26, 2020 22:39:09 GMT -5
I appreciate all of the responses. I can see that some people disagree with the idea of trying to make a spouse jealous. But I do not see it as a form of manipulation. My wife has ignored my needs for many years, treated me like a stranger. I have talked to her many, many times, told her how I feel and said that I will not live like this forever. She has dropped out of counseling several times. She is afraid to be close, afraid to get hurt. She will admit as much. When pressed, she has admitted to being very unfair to me. When I ask her if she wants me to find someone else, she will never say yes. She will just say "if that is what you want to do." She wants me to make the move, to be "the bad guy." She knows I have been very good to her. Even the counselor said she withdraws as a form of protection and that it is very unhealthy.
I do not see it as a form of manipulation to want to meet someone else in a platonic way, when your spouse ignores you for so long and sees no need to change. My wife needs to be pushed. I could threaten divorce, but I am not ready for various reasons. Others would tell me to do it anyways. In the midst of a pandemic? I have taken classes at the local community college and met some women who were friendly to me. I admit it was quite nice. They knew I was married, just not unhappily so. I was afraid to tell someone that, afraid they would think I was trying to pursue them, which I was not. That is a dilemma.
Every situation is different. greatcoastal said his wife would not get jealous of time he spent with other women. I believe my wife would. If it had unintended consequences, so be it. At least I would know for sure that my wife does not love me and maybe that would be enough for me to leave.
It was said that I should not use someone as a clueless pawn. I would never do that. I am always open about my marital status and just looking to make friends. I have on occasion talked with others, mostly online, about my marital problems. They always say the same thing, "Just spend more time with your wife. Show her how much you love her." People on this forum know that does not work.
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Post by baza on May 27, 2020 0:30:48 GMT -5
It is a good thing that you know that you are "not ready for divorce" at this time. Nothing will shred your cred quicker than making threats that you don't carry out.
Of course on the other hand, without a credible threat, your leverage in the situation is minimal.
So, usual suggestion - - see a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would theoretically shake out for you - within those legal constraints start working out an exit strategy and get it into theoretically do-able state - shore up your support network so you have a theoretical safe place to vent and seek advice - research everything you can to theoretically help shepherd any minor children through such an event
None of this commits you to anything, it's fact finding, pure and simple. Exploring a perfectly valid option so you can make a fully informed choice about your next move.
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 28, 2020 1:15:49 GMT -5
I appreciate all of the responses. I can see that some people disagree with the idea of trying to make a spouse jealous. But I do not see it as a form of manipulation. My wife has ignored my needs for many years, treated me like a stranger. I have talked to her many, many times, told her how I feel and said that I will not live like this forever. She has dropped out of counseling several times. She is afraid to be close, afraid to get hurt. She will admit as much. When pressed, she has admitted to being very unfair to me. When I ask her if she wants me to find someone else, she will never say yes. She will just say "if that is what you want to do." She wants me to make the move, to be "the bad guy." She knows I have been very good to her. Even the counselor said she withdraws as a form of protection and that it is very unhealthy. I do not see it as a form of manipulation to want to meet someone else in a platonic way, when your spouse ignores you for so long and sees no need to change. My wife needs to be pushed. I could threaten divorce, but I am not ready for various reasons. Others would tell me to do it anyways. In the midst of a pandemic? I have taken classes at the local community college and met some women who were friendly to me. I admit it was quite nice. They knew I was married, just not unhappily so. I was afraid to tell someone that, afraid they would think I was trying to pursue them, which I was not. That is a dilemma. Every situation is different. greatcoastal said his wife would not get jealous of time he spent with other women. I believe my wife would. If it had unintended consequences, so be it. At least I would know for sure that my wife does not love me and maybe that would be enough for me to leave. It was said that I should not use someone as a clueless pawn. I would never do that. I am always open about my marital status and just looking to make friends. I have on occasion talked with others, mostly online, about my marital problems. They always say the same thing, "Just spend more time with your wife. Show her how much you love her." People on this forum know that does not work. Hiker64 - I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you... married 25+ years now. The first nearly 20 years of our marriage was sexless... which this group has generally defined as either no sex or single digits each year / less than once a month. My worst stretch was a 4 year period with zero sex. Overall I estimate sex 4x/year in our first 20 years. However about 6 years ago we had a turning point and, for only the second time in our nearly 20 year marriage at that point, my refuser W actually initiated sex one morning.
What happened? I rocked the boat. In your two posts above, you are suggesting rocking the boat in a different way... Trying to making your refuser jealous by trying to get other women interested in you and have your refuser W notice. I don't know your situation completely, but some other people here chimed in to say that that approach may not work. But I would suggest that you (1) try rocking the boat in several different ways, (2) have some new and different honest communications with your W, (3) figure out what is truly hurting her (she seems to be holding back and not telling you), and (4) set a deadline for trying to make the relationship work.
I can appreciate the religious angle / jokingly thinking that God doesn't want you to divorce. I struggled with that for the first 18+ years of our marriage when I was really suffering. But ultimately I came to the conclusion that God wants us all to be happy and that if we are suffering, it's a sign that something has to change. So I internally resolved that divorce WAS an option. From there, I acted upon that new belief / internal resolution. I rocked the boat in many ways. I took off my wedding ring for the full year or so before our turn around. My W noticed within the first week and it bothered her. Good. We tried to fix things ourselves by reading self help books, but it wasn't too helpful. We always got into arguments over key issues (including sex). As the year progressed, I realized that my refuser W felt "loved enough" if she got hugs and simple good morning / good night kisses from me. So I stopped giving her hugs and kisses, and I told her why and what I wanted. For us, I wanted us to go to couples' counseling. I told her that I would no longer hug her or kiss her until we *got things resolved* with couples counseling. About a week of my withholding hugs and kisses we were each starting to get names of couples counselors. I know your refuser W backed out of counseling a few times, but maybe you can give it one last shot.
And that right there may be the key: telling your W that (1) sex is a dealbreaker in your marriage, (2) your marriage is broken / isn't working the way it should, (3) you love her and you want to give it one last shot to fix it, and (4) if you can't fix it by X date, then you may need to separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate / reevaluate). These are things I either told my refuser W directly (or indirectly through the counselor in our initial interviews). For me, I didn't hold anything back when my W and I had initial separate interviews with a couples counselor (he wanted to meet with each of us independently - twice - before proceeding with couples counseling). I told the counselor that if, after trying counseling for a few months, I was equally happy with either outcome: (1) we save / fix the marriage, or (2) we do not save the marriage / we separate or divorce. In essence, I was resolved that I was willing to walk away. If we did divorce, I knew that family and friends would ask if we tried counseling so I wanted to be able to truthfully say that I gave it an honest shot.
I also told the counselor and my wife (in the joint sessions) that I was willing to change... I knew I wasn't perfect... But my W would have to change in some key areas too... including having sex. It took a while for her to realize how much she was hurting me and our marriage relationship, but after about 6 more weekly meetings she figured it out and realized that she needed to make the next move because I had no trust in her anymore. My trust in her was broken. So she initiated sex one Saturday morning and I couldn't believe it. And we had sex again the next morning. That year we averaged sex more than once a week, which was a huge turn-around for me/us.
So, bottom line, I rocked the boat in several ways. I set a deadline. I was resolved that sex (or lack of it) was a dealbreaker issue. I was willing to walk away. I realized that God doesn't want us to be unhappy. I realized that I didn't believe in soulmates... rather, we have different levels or degrees of compatibility that we all have with other people. All of these things influenced how I/we were able to move out of the sexless marriage category.
Hope this helps. I hadn't checked back to this website for a while, but I am very grateful for the predecessor website (many of the people there followed over to here when the prior website closed down). The people in both places were / are great... I learned a lot and put the pieces together enough to figure out how to get our marriage out of the rut it was in.
Best of luck to you. Hope this helps. I can't promise that I will be checking back here daily but I will try to check back here more regularly for a while. I know that it's rare to turn around a SM so I just want to share how it worked for me.
TL2
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Post by petrushka on May 28, 2020 4:44:21 GMT -5
hiker64 , I do not think that an attempt at generating negative emotions is going to be helpful to you. And I regard jealousy as a negative emotion - it's connected to anger, and fear of loss/abandonment, of insecurity, and more anger. Rarely does anything good come from anger. I've been through this before. My first lover&girlfriend withdrew from me. I was not sharp enough at the time to really be able to analyze our relationship mechanics, I knew for about the last year of our relationship that I would get more reaction, more response from a wooden Indian than I got from sleeping in the same bed with her. As a result, entirely without intent or planning, I started being nasty to her: the only way I'd get a reaction was to make her cry. As a result, a lot of people started to think of me as a complete arsehole. As a matter of fact, I made myself cry over the way I was hurting her. Bizarre, but self destructive behaviour is not uncommon in the human race, think of a child breaking windows hoping for love and attention. But it doesn't help anything, and you don't get what you want that way. In this case, I eventually became suicidal, because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life living that way. I questioned her ... and she opened up that she hadn't wanted to be with me any more for a year, get this: because we were too good together, we were comfortable like an old married couple and understood each other so well, she didn't want that, she wanted different experiences but she didn't want to give me up because she did not want the stigma of being a single woman [go figure]. Some logic: the relationship is too good so I want out. Being nasty to her did get an emotional reaction, but not one I relished, and not one that got me what I wanted ... My current wife - well, she sounds a lot like yours in some respects. She is to all appearances afraid of showing emotion, afraid of loving or being loved, because some twisted logic makes her think that it makes her vulnerable. Has no idea that it is self-destructive, even though she knows that it isn't making me happy. She has at least learned to be somewhat physically affectionate with me, although we haven't had sex in 17 years now. Not a bad person at all, she's a good person, but she can't overcome her childhood abuse. I know not to press her in any way, because I know damn well that if I do, she will just go into passive aggressive withdrawl. There will be immediate backlash, followed by a withdrawl into a defensive shell. Poking someone like her would not work. Here's the irony:when I put my cards on the table 11 years ago and said the relationship was no longer sustainable the way it was at the time, she said that she fully expected me to take a lover. LOL, because for years and years after, if we had a female visitor she always found a way to make sure that I would not be left alone with that woman in the house if she (wife) had to go out for something. Yeah, right. They like to keep what they consider 'theirs', even if they don't want to make use of it. It's nuts. However, she took what I said to heart and learned to be somewhat physically affectionate with me.
Ultimately it's up to you to project this into your personal future and decide what you will, and what you won't live with 3 years, 5 years, 10 years down the track. That's what I use as a decision making yardstick. I have decided years ago that I would not want to leave my wife even if I fell in love and in lust with another woman; and that is why I am still with her, even though it makes it so much harder to find someone willing to give me a try-out. Best, -P.
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Post by lwoetin on May 29, 2020 2:38:04 GMT -5
Your gas station incident is pretty funny. I would be happy to meet women that way! I would crack up if my wife would be upset at that. I am sort of making my wife jealous, but it is just slightly. I'm staying with her and not going anywhere, so there is no point in pissing her off. But to keep my sanity, I will try to meet and make friends with more women, for my sake. As long as my wife knows that I'm not a total loser and have some females who enjoy my company, she'll hopefully feel some urge to keep me happy. Our marriage has become sexless when she reached menopause, I guess it is a good milestone for her. But she has been better at intimacy lately. We've been together for 26 years, and we love each other, really. I really cannot justify leaving. So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage. If the wife doesn't want much attention, why not give more to friends. The key to being happy is to not think about the bad part of life and being thankful for the good things in life. I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future. Good luck with getting closer, emotionally and physically, to your wife.
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Post by timeforliving2 on May 29, 2020 12:56:18 GMT -5
Your gas station incident is pretty funny. I would be happy to meet women that way! I would crack up if my wife would be upset at that. I am sort of making my wife jealous, but it is just slightly. I'm staying with her and not going anywhere, so there is no point in pissing her off. But to keep my sanity, I will try to meet and make friends with more women, for my sake. As long as my wife knows that I'm not a total loser and have some females who enjoy my company, she'll hopefully feel some urge to keep me happy. Our marriage has become sexless when she reached menopause, I guess it is a good milestone for her. But she has been better at intimacy lately. We've been together for 26 years, and we love each other, really. I really cannot justify leaving. So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage. If the wife doesn't want much attention, why not give more to friends. The key to being happy is to not think about the bad part of life and being thankful for the good things in life. I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future. Good luck with getting closer, emotionally and physically, to your wife. lwoetin ... Perhaps your marriage relationship is in overall better shape than I thought (other than the SM part). But two comments you made jump out at me and they raise the issue of how important good communication is in a relationship: (1) "So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage.", and (2) "I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future."
In response to those two comments you made, I would say...KEEP discussing the issue... and how it affects BOTH of you (individually)... AND your marriage relationship. Treat your marriage relationship as a separate "thing". You (or your spouse / partner) can't expect to get much out of it if you don't put much into it. You cannot merely "hope" that things will get better. Also, don't use the word "ultimatum" in talking about it. Your marriage relationship is a separate thing, and it has to work for BOTH people. If it's not working in a significant way for ANY ONE of the people, then it might be a DEALBREAKER... IF the problem does not get resolved IN THE LONG RUN. So it's not an ultimatum... it's just a reality of how a 2-person relationship works... or doesn't work.
Since this issue has been going on for YEARS, it needs to be discussed / worked on until it is resolved to BOTH of your satisfaction. If you can't work this out on your own, then a third party (counselor) WILL be needed. If that cannot work, THEN it's certainly REASONABLE to "take a break" for a while (and the action of "taking a break" will be about as big of a sign as you can get that this is a *serious* issue). SOME PEOPLE will not change UNLESS they get a big enough kick in the butt / incentive to change. And don't worry about "what she may think"... because: (1) you certainly have a right to stand up for your needs in a 2-person relationship (otherwise the other person controls everything and you're effectively "a push over"), and (2) If she does in fact change, she will know that she was in the wrong and/or NEEDED to change... and then the relationship WILL be better and she will be amazed by how you are treating her EVEN BETTER.
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Post by maroonedwife on May 29, 2020 18:39:37 GMT -5
I appreciate all of the responses. I can see that some people disagree with the idea of trying to make a spouse jealous. But I do not see it as a form of manipulation. My wife has ignored my needs for many years, treated me like a stranger. I have talked to her many, many times, told her how I feel and said that I will not live like this forever. She has dropped out of counseling several times. She is afraid to be close, afraid to get hurt. She will admit as much. When pressed, she has admitted to being very unfair to me. When I ask her if she wants me to find someone else, she will never say yes. She will just say "if that is what you want to do." She wants me to make the move, to be "the bad guy." She knows I have been very good to her. Even the counselor said she withdraws as a form of protection and that it is very unhealthy. I do not see it as a form of manipulation to want to meet someone else in a platonic way, when your spouse ignores you for so long and sees no need to change. My wife needs to be pushed. I could threaten divorce, but I am not ready for various reasons. Others would tell me to do it anyways. In the midst of a pandemic? I have taken classes at the local community college and met some women who were friendly to me. I admit it was quite nice. They knew I was married, just not unhappily so. I was afraid to tell someone that, afraid they would think I was trying to pursue them, which I was not. That is a dilemma. Every situation is different. greatcoastal said his wife would not get jealous of time he spent with other women. I believe my wife would. If it had unintended consequences, so be it. At least I would know for sure that my wife does not love me and maybe that would be enough for me to leave. It was said that I should not use someone as a clueless pawn. I would never do that. I am always open about my marital status and just looking to make friends. I have on occasion talked with others, mostly online, about my marital problems. They always say the same thing, "Just spend more time with your wife. Show her how much you love her." People on this forum know that does not work. Hiker64 - I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you... married 25+ years now. The first nearly 20 years of our marriage was sexless... which this group has generally defined as either no sex or single digits each year / less than once a month. My worst stretch was a 4 year period with zero sex. Overall I estimate sex 4x/year in our first 20 years. However about 6 years ago we had a turning point and, for only the second time in our nearly 20 year marriage at that point, my refuser W actually initiated sex one morning.
What happened? I rocked the boat. In your two posts above, you are suggesting rocking the boat in a different way... Trying to making your refuser jealous by trying to get other women interested in you and have your refuser W notice. I don't know your situation completely, but some other people here chimed in to say that that approach may not work. But I would suggest that you (1) try rocking the boat in several different ways, (2) have some new and different honest communications with your W, (3) figure out what is truly hurting her (she seems to be holding back and not telling you), and (4) set a deadline for trying to make the relationship work.
I can appreciate the religious angle / jokingly thinking that God doesn't want you to divorce. I struggled with that for the first 18+ years of our marriage when I was really suffering. But ultimately I came to the conclusion that God wants us all to be happy and that if we are suffering, it's a sign that something has to change. So I internally resolved that divorce WAS an option. From there, I acted upon that new belief / internal resolution. I rocked the boat in many ways. I took off my wedding ring for the full year or so before our turn around. My W noticed within the first week and it bothered her. Good. We tried to fix things ourselves by reading self help books, but it wasn't too helpful. We always got into arguments over key issues (including sex). As the year progressed, I realized that my refuser W felt "loved enough" if she got hugs and simple good morning / good night kisses from me. So I stopped giving her hugs and kisses, and I told her why and what I wanted. For us, I wanted us to go to couples' counseling. I told her that I would no longer hug her or kiss her until we *got things resolved* with couples counseling. About a week of my withholding hugs and kisses we were each starting to get names of couples counselors. I know your refuser W backed out of counseling a few times, but maybe you can give it one last shot.
And that right there may be the key: telling your W that (1) sex is a dealbreaker in your marriage, (2) your marriage is broken / isn't working the way it should, (3) you love her and you want to give it one last shot to fix it, and (4) if you can't fix it by X date, then you may need to separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate / reevaluate). These are things I either told my refuser W directly (or indirectly through the counselor in our initial interviews). For me, I didn't hold anything back when my W and I had initial separate interviews with a couples counselor (he wanted to meet with each of us independently - twice - before proceeding with couples counseling). I told the counselor that if, after trying counseling for a few months, I was equally happy with either outcome: (1) we save / fix the marriage, or (2) we do not save the marriage / we separate or divorce. In essence, I was resolved that I was willing to walk away. If we did divorce, I knew that family and friends would ask if we tried counseling so I wanted to be able to truthfully say that I gave it an honest shot.
I also told the counselor and my wife (in the joint sessions) that I was willing to change... I knew I wasn't perfect... But my W would have to change in some key areas too... including having sex. It took a while for her to realize how much she was hurting me and our marriage relationship, but after about 6 more weekly meetings she figured it out and realized that she needed to make the next move because I had no trust in her anymore. My trust in her was broken. So she initiated sex one Saturday morning and I couldn't believe it. And we had sex again the next morning. That year we averaged sex more than once a week, which was a huge turn-around for me/us.
So, bottom line, I rocked the boat in several ways. I set a deadline. I was resolved that sex (or lack of it) was a dealbreaker issue. I was willing to walk away. I realized that God doesn't want us to be unhappy. I realized that I didn't believe in soulmates... rather, we have different levels or degrees of compatibility that we all have with other people. All of these things influenced how I/we were able to move out of the sexless marriage category.
Hope this helps. I hadn't checked back to this website for a while, but I am very grateful for the predecessor website (many of the people there followed over to here when the prior website closed down). The people in both places were / are great... I learned a lot and put the pieces together enough to figure out how to get our marriage out of the rut it was in.
Best of luck to you. Hope this helps. I can't promise that I will be checking back here daily but I will try to check back here more regularly for a while. I know that it's rare to turn around a SM so I just want to share how it worked for me.
TL2
Wow! Powerful post! I am following a similar approach and have comes to similar conclusions and seeing things start to turn around. My husband had some other issues which he is addressing with 2 therapists after I said counseling or over. Thank you for sharing. I believe I can turn around my SM also but if not I will move on.
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