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Post by hiker64 on May 29, 2020 19:30:00 GMT -5
Your gas station incident is pretty funny. I would be happy to meet women that way! I would crack up if my wife would be upset at that. I am sort of making my wife jealous, but it is just slightly. I'm staying with her and not going anywhere, so there is no point in pissing her off. But to keep my sanity, I will try to meet and make friends with more women, for my sake. As long as my wife knows that I'm not a total loser and have some females who enjoy my company, she'll hopefully feel some urge to keep me happy. Our marriage has become sexless when she reached menopause, I guess it is a good milestone for her. But she has been better at intimacy lately. We've been together for 26 years, and we love each other, really. I really cannot justify leaving. So giving an ultimatum is much too risky for the marriage. If the wife doesn't want much attention, why not give more to friends. The key to being happy is to not think about the bad part of life and being thankful for the good things in life. I'm hoping this ILIASM deal will work itself out in the future. Good luck with getting closer, emotionally and physically, to your wife. I appreciate all of the comments that were made. This forum is great. I realize that everyone's experience is different and so their advice will be different as well. Most people seem to think that trying to make your spouse jealous is a bad idea. Perhaps I should have titled the thread something else because I genuinely do not want to hurt my wife. I do love her and I just want her to understand the pain I feel. I agree that focusing on what is good in your life is a good strategy. But I am sure that most of us would agree that a loving relationship is among the best things in life and when your spouse deprives you of that, it creates a big wound. I have often asked myself why I stick around. It is because in my mind I have not concluded that my wife does not love me. Sure, years of rejection would indicate she doesn't love me. She does do a lot of other things for me but cannot understand that those things cannot make up for a lack of intimacy. I do not feel she has contempt for me (something that would make it easy for me to leave) and I honestly do not feel she wants to be married to someone else. She just has an emotional blockage that she cannot get past (or she is too afraid to explore how to do that). That doesn't make it better but it does make me feel that she does need to be pushed. She doesn't respond well to ultimatums so I have to look for another way. Sometimes things surprise me. A few years ago, after years of no intimacy, she thought she lost her wedding ring. I was surprised that she began crying uncontrollably, which she never does. In my mind, she had abandoned our marriage and so why would the ring matter at all? But it did matter. She did find the ring but nothing changed between us. I do feel if another woman took interest in me that my wife would start to change. It could not make things worse, in my mind. Of course, it would be great if something like that just happened organically and no one got hurt, no one was misled, etc. My challenge is to try and make that happen. I thought women like having platonic relationships with men. They always complain that the man is looking for something else. In this case, I would not be. It would just be a friendship that would be good for me and if it made my wife jealous, so be it. If it had unintended consequences, let the chips fall where they may. In some of my more frustrated moments I have said to my wife, "If you don't want to love me, maybe someone else will." At the very least, it did get her thinking. I think that is something every spouse should be thinking because every person in a marriage deserves to feel loved. I doubt we can ever completely recover the closeness we had. That is probably unrealistic. But I would like to move in that direction. That is the challenge.
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Post by saarinista on May 29, 2020 20:40:48 GMT -5
I think honest talk and professional counseling are the way to go in a sexless marriage. Often, they don't help. They you either put up with it, get sex elsewhere, or get a divorce. High school tactics like making a spouse jealous aren't my thing and seem unlikely to work.
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Post by DryCreek on May 30, 2020 17:27:20 GMT -5
timeforliving2, I’m curious about the turnaround as you describe it. Not to try and tear it down, but.. do you sincerely feel that a handful of counseling sessions have profoundly changed your wife’s attitude toward intimacy, or just opened her eyes to the risk of continuing her refusing ways? If she’s just going through the motions to appease you, does that really meet your needs? (Or perhaps you two really do enjoy sex, but she lacked the motivation to engage, and now she has that.) When someone changes their behavior under duress, it seems like this is just putting the shoe on the other foot, which is why ultimatums really aren’t a great approach, even when you’re prepared to follow-through. If you succeed, you get what you want at the expense of your spouse being sexual against their desires - it’s the same as a sexless marriage, except the dynamics are flipped. It seems just as likely to explode later, but with “I can’t deal with sex this often”. Which is akin to what happened to worksforme2, as I recall. In your case, did she just need to overcome a willingness for frequency, or was it more of a transformation from asexual to sexual?
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Post by csl on May 30, 2020 19:34:17 GMT -5
timeforliving2 , I’m curious about the turnaround as you describe it. Not to try and tear it down, but.. do you sincerely feel that a handful of counseling sessions have profoundly changed your wife’s attitude toward intimacy, or just opened her eyes to the risk of continuing her refusing ways? If she’s just going through the motions to appease you, does that really meet your needs? (Or perhaps you two really do enjoy sex, but she lacked the motivation to engage, and now she has that.) When someone changes their behavior under duress, it seems like this is just putting the shoe on the other foot, which is why ultimatums really aren’t a great approach, even when you’re prepared to follow-through. If you succeed, you get what you want at the expense of your spouse being sexual against their desires - it’s the same as a sexless marriage, except the dynamics are flipped. It seems just as likely to explode later, but with “I can’t deal with sex this often”. Which is akin to what happened to worksforme2 , as I recall. In your case, did she just need to overcome a willingness for frequency, or was it more of a transformation from asexual to sexual? um, why can't they change their behavior because of revelation? Why is it that "under duress" has to be the default assumption? And even if initially there is a turn-around due to an ultimatum, why is it that hard to believe that sexual intimacy can't be an "acquired taste"? Just this week, my family decided to get Whoppers from Burger King, and my two adult daughters decided to get the meatless Impossible Whopper. I made a horrified sound and ridiculed the idea of a Whopper without beef. One of them said, "Dad, you've got no room to say anything! You've been eating veggie burgers for two years and enjoying them!", and I had to admit that she was right. To lose weight, I changed my diet and added veggie burgers to my diet, and I really came to like them. But when I first had to eat them, I bitched like crazy. Now, I'm always asking my wife, when she goes shopping, "Do we need to buy any more veggie burgers?" (For that matter, I've traded my Tater Tots for cauliflower & broccoli tots.) So why can't a behavior that is, at first, required become acquired?
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Post by DryCreek on May 31, 2020 2:39:15 GMT -5
csl, people can find motivation in all sorts of things to change their behavior, of course. But you imply that the spouse had no awareness of the issue until an ultimatum, and their behavior has changed because it was a revelation. That’s not how the script plays out for most of us. If you say “This is an issue for me. A big issue. Huge, even.” for years, your spouse is not in the dark. You go to therapy; you go to couples therapy. They’re fully aware of the issue, but nothing sticks. But then the ultimatum, and suddenly a change in behavior? Yes, the sincerity and longevity is suspect; it’s a reaction to the threat of a loss. Could they learn to like it again? Of course, and we’d hope for that. But only a fool would think that an ultimatum suddenly made them sexually attractive to their spouse. And if “under duress” doesn’t translate to genuine behavior, then all you’ve done is put the shoe on the other foot.
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Post by saarinista on May 31, 2020 13:06:25 GMT -5
csl I totally agree that people can change. But most of the people on this board have tried for years to no avail. That's not to say duress can't work. But I'm with DryCreek that it's unlikely. (For newer forum members: evidence from long time members of this forum is that it's not impossible to change a long sexless marriage, but it's highly unlikely. However, it's not totally impossible. Also, you can decide to stay in your marriage and be miserable, or outsource. csl's blog "the curmudgeonly librarian" has some good thoughts on what it takes to change things. Also there's plenter (EDIT I meant PLENTY) on this forum, too.
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Post by Handy on May 31, 2020 15:03:30 GMT -5
plenter?
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Post by petrushka on May 31, 2020 17:25:31 GMT -5
plenty, plenter, plentest ?!?
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Post by saarinista on Jun 1, 2020 1:52:02 GMT -5
Plenty! Sorry, handling this and protests and covid all at once.
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Post by Handy on Jun 1, 2020 3:10:54 GMT -5
When I see a word that looks strange, I assume it is a word I don't know its definition. I couldn't find plenter on the Internet and didn't want to get your meaning wrong, so I asked. I am not one to be the grammar police and I depend on spell check.
Yes, the protests through out the country and abroad are something else. I suspect that without the protests and semi-riots, not much would change. I am not one to turn to violence but peaceful protests do not seem to make many changes.
Saarinista, I hope your local neighborhood is reasonably calm
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Post by bozodeclowne on Jun 1, 2020 14:17:34 GMT -5
~Hiker64 - Welcome. I see many similarities in our stories. I don't think the jealousy plan will really get you the results you desire. Perhaps a better strategy, if you want to call it that, would be to concentrate on becoming the best "You" you can be. Get into great shape, make an effort to be outgoing (even flirty) and interesting with the women you encounter in daily life. You may then notice that the way you carry yourself will attract attention from the opposite sex, whether your wife is there or not. Some partners do respond to that sort of social proof.
That said, it sounds like the only way you will see a real breakthrough is if your wife is willing to seek individual, professional help for herself AND she is actually still interested in an intimate relationship with you.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 4, 2020 0:50:56 GMT -5
timeforliving2 , I’m curious about the turnaround as you describe it. Not to try and tear it down, but.. do you sincerely feel that a handful of counseling sessions have profoundly changed your wife’s attitude toward intimacy, or just opened her eyes to the risk of continuing her refusing ways? If she’s just going through the motions to appease you, does that really meet your needs? (Or perhaps you two really do enjoy sex, but she lacked the motivation to engage, and now she has that.) When someone changes their behavior under duress, it seems like this is just putting the shoe on the other foot, which is why ultimatums really aren’t a great approach, even when you’re prepared to follow-through. If you succeed, you get what you want at the expense of your spouse being sexual against their desires - it’s the same as a sexless marriage, except the dynamics are flipped. It seems just as likely to explode later, but with “I can’t deal with sex this often”. Which is akin to what happened to worksforme2 , as I recall. In your case, did she just need to overcome a willingness for frequency, or was it more of a transformation from asexual to sexual? DryCreek, Good and valid question. Pardon my few days' delay.... I let many months lapse before recently checking back in here again.
I think my wife's perspective changed to somewhere in between those two perspectives/attitudes you mention: She is not going through the motions just to appease me, but she has also not profoundly changed into a nympho sex-addict either. My W had a combination of things holding her back from sex: (1) religious beliefs, (2) how she was raised (prudish), (3) virgin until marriage, and (4) medical issues (endometriosis, stage 4 / severe... and other things) which caused her pain oftentimes when we did try to have sex after marriage. As an aside, I'll be the first to admit that I married too young and too quickly and was too naive about marriage. I dated my W for a year, proposed when I was 23 and married when I was 24. I was the first of my good friends to get married and we were all Christian and thought we were doing the right thing by waiting for marriage to go all the way. No one ever heard about or talked about a SM so I didn't even know it was a thing to be concerned about. My W and I were different because I fooled around in prior relationships in just about any way possible without having PIV sex. My W on the other hand didn't fool around as much, and to the extent she didn't want to fool around as much when we were dating I was (at the time) OK with it because of the "promise" of sex after marriage.
Anyway, so where does my W stand now, and how did counseling change her? We actually found a marriage counselor that was Christian too in beliefs, but not rigid. He helped her to understand that regular sex is normal and expected and biblical and part of a normal healthy Christian marriage. He helped her to understand that she was hurting our marriage relationship in a significant way. I believe I separately learned that oxytocin - a hormone that is released during childbirth and nursing - is also released during sex. And it is released in *men* as well during / after sex. So my W began to realize that our love for each other can grow / we can biologically bond in a different way by having regular sex. I know, it seems like everyone should know this (or at least a simplified / street smart version of this). But my W really didn't understand that angle before.
So my W enjoys sex more now but she is also not a nypho and she's not that creative. Sex is almost always scheduled on a Saturday or Sunday morning when she feels less stressed and we pretty much stick to a standard routine. Breaking out of a nearly 20 year SM into a year of sex on a weekly basis was incredible for me, even if it we stuck to a standard routine. As the last 6 years have unfolded the frequency of sex has tapered too but there have been / are other physical challenges going on (menopause and other) as well as stress / health issues with kids and work. So all considered, it's not a fantasy sex life that we have but it's enough to keep us connected on a physical level. I do wish our sex life was better but I have so many other issues going on in our immediate and extended families and friends that improving our sex life hasn't been getting the attention it should I guess.
I do think that my W changed her attitude for a *variety* of different reasons, it wasn't simply because of an ultimatum (and as you may recall my ultimatum wasn't an angry ultimatum... At the time I could really care less... I would have been happy with either outcome). Re: your last question... we basically had almost *no* frequency in the year before my refuser W had the breakthrough (I believe just twice in the first half of that year, and none in the second half). I wouldn't label my W as asexual anymore but I also don't think she is the average person's definition of a normal "fully sexual" person either because again, our sex is almost always scheduled and follows a fairly regular routine. Generally speaking she is not that creative of a person. But she is a loving and caring person in many other ways.
We have plenty of room for improvement but at least our relationship works in a fundamental way where it didn't before.
Hope that helps.
TL2
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 4, 2020 1:33:37 GMT -5
timeforliving2, thanks for the follow-up. I suppose it’s not surprising that she isn’t swinging from the chandelier, but good that it is sincere and enough to keep you connected. It’s true that we can’t have everything in life; sometimes we need to find satisfaction with “good enough” in one area.
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Post by csl on Jun 4, 2020 17:48:32 GMT -5
@time4living2: So glad to read your story, and how things have/are changing. I can get that your wife isn't a nympho, and I guess my response is "So what? In our wildest dreams, do we want a nympho or a lover?" Anyway, not being familiar with your past and situation, I would ask if your wife is open to learning more, now that she has had some eye-opening, or do you get this impression that she is at a "thus far and no more" impasse? If she is willing to read and learn, there are a couple of great resources for christian wives that are very good. Bonny's Oysterbed7 takes a nearly clinical approach, Forgiven Wife is very introspective, Hot, Holy & Humorous is pretty much straight-forward, next-door-neighbor-ish. Those three women have combined with a fourth writer to create a podcast entitled Sex Chat For Christian Wives. There are many other resources that I could list, but you know your wife best and know the level of engagement she brings.
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Post by hiker64 on Jun 6, 2020 1:45:15 GMT -5
~Hiker64 - Welcome. I see many similarities in our stories. I don't think the jealousy plan will really get you the results you desire. Perhaps a better strategy, if you want to call it that, would be to concentrate on becoming the best "You" you can be. Get into great shape, make an effort to be outgoing (even flirty) and interesting with the women you encounter in daily life. You may then notice that the way you carry yourself will attract attention from the opposite sex, whether your wife is there or not. Some partners do respond to that sort of social proof. That said, it sounds like the only way you will see a real breakthrough is if your wife is willing to seek individual, professional help for herself AND she is actually still interested in an intimate relationship with you. I am starting to rethink things after reading all of the comments. I think I should have titled the thread differently. I really want to (as bozodeclowne said) make myself more interesting to other women that I meet. That will be good for me and possibly be good for my marriage as well. I am new here and want to read the other threads, particularly the ones on deciding whether to stay or leave. There are so many insightful comments. I realize there are very few stories of a complete change in a sexless marriage. But every situation is unique. What is needed for me to stay is for me to feel that my wife loves me. My wife does a lot of things for me. But I cannot break away from the idea that for man to feel loved by a woman, she needs to share her body with him, which my wife had not done for a long time. I recently asked my wife to share her body with me and she did, although not intercourse. It was for my pleasure only. She felt no need to be intimate. But I was surprised that she was willing to do something as it had been a long time. I think she recognized my needs. It was something and it did make me feel good. The question for me is to decide if this is something to build upon and whether it will be enough.
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