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Post by time4intimacy on Jul 23, 2018 20:48:37 GMT -5
Good perspective. Knowing for sure is better then pretending or making assumptions. Thanks! Not that you asked for it, but from my perspective, the paragraph advising a list of specific demands is a huge turn-off. Sure, get her to agree to a romantic date and let her know that you'd like to take advantage of the romantic evening to reconnect sexually. But a list of specific demands is likely counter productive. I'd love to go have a romantic evening in a hotel (with a hypothetical future boyfriend obviously), but as soon as someone tells me, "you WILL" do anything, my immediate reaction (and I think this is general human nature) is to strongly not want to do whatever follows those words. If I was your wife and you followed that advice exactly as written, you'd emerge from the bathroom to find a blow-up doll in the bed and me having gone home. Think about a dog. If you snap a leash on most dogs and talk nicely to them, they'll follow you anywhere. But as soon as you yell at them and try to pull them where you want them to go, they naturally resist you and refuse to come along. If you truly want to rekindle something with your wife, try positive methods to lead her to where you want your relationship to go. I figure that at least ups your odds of success from 0% to 0.001%. Totally agree with you helen. I think spontaneous actions are the best. My wife would find scripted demands as a complete turn off. However, initiating on my part is something I need to get back into to get things better or to realize it is no more.
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Post by time4intimacy on Jul 23, 2018 20:55:20 GMT -5
I REALLY appreciate your input and perspective. In a forum where most of us just try to survive, it is nice to know it is possible to make this better. My wife out right refuses counseling. She said that is admitting the end and in her opinion will lead to divorce, like it did in her last marriage. However, she does not mind talking if the timing is right. We are normally honest, but bringing up sex is always a touchy subject. I do think it can be done and as you suggested timing is important. We are most relaxed when we are having pool time. We normally get in the pool 4 or 5 days a week. I think that is a good time to try it. However, I want to think it through and plan my approach carefully. I do want to keep the marriage together as long as we can have a decent sex life. From: Time To: Time
(ha... I had to start the message off that way)
You're welcome... Happy to share my perspective. I have a few other thoughts I wanted to share after seeing your response / some new info. Yes, pool time sounds like it would be a good time for the two of you to discuss the sex topic (probably with some other things in an "open and honest" session). If for some reason you don't make much progress in that session, at least you will have "floated" the ideas out there in your pool session, although it may take a little time for some things you say to "sink" in (pardon the puns... couldn't resist!).
Seriously though, re: trying to discuss / work things out yourselves vs. using a counselor.... and also re: trying to resolve the SM issue, my biggest additional recommendations are to let your W know that:
- This is a dealbreaker issue for you and therefore you have to ultimately find some compromise / some workable solution within a certain reasonable time (e.g. you know you're probably not going to get things resolved overnight).
- You are willing to try to work things out with just the two of you for a while, within a reasonable time, without going to a counselor. However, if you cannot resolve it yourselves within a reasonable time, then you *need* to go to a counselor (because this has grown to be a *dealbreaker* issue for you... it has gone on too long and you simply cannot live like this anymore). Then agree on what that reasonable time should be for you to work it out yourself. Discuss. My recommendation would be 1-2 months. That seems like plenty of time to me without dragging it out unnecessarily long. It's not unreasonably short (e.g. 2 weeks) but it forces it to be a priority item of discussion for you to get something resolved.
- If you end up needing a counselor, let your W know that it's not the end of your marriage, but it just means that you have an important issue that you need to work out and need some outside help. While your W may have had a bad experience from her prior marriage, reassure her to let her know that you know of other people (e.g. me, and perhaps others) who have had counseling successfully work and have a better marriage because of it. You can let your W know this now, perhaps giving her an incentive to try to work it out yourselves.
- In your best judgment, tell her either now or later when you may start counseling, that again the SM is a serious dealbreaker issue, and therefore you need to set a "reasonable time" deadline for getting it resolved with a counselor. Then discuss, again, what is a reasonable time. My recommendation would perhaps be a *maximum* amount of time that is between 3-6 months, assuming that you're doing weekly counseling. I'd probably pick double the amount of time that you tried to work this out initially yourselves. If you can't work it out with a counselor during this time, then you will separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate). You can't live like this anymore. It's a dealbreaker.
- You should *each* ask around for referrals for counselors. You probably know some people who have gone to counseling at some time. You could ask them, or ask via a church (a church that you attend and perhaps some other churches that you do not attend). The church may not offer counseling but surely they would have some referrals or recommendations. Then research and discuss the people you have referrals for, and agree to start with one.
- In conclusion... You are in the best position to get this resolved if: (1) you are willing to walk away (e.g. at least separate before potentially divorcing)... and your spouse knows this, (2) you both admit that you each are not perfect, and therefore you are both willing to change, and (3) you set deadlines that are well communicated and discussed with your spouse. Because of my prior religious beliefs on marriage & divorce (strong Christian upbringing drilled into my head in the 70s and 80s), it took me forever to internally resolve and conclude that divorce WAS an option... because I simply could not live like that anymore in a SM. I was destroying myself / I was completely broken and unhappy... angry at God and the world. But being willing to walk away is so important. It communicates on many levels to your spouse how serious this is.
One last thought: In my situation, I realized that my W was previously "happy enough" if she had daily good morning / good evening kisses from me and perhaps a few other small shows of affection during the day. So she was getting what she needed, but I was not getting what I needed. One night before going to bed I realized this, and I told her that I would not kiss her again, or touch her again, UNTIL we went to counseling. It brought tears to her eyes. The next morning when I went out the door to go to work, and walked right past her without kissing her, it was breaking her apart and brought more tears to her eyes. Result? Within a few days we were getting our list of counselors put together and then within a few weeks we had our first appointment. Bottom line: I refused my refuser to get my point across! I found something that she needed and withheld that from her. I wasn't trying to be mean, but I had to take a stand and get my point across as to how the SM was hurting me. Oh, and my ring had been off for 9 months prior to this too.
Hope this helps!
TL2
I love your advise and need to implement some of the items. She does NOT know I will leave, I think she believes I will just put up with it. I also give her what she needs and my needs go unmet and when I ask her, the answer is normally no. I also like the idea of putting in time limits, I can see that is so important. If there is no pressure to get better, it will not get better.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 23, 2018 20:56:46 GMT -5
Not that you asked for it, but from my perspective, the paragraph advising a list of specific demands is a huge turn-off. Sure, get her to agree to a romantic date and let her know that you'd like to take advantage of the romantic evening to reconnect sexually. But a list of specific demands is likely counter productive. I'd love to go have a romantic evening in a hotel (with a hypothetical future boyfriend obviously), but as soon as someone tells me, "you WILL" do anything, my immediate reaction (and I think this is general human nature) is to strongly not want to do whatever follows those words. If I was your wife and you followed that advice exactly as written, you'd emerge from the bathroom to find a blow-up doll in the bed and me having gone home. Think about a dog. If you snap a leash on most dogs and talk nicely to them, they'll follow you anywhere. But as soon as you yell at them and try to pull them where you want them to go, they naturally resist you and refuse to come along. If you truly want to rekindle something with your wife, try positive methods to lead her to where you want your relationship to go. I figure that at least ups your odds of success from 0% to 0.001%. Totally agree with you helen. I think spontaneous actions are the best. My wife would find scripted demands as a complete turn off. However, initiating on my part is something I need to get back into to get things better or to realize it is no more. Scripting is no good. Then you find out directly asking is a turnoff. Then being subtle is missed or ignored. Then being fun and spontaneous yields a no. So you're stuck with whenever she feels like it, and you take it because otherwise it's nothing. Sure, it takes two to consent, but there's a difference between making someone do what you want and being able to have some small sexual request, scenario, position, etc be just for you, just because you wanted it, and she wanted to do it for you.
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Post by time4intimacy on Jul 23, 2018 20:59:17 GMT -5
I REALLY appreciate your input and perspective. In a forum where most of us just try to survive, it is nice to know it is possible to make this better. My wife out right refuses counseling. She said that is admitting the end and in her opinion will lead to divorce, like it did in her last marriage. However, she does not mind talking if the timing is right. We are normally honest, but bringing up sex is always a touchy subject. I do think it can be done and as you suggested timing is important. We are most relaxed when we are having pool time. We normally get in the pool 4 or 5 days a week. I think that is a good time to try it. However, I want to think it through and plan my approach carefully. I do want to keep the marriage together as long as we can have a decent sex life. She doesn't want to consider counseling because it will lead to divorce? The question to put to her is "Just what do you think the end will be if you impose celibacy on me?" good point
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Post by saarinista on Jul 23, 2018 21:09:01 GMT -5
Oh my wife knows it's a huge issue. I raised it very early in our sessions. The counselor has recently suggested us going away for a weekend without the kids and she bristled because she indicated that I'll expect sex if we do that. Um, OK......us alone, without three kids for the first time in forever. Who wouldn't? I've gotten more and more comfortable with the need to leave for my own personal sanity if we can't resolve this issue. God willing, I still have about half my life ahead of me and I want it to be happy and as stress free as possible, hopefully filled with great sex as long as I am capable of having it. We aren't currently setting a healthy example for our kids (sleeping in separate beds, etc.) and it is really causing me a ton of stress. I am not happy in my marriage and she probably isn't either. I still love my wife (and she claims she loves me), which is why I am still here trying to fix it. However, there comes a point where you realize someone isn't going to change their behavior and maybe they just don't want to. Right now, I am still seeing changes in her for the better, even though the sex part hasn't come back. If I don't see inroads there soon also, our paths may start to diverge. I've already consulted an attorney, so I know what I'm in for if either of us chooses that road. It will be bumpy, but hopefully livable on the other side. We can love lots of people. But having a marriage that is in all ways fulfilling is another animal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2018 22:27:50 GMT -5
Rejection got old and I quit asking altogether. When you’re turned down one too many times, why bother asking? I decided I’d had enough and I’ll be officially single in about 3 weeks.
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Post by time4intimacy on Jul 24, 2018 5:47:05 GMT -5
Rejection got old and I quit asking altogether. When you’re turned down one too many times, why bother asking? I decided I’d had enough and I’ll be officially single in about 3 weeks. Congrats on moving forward and starting a new life. I think I am at the why bother point, but at the same time, I feel I need to try.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 24, 2018 10:55:27 GMT -5
Not that you asked for it, but from my perspective, the paragraph advising a list of specific demands is a huge turn-off. Sure, get her to agree to a romantic date and let her know that you'd like to take advantage of the romantic evening to reconnect sexually. But a list of specific demands is likely counter productive. I'd love to go have a romantic evening in a hotel (with a hypothetical future boyfriend obviously), but as soon as someone tells me, "you WILL" do anything, my immediate reaction (and I think this is general human nature) is to strongly not want to do whatever follows those words. If I was your wife and you followed that advice exactly as written, you'd emerge from the bathroom to find a blow-up doll in the bed and me having gone home. Think about a dog. If you snap a leash on most dogs and talk nicely to them, they'll follow you anywhere. But as soon as you yell at them and try to pull them where you want them to go, they naturally resist you and refuse to come along. If you truly want to rekindle something with your wife, try positive methods to lead her to where you want your relationship to go. I figure that at least ups your odds of success from 0% to 0.001%. Totally agree with you helen. I think spontaneous actions are the best. My wife would find scripted demands as a complete turn off. However, initiating on my part is something I need to get back into to get things better or to realize it is no more. And how many years has it been since your spontaneous actions gave you anywhere near the results YOU WANTED? You have to realize I have been posting on here daily for over two years. I read and live this stuff as I continue on my journey forward. NO I am not any kind of expert, however I find it comical if after years of rejection and a final effort of FINALLY asking for your spouse to take their clothes off and meet you in bed on a planned, scheduled, agreed upon, romantic evening . No children, you made all the plans, you paid for everything, you provided everything, you have listened to whatever she wants to talk about etc...is now a too harsh "scripted demand" than you are NEVER going to get anywhere near what you want. What will likely happen is you will receive starfish sex. Or you both have an orgasm and she then immediately gets fully dressed, rolls over, turns her back to you ,barely says 'good night" and expects you to be reset for another year. Heaven forbid you should desire more intimacy and /or the slightest show of empathy or compassion in the morning? The moment she says " no, I don't feel like it" you are supposed to immediately, have no needs, no desires, no concerns, and immediately put yourself last! Because, Now you have gone TOO FAR! You are really scripting demands and outright asking for a total turn off!! Sadly there are no shelters for mentally abused, battered men, just women. www.chumplady.com/2018/07/entitlement-reinforcement/ I hope you find this helpful.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 24, 2018 17:47:43 GMT -5
Having sex, to me, did not help the marriage. It prolonged it. It relieved a bit of pressure that otherwise might have ended the facade.
I believe what we all want is more than just sex. The lack of sex is a symptom. A doctor that treats a symptom instead of the disease, he is guaranteed an unhealthy patient.
We want our spouses to desire us. In a case where a formerly refusing spouse WANTS sexual intimacy with their spouse, the disease is cured. Getting sex by means of duress does not fix the real problem.
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thefire24
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Age Range: 36-40
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Post by thefire24 on Jul 27, 2018 18:12:11 GMT -5
Having sex, to me, did not help the marriage. It prolonged it. It relieved a bit of pressure that otherwise might have ended the facade. I believe what we all want is more than just sex. The lack of sex is a symptom. A doctor that treats a symptom instead of the disease, he is guaranteed an unhealthy patient. We want our spouses to desire us. In a case where a formerly refusing spouse WANTS sexual intimacy with their spouse, the disease is cured. Getting sex by means of duress does not fix the real problem. This is one of my biggest concerns. Sex under duress is not worth it. Neither is if your significant other just trying to get it over with, and isn’t actively involved.
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Post by baza on Jul 27, 2018 19:10:42 GMT -5
Fundamentally incompatible people don't fuck each other. You can take that fact to the bank.
Now to reverse engineer that statement, if your partner does not want to enthusiastically fuck you, you can take to the bank that you are fundamentally incompatible.
And if you think that fundamental incompatibility is a fixable matter .... well good luck with that pursuit .... as the overwhelming evidence in this group is that it ain't.
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Post by michael on Jul 28, 2018 4:31:02 GMT -5
Someone at my work told me he was going to refuse his wife just to show her what it feels like. I told him, “No way. You are going to take what ever you can get because you never know when it’s going to happen again.” Awhile later he came back and told me I was right. He eventually left though. As for me. I don’t initiate ever anymore. I know what the result will be.
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thefire24
Junior Member
Posts: 28
Age Range: 36-40
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Post by thefire24 on Jul 28, 2018 11:10:51 GMT -5
I keep telling myself I'm done initiating. Sometimes that lasts for weeks usually not though. We'll have a nice day and were both in a good mood, and I'll delude myself into thinking it will be different. Of course it isn't and I get shot down. Then I'm back to telling myself I'm done, and the cycle starts again.
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Post by baza on Jul 28, 2018 21:16:46 GMT -5
Lots of people *say* they are going to *something*. But when it is all said and done, lots is said - but little is done. And that's just human nature.
In trying to deal with an ILIASM shithole situation there is one "golden rule" I believe (not that I followed it strictly back in the day !!!) and that is - "don't say anything that you aren't prepared to do".
Essentially, don't engage in brinkmanship, bluff or bullshit to your spouse - and especially to yourself.
Your cred is potentially the best tool in your bag. Don't shred it.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 28, 2018 22:26:12 GMT -5
I keep telling myself I'm done initiating. Sometimes that lasts for weeks usually not though. We'll have a nice day and were both in a good mood, and I'll delude myself into thinking it will be different. Of course it isn't and I get shot down. Then I'm back to telling myself I'm done, and the cycle starts again. I was done asking once I realized I was NEVER going to get what I wanted. I might get sex, but I would never get enthusiastic sex. I might get feedback but I would never get positive feedback. I stopped deluding myself that I was ever going to have the sort of mutually beneficial sex I had somehow thought would happen some day if I only got it right.
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