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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 11:39:05 GMT -5
First thought: From my years on these boards, people generally refer to a SM as either being entirely sexless, OR having sex less than once a month / single digits each year. For all practical purposes, your marriage is a SM. And it sounds like you still want to try to save it / want to see if you can get a spark going again. I have recovered from a SM to a better marriage, so I'll offer some thoughts from my perspective, since you may find that helpful. BTW - The first 19 1/2 years of my marriage was a SM, using that definition above. There were a few years where it was completely sexless, but most of the time it was single digits for sex each year.
If your spouse is not initiating, then either (1) SHE has an issue that she has to work through first, or (2) YOU BOTH have an issue you need to work through first. When my SM was at its worst, I didn't want reset sex or pity sex. I wanted HER to want ME. So when you mention, "How do YOU get the motivation to initiate...?"... I think the main issue (if you are like me) is that what you would really want is for HER to initiate. Correct?
My W and I could not have recovered from our SM if : (1) we hadn't had some honest conversations, and (2) we were BOTH willing to make some changes (and in doing so, admit that each of us wasn't perfect). Our counselor helped us to do that.
I think that for best results on this one you actually need to talk about some things first. The # 1 topic YOU want to have an honest conversation about is sex, of course. You can try to do this without a counselor, but you may find that you need one. If you want to try without a counselor, I'd suggest something like this: Tell her that you want to spend more quality time with her, and you miss having open and honest conversations with her (e.g. perhaps like when you were dating). Carve out 1/2 hour or 1 hour to do this. Have her lead off with something SHE wants to talk about, and then you follow it up with something YOU want to talk about. If you are able to carve out an hour (and who knows, it may lead to more than an hour), then maybe have a few easier topics to talk about first, and then after a few questions back and forth / X minutes, transition the topic to sex. Ask when was the best sex she had with you. Say that you miss that time and then ask WHEN during the week (day of the week, time of day) would be the best time for you to have sex. FYI - Our counselor drove that point home to my W when we were in counseling (e.g. "There are 168 hours in the week... there has to be SOME time in there in which you feel the least amount of stress... with the best potential to be physically intimate with your spouse."). Get her to answer this (be persistent) and then you'll get an answer that should help you get closer to getting back on track.
So much more to say, but assuming you want to try to save the marriage and try to get a spark going again, that is something I would do... among others.
TL2
I REALLY appreciate your input and perspective. In a forum where most of us just try to survive, it is nice to know it is possible to make this better. My wife out right refuses counseling. She said that is admitting the end and in her opinion will lead to divorce, like it did in her last marriage. However, she does not mind talking if the timing is right. We are normally honest, but bringing up sex is always a touchy subject. I do think it can be done and as you suggested timing is important. We are most relaxed when we are having pool time. We normally get in the pool 4 or 5 days a week. I think that is a good time to try it. However, I want to think it through and plan my approach carefully. I do want to keep the marriage together as long as we can have a decent sex life. From: Time To: Time
(ha... I had to start the message off that way)
You're welcome... Happy to share my perspective. I have a few other thoughts I wanted to share after seeing your response / some new info. Yes, pool time sounds like it would be a good time for the two of you to discuss the sex topic (probably with some other things in an "open and honest" session). If for some reason you don't make much progress in that session, at least you will have "floated" the ideas out there in your pool session, although it may take a little time for some things you say to "sink" in (pardon the puns... couldn't resist!).
Seriously though, re: trying to discuss / work things out yourselves vs. using a counselor.... and also re: trying to resolve the SM issue, my biggest additional recommendations are to let your W know that:
- This is a dealbreaker issue for you and therefore you have to ultimately find some compromise / some workable solution within a certain reasonable time (e.g. you know you're probably not going to get things resolved overnight).
- You are willing to try to work things out with just the two of you for a while, within a reasonable time, without going to a counselor. However, if you cannot resolve it yourselves within a reasonable time, then you *need* to go to a counselor (because this has grown to be a *dealbreaker* issue for you... it has gone on too long and you simply cannot live like this anymore). Then agree on what that reasonable time should be for you to work it out yourself. Discuss. My recommendation would be 1-2 months. That seems like plenty of time to me without dragging it out unnecessarily long. It's not unreasonably short (e.g. 2 weeks) but it forces it to be a priority item of discussion for you to get something resolved.
- If you end up needing a counselor, let your W know that it's not the end of your marriage, but it just means that you have an important issue that you need to work out and need some outside help. While your W may have had a bad experience from her prior marriage, reassure her to let her know that you know of other people (e.g. me, and perhaps others) who have had counseling successfully work and have a better marriage because of it. You can let your W know this now, perhaps giving her an incentive to try to work it out yourselves.
- In your best judgment, tell her either now or later when you may start counseling, that again the SM is a serious dealbreaker issue, and therefore you need to set a "reasonable time" deadline for getting it resolved with a counselor. Then discuss, again, what is a reasonable time. My recommendation would perhaps be a *maximum* amount of time that is between 3-6 months, assuming that you're doing weekly counseling. I'd probably pick double the amount of time that you tried to work this out initially yourselves. If you can't work it out with a counselor during this time, then you will separate (not necessarily divorce, but separate). You can't live like this anymore. It's a dealbreaker.
- You should *each* ask around for referrals for counselors. You probably know some people who have gone to counseling at some time. You could ask them, or ask via a church (a church that you attend and perhaps some other churches that you do not attend). The church may not offer counseling but surely they would have some referrals or recommendations. Then research and discuss the people you have referrals for, and agree to start with one.
- In conclusion... You are in the best position to get this resolved if: (1) you are willing to walk away (e.g. at least separate before potentially divorcing)... and your spouse knows this, (2) you both admit that you each are not perfect, and therefore you are both willing to change, and (3) you set deadlines that are well communicated and discussed with your spouse. Because of my prior religious beliefs on marriage & divorce (strong Christian upbringing drilled into my head in the 70s and 80s), it took me forever to internally resolve and conclude that divorce WAS an option... because I simply could not live like that anymore in a SM. I was destroying myself / I was completely broken and unhappy... angry at God and the world. But being willing to walk away is so important. It communicates on many levels to your spouse how serious this is.
One last thought: In my situation, I realized that my W was previously "happy enough" if she had daily good morning / good evening kisses from me and perhaps a few other small shows of affection during the day. So she was getting what she needed, but I was not getting what I needed. One night before going to bed I realized this, and I told her that I would not kiss her again, or touch her again, UNTIL we went to counseling. It brought tears to her eyes. The next morning when I went out the door to go to work, and walked right past her without kissing her, it was breaking her apart and brought more tears to her eyes. Result? Within a few days we were getting our list of counselors put together and then within a few weeks we had our first appointment. Bottom line: I refused my refuser to get my point across! I found something that she needed and withheld that from her. I wasn't trying to be mean, but I had to take a stand and get my point across as to how the SM was hurting me. Oh, and my ring had been off for 9 months prior to this too.
Hope this helps!
TL2
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Post by flyingsolo on Jul 23, 2018 12:12:51 GMT -5
Interesting approach and very logical. My wife and I have been in counseling for a little over a year and I am not seeing a lot of progress on the marriage though we both appear to be working on ourselves and we don't argue as much. The sex has not come back however (at all!), which concerns me after a year of marital counseling. To your point timeforliving2, perhaps I need to be more emphatic that the lack of a mutually rewarding sex life in our marriage is a dealbreaker for me and set some sort of a timeline. Right now, there isn't one and I can see this going on for the indefinite future. Sex doesn't seem to be her priority. She is looking to rebuild the emotional connection. I see that she needs that also, but I think sex needs to be a part of that process. They go hand in hand for me.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 23, 2018 14:28:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying settings boundaries and making requests isn't necessary in a relationship. I'm saying when they are said and how they are said will have an impact on how they are received by the partner. The exact timing and wording suggested are in my opinion not the way to go about it. I, and I think many people, respond better to authoritative leadership than authoritarian leadership. I'd agree with that, but with people who want to have sex just a hungry look should set things off. When people feel the need to start demanding or begging for certain actions there is something wrong already. The idea that persuasion or some certain approach is needed is foreign to me. I'm with someone because I want them that way already, I don't need words or demands to want to satisfy my partner.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 14:34:36 GMT -5
Interesting approach and very logical. My wife have been in counseling for a little over a year and I am not seeing a lot of progress on the marriage though we both appear to be working on ourselves and we don't argue as much. The sex has not come back however (at all!), which concerns me after a year of marital counseling. To your point timeforliving2, perhaps I need to be more emphatic that the lack of a mutually rewarding sex life in our marriage is a dealbreaker for me and set some sort of a timeline. Right now, there isn't one and I can see this going on for the indefinite future. Sex doesn't seem to be her priority. She is looking to rebuild the emotional connection. I see that she needs that also, but I think sex needs to be a part of that process. They go hand in hand for me.
Definitely. I think you need to have a separate / solo session with just you and the counselor. If the counselor says that, because of the joint counseling, that he/she cannot keep any secrets from your spouse, that's fine. But meet separately with the counselor and tell him / her that you are frustrated (not disappointed, but frustrated) that the SM aspect of your marriage hasn't been resolved yet in over a year, and it has *now* become a dealbreaker issue for you. You are willing to separate from your spouse within a "reasonable time" if you cannot get this resolved. You and your W will then further discuss and determine what that reasonable time is.
Your counselor - being paid hourly / per session - has a financial interest in having this continue indefinitely, correct? You need to take some control and let the counselor know that fixing dealbreaker / most important issues with your marriage is not an open-ended proposition and has limits. Tell the counselor that if you don't see some significant improvements on these key issues in the next 1 month / 4 weekly sessions (e.g. sex / physical intimacy, and emotional connection as your W's primary issue), then you are going to start looking for a new counselor. Tell the counselor that regardless, even if you stay with that counselor, if things cannot be resolved on these key issues within your reasonable time frame (e.g. say, 3-6 months) then you are going to separate.
Your counselor, armed with this knowledge, will probably want to schedule a separate session with just your W, and convey your new thoughts / resolutions to your W in his/her own way. That is *GOOD*.
Just for reference... this is how my deal worked out.. in a very quick nutshell:
- SM for 18 1/2 years (no sex for a few years, but in all other years single digits, probably on average 4x / year.
- At that point, approx. 1/1/13, I took my ring off and, in so many words told my refuser W that we *need* to get this resolved in 2013.
- Approx. late Oct 2013, I refused my refuser (would no longer kiss etc.)
- We were seeing a counselor by approx. 3rd week of November. My W and I each had separate sessions with the counselor first, then we had joint sessions thereafter. The counselor wanted to talk to each of us 1 on 1 before starting joint counseling so he'd have a good feeling of what the issues were. It was in that initial individual / private session that I told the counselor that I was willing to walk. I am *sure* that got communicated back to my W, who I know didn't want to lose me and also didn't believe in / didn't want a divorce
- For the record, I personally felt like my W would never change and this counseling attempt was going to end up being a formality before separating and then divorcing. My W had been very stubborn on this issue for our entire nearly-20 year marriage. When talking with 2 close friends prior to this point, they both asked if we had been to counseling yet, and I told them no. So I felt like I owed it to my W, my kids, and our marriage to at least try counseling and appear to make a good faith attempt to save the marriage, even though I strongly believed my W would never change. I thought that if I separated or divorced without going to counseling, that it would look bad to everyone else. Counseling seemed to be the first question that everyone was going to ask about, so if I *was* going to take that leap of separating / getting divorced, I at least wanted it to look like I tried. But again, I was almost positive my W would never change on this SM issue.
- After 6 weeks of joint counseling... that first weekend in Jan 2014... my W rolled over in bed on Saturday morning and after a few minutes of chatting, said to me something like: "why don't you shave and shower and I'll be ready for you on the bed when you get out." I couldn't believe it / just about had a heart attack. After one fast shower we had sex for the first time in about 8 months, had sex the next day on Sunday, and averaged more than weekly sex for that year.
- We continued counseling for about a year after first having regular sex again in Jan 2014. We did scale back on the frequency of counseling, though, after our SM breakthrough... we went from weekly to 2x/month to monthly to every 2 months over that next year, before stopping counseling. In 2014 I wanted to keep the counseling going because it was my "insurance" to help ensure that the sex would continue / wouldn't stop! After 6 months of sex I felt reasonably reassured that we were OK and I started wearing my wedding ring again. I intentionally did not put my ring back on right away because I was trying to make sure this wasn't reset sex.
Truth be told, my marriage (sex and otherwise) isn't as good as it could be / as I'd want it to be... and sex has slowly tapered off in the last 4 1/2 years... but I attribute that, in large part, to some rare but big health issues that our daughter has had... which took 3 1/2 years for the doctors to finally diagnose (in May this year). It's complicated and we were ready to take her out of state to Mayo Clinic, but following up, researching health issues, and coordinating all of the medical stuff for my daughter really sapped my W's energy / created a ton of stress in the household. We currently are having sex about 2-3x / month and it's almost always a predictable Saturday or Sunday morning / rarely spontaneous, but given what I've been through with the SM, it's a huge improvement / is enough sex to keep me sane / feeling normal. I had just about as much sex in 2014 as I did in the prior 19 years of marriage. Even though it's gradually dropped in frequency since 2014 it's still a lot better than what it was prior to 2014, and again, is understandable with our family's / my daughter's situation.
All the best. Hope this helps.
TL2
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Post by flyingsolo on Jul 23, 2018 15:10:45 GMT -5
I'm not saying settings boundaries and making requests isn't necessary in a relationship. I'm saying when they are said and how they are said will have an impact on how they are received by the partner. The exact timing and wording suggested are in my opinion not the way to go about it. I, and I think many people, respond better to authoritative leadership than authoritarian leadership. I completely agree. It gets frustrating when you try to express your thoughts and needs to a spouse and they keep turning it back on you however. I think wanting a mutually rewarding sex life is a completely reasonable request in a marriage. My wife just sees it as me wanting to get laid. Um, OK....
I've specifically resisted demanding or making threats because I think it's counter productive. I don't want my wife to feel like she has to have sex to fulfill some marital obligation. I want her to want to have sex to enjoy the experience and the bonding. I've tried to avoid issuing an ultimatum.
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Post by workingonit on Jul 23, 2018 15:24:21 GMT -5
I don't know if I ever told this story but TL2's story about demands made me think of it. After 5 years of marriage I almost divorced my h. At that point we had been totally sexless for 2 years and had really crappy, short, anxiety ridden sex prior to that. He had some other things about money and not wanting to work. Things were awful. I was preparing to move out and my MIL talked me into therapy first. We did some therapy and it helped. I told my h I would stay and try if a) he got a job and b) we had frequent sex that involved me having an orgasm. (Which had not happened with him until then) He said yes on both counts! I would say what followed was the best our marriage had to offer for a few years. Sex 3-4 times monthly. The sex tapered. Of course a special needs kid added stress, parental sickness, etc. You all know where this went. Within 4 years we were totally sexless again and have been since.
I am not saying your changes are not real TL2 but in my experience changes made under duress are not real, deep, permanent changes. Time will tell though.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 23, 2018 15:49:06 GMT -5
workingonit said; "I would say what followed was the best our marriage had to offer for a few years. Sex 3-4 times monthly. The sex tapered. Of course a special needs kid added stress, parental sickness, etc."
Meanwhile, the average married couple your age probably were having sex 3 times a week. Sigh.... At your age, given the state of my marriage, I probably would have been thrilled with 3-4 times a month sex even if I didn't have an orgasm. I had such low expectations. Having grown up with parents who hated each other and slept apart, the fact that my husband and I were polite and kind to each other made even yearly sex seem remarkably good to me.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jul 23, 2018 16:07:43 GMT -5
I don't know if I ever told this story but TL2's story about demands made me think of it. After 5 years of marriage I almost divorced my h. At that point we had been totally sexless for 2 years and had really crappy, short, anxiety ridden sex prior to that. He had some other things about money and not wanting to work. Things were awful. I was preparing to move out and my MIL talked me into therapy first. We did some therapy and it helped. I told my h I would stay and try if a) he got a job and b) we had frequent sex that involved me having an orgasm. (Which had not happened with him until then) He said yes on both counts! I would say what followed was the best our marriage had to offer for a few years. Sex 3-4 times monthly. The sex tapered. Of course a special needs kid added stress, parental sickness, etc. You all know where this went. Within 4 years we were totally sexless again and have been since. I am not saying your changes are not real TL2 but in my experience changes made under duress are not real, deep, permanent changes. Time will tell though.
Everyone's situation is unique... there is a ton more I could say about my situation... write a book on it no doubt. However, I think there is a difference between what I did and, for example, some of the demands that greatcoastal suggested several posts back in this chain. I personally agree with the consensus response to that / I think some of those specific demands don't work with most people (e.g. I want to have sex with you after dinner and before bedtime, I want to see you naked on the bed tomorrow morning and ready for sex, etc.).
The only "ultimatum" I gave my spouse / was that I would not kiss her / touch her again until we went to counseling. That lasted maybe two weeks and was very effective. It got us into counseling. From that point forward we handled things through counseling and it became a needed negotiation of sorts... listening to what each other needed out of the marriage to make it work, and each agreeing to do some things differently to accommodate the other's needs. One positive is that we both generally know that Sat/Sun morning is the best time for use to have sex, so we've got it in mind every weekend, without asking about it. On Friday we're pretty much talking about which day on the weekend is going to work best. On the negative side, it's almost always scheduled sex in that sense, and is rarely spontaneous. It is occasionally, but almost always a Sat/Sun morning thing.
Re: for us, will it last? Well, surprise, surprise... Now that we started having sex more regularly my W actually enjoys sex more now. She has her own female issues and it's difficult for her to orgasm (she also had stage IV endometriosis earlier where things were very painful), but that being said, she likes sex more too / she enjoys it even if she doesn't orgasm. That's our situation at least. FWIW.
TL2
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 23, 2018 16:07:49 GMT -5
We all have similar issues, but our refusers are not all the same. If I could have healed my marriage I would have. If idgaf96 could heal her marriage I would step out of the picture and be happy for her no matter how badly it hurt to do so. But, some cases are borderline, and some things just can't be fixed.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 23, 2018 16:36:11 GMT -5
I'm not saying settings boundaries and making requests isn't necessary in a relationship. I'm saying when they are said and how they are said will have an impact on how they are received by the partner. The exact timing and wording suggested are in my opinion not the way to go about it. I, and I think many people, respond better to authoritative leadership than authoritarian leadership. I completely agree. It gets frustrating when you try to express your thoughts and needs to a spouse and they keep turning it back on you however. I think wanting a mutually rewarding sex life is a completely reasonable request in a marriage. My wife just sees it as me wanting to get laid. Um, OK....
I've specifically resisted demanding or making threats because I think it's counter productive. I don't want my wife to feel like she has to have sex to fulfill some marital obligation. I want her to want to have sex to enjoy the experience and the bonding. I've tried to avoid issuing an ultimatum.
I can't like this post enough. It's not about obligation, but it doesn't seem to get across that way.
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Post by csl on Jul 23, 2018 17:15:47 GMT -5
I REALLY appreciate your input and perspective. In a forum where most of us just try to survive, it is nice to know it is possible to make this better. My wife out right refuses counseling. She said that is admitting the end and in her opinion will lead to divorce, like it did in her last marriage. However, she does not mind talking if the timing is right. We are normally honest, but bringing up sex is always a touchy subject. I do think it can be done and as you suggested timing is important. We are most relaxed when we are having pool time. We normally get in the pool 4 or 5 days a week. I think that is a good time to try it. However, I want to think it through and plan my approach carefully. I do want to keep the marriage together as long as we can have a decent sex life. She doesn't want to consider counseling because it will lead to divorce? The question to put to her is "Just what do you think the end will be if you impose celibacy on me?"
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Post by csl on Jul 23, 2018 17:20:54 GMT -5
Interesting approach and very logical. My wife and I have been in counseling for a little over a year and I am not seeing a lot of progress on the marriage though we both appear to be working on ourselves and we don't argue as much. The sex has not come back however (at all!), which concerns me after a year of marital counseling. To your point timeforliving2, perhaps I need to be more emphatic that the lack of a mutually rewarding sex life in our marriage is a dealbreaker for me and set some sort of a timeline. Right now, there isn't one and I can see this going on for the indefinite future. Sex doesn't seem to be her priority. She is looking to rebuild the emotional connection. I see that she needs that also, but I think sex needs to be a part of that process. They go hand in hand for me. At what point in the counseling are you going to have your counselor address THAT elephant?
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Post by flyingsolo on Jul 23, 2018 17:38:49 GMT -5
Oh my wife knows it's a huge issue. I raised it very early in our sessions. The counselor has recently suggested us going away for a weekend without the kids and she bristled because she indicated that I'll expect sex if we do that. Um, OK......us alone, without three kids for the first time in forever. Who wouldn't?
I've gotten more and more comfortable with the need to leave for my own personal sanity if we can't resolve this issue. God willing, I still have about half my life ahead of me and I want it to be happy and as stress free as possible, hopefully filled with great sex as long as I am capable of having it. We aren't currently setting a healthy example for our kids (sleeping in separate beds, etc.) and it is really causing me a ton of stress. I am not happy in my marriage and she probably isn't either. I still love my wife (and she claims she loves me), which is why I am still here trying to fix it. However, there comes a point where you realize someone isn't going to change their behavior and maybe they just don't want to. Right now, I am still seeing changes in her for the better, even though the sex part hasn't come back. If I don't see inroads there soon also, our paths may start to diverge. I've already consulted an attorney, so I know what I'm in for if either of us chooses that road. It will be bumpy, but hopefully livable on the other side.
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Post by ted on Jul 23, 2018 18:00:39 GMT -5
The counselor has recently suggested us going away for a weekend without the kids and she bristled because she indicated that I'll expect sex if we do that. Um, OK......us alone, without three kids for the first time in forever. Who wouldn't? How does a SM recover from a place like that? I think you're hearing it, but just to point out what that comment sounds like to someone who's not stuck in the spin-cycle of a SM: that's a 140 decibel death knell. Those words would simply never be spoken by someone who's ever going to want sex with you. Can you imagine ever, under any circumstances, holding that position? I'm sorry.
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Post by flyingsolo on Jul 23, 2018 18:23:50 GMT -5
No worries man. I'm a big boy. I have an exit plan if necessary.
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