I screwed up with The Talk....am I screwed?

@shynjdude, happy to hear your daughter is okay. What a scare. Hope you get some sleep!

"Better is good".

If, as this all unfolds, you replace 3 September 2017 as it genuinely was, with 3 September 2018 as it genuinely is and you find 3 September 2018 to be a more fulfilling thing, then surely you are making progress. In 1/365 increments.

You've already done quite a few of these incremental steps have you not ?
Like a couple of months worth ?
If that's so, then you might want to re-do your measure to 1/12 (months)
Was August 2018 - as it genuinely is - better than August 2017 as it genuinely was ?

If you get to 365/365 reviews (or 12/12) and see you are on an upward trajectory, then the evidence would suggest that things are "better".

"Better" enough for you ??
That's a question only you can answer Brother @shynjdude .

If it is going "better" than it was, then that is surely a good thing.

Now it looks like things started to move for you in early August 2018 Brother @shynjdude .
So you've had roughly 31/365 (daily) increments, or 1/12 (monthly) increments.
That's not a real lot - something like 8% of a year - so I dunno that it would pay to get too excited about it all just yet.

Were you to get to 183/365 (daily) - 6/12 (monthly) - with a sustained upward trajectory, you might be cautiously optomistic.

Hyper-honesty

I've mentioned that my discussions with Wife 2.0 have been characterized by honesty. As I think about it, we are really engaged in hyper-honesty.

I mentioned a few weeks ago that I managed to joke about my outsourcing to my wife. The reaction here was of utter disbelief. But, in retrospect, it really is not inconsistent with how we've been communicating.

Since this thread began in early July, two major things have happened to my wife. One is that she seems to have forgiven me  - really forgiven me. She isn't excusing me, she isn't letting me off the hook, but she has forgiven.

The second thing is that since the idea of my outsourcing was so shocking to her, as she didn't think I could possibly do that given my personality and background, she has been trying to figure me out. I'm clearly not the person she thought I was so she is probing - not from a position of moral superiority or anything like that, just investigating - who exactly I am. The goal is to see if I am someone she wants to be with. 

As I mentioned, I am done lying to her (well, 99%) and while we are polite to each other and sensitive not to say anything hurtful, we are building trust by being able to say what we are feeling and thinking without any fear of retribution. 

Last night she asked me what I got out of my outsourcing. What did these two women have that she doesn't have. She wanted to know if it could happen again and if there is any chance for us to make this work, and if I gained things that  I needed that she cannot fulfill, then maybe this marriage won't work out.

I answered honestly. I said that my New England AP taught me authenticity far beyond what I understood the word to mean, that her searing honesty with herself inspired me, and that she pushed me to notice when I was fooling myself so I could be more honest with myself. (I also told her that if she thinks I'm fooling myself with her, she should call me out on it.)

I said that my England AP made me feel completely and unconditionally loved, and I had never been so comfortable with anyone in my life, and that was an amazing feeling. With any other woman I would be worried that I could screw things up by saying the wrong thing, and while I sometimes did say the wrong thing to her, I knew she would always love me and we could work it out. 

My wife seemed to understand. 

I told her about the discussion here on her astonishing non-reaction to my (poor taste)  outsourcing joke. She honestly didn't understand that what she did was so unusual. She wants to understand who I am and now that is now a part of who I am.  My outsourcing is just another piece of the puzzle she's trying to put together.

She also asked me a very good question - since I have shown that I can outsource, could I do it again? Once I cross the line, is it easier for me to do it again? I again answered honestly - I would not let myself get involved with a woman online the way I did here while married, but I couldn't promise in a theoretical situation of where I'm on a business trip and working closely with a female colleague late at night that I wouldn't succumb to temptation. (In my 3.5 decades of work, nothing close to that ever happened.) 

This honesty has made her feel closer to me than ever. Last night's lovemaking session was perhaps the most intense so far in our new situation (still not close to what I know sex can be like, but getting better.) 

I am also asking her tough and honest questions - about whether this is all an elaborate reset act, and about my fears that it is. I reminded her of her previous reset that lasted six months (she gave a plausible answer.) We both have expressed fears about whether we really can fall in love for the first time with each other, only 31 years after one would have thought we already had. 

This really is an adventure, but one that I am enjoying. 

(As I checked to see if anyone on the web ever talked about hyper-honesty, I came up with a weirdo who pushes what he calls www.esquire.com/news-politics/a26792/honesty0707/ which allows you to be a jerk with everyone you met and justify it by saying you are just being honest. What my wife and I have is hyper-honesty combined with caring and respect, not the honesty that encourages you to blurt out anything you feel without regard to the feelings of the other. )

I'm not sure if I'd use the unorthodox philosophy of a guy who has been divorced 5 times as the foundation to repair my marriage.

Or to let the spirit of hyper honesty fill me? That's some fucked up and hurtful shit that will likely blow up in your face.

I understand what you are saying. After decades of a decaying marriage, brutal honesty is like a breath of fresh air.

ballofconfusion and I have what we call a "no bullshit policy". Basically it means that if something is bothering one of us, we bring it up. We talk about it.

It may come as quite a shock to regular readers of this forum, but at times I can lack tact. Unbelievable as it may sound, I assure you that it's true. There are times I say things that hurt her feelings. And there are times she hurts mine. That's what happens in a relationship.

Our no bullshit policy means that when that happens we find the next appropriate moment to discuss the issue with the other. Sometimes it is right then. Other times we choose to reflect on it a bit. But our no bullshit policy means that it always does get addressed.

There seems to me to be a difference between this and the hyper honesty you propose (and seem to practice). From your description, when your wife asks you what you liked about AP number 1 and AP number 2, she is not necessarily looking for a compare / contrast of their desirable qualities.

What she is doing is more akin to driving by the scene of a horrible accident and trying to figure out what happened. It isn't because you want to KNOW exactly how that body was broken on the side of the road. It's a morbid human curiosity many of us have.

When she asks you about your outsourcing? It sure as hell feels good to you that she knows your marketable, doesn't it? It gives you swagger. She better up her game or she might lose you for good. However, right now it seems as though SHE is the one making most of the effort and your role is to say anything that comes into your head. She WILL grow weary if that over time.

When she asks you if you would outsource again, you answer "maybe if I'm on a work trip." That isn't hyper honesty. It isn't behaving like you're trying to repair a failing marriage.

It's behaving like an asshole.

Sorry if that is harsh...just being hyper-honest.

Adopt a no bullshit policy instead. Each of you should talk about how behavior has made you feel. When she asks about your affairs? Answer that you would prefer to discuss how to repair the relationship and move forward. Be aware of just how raw both of you likely are under the surface. Be kind to her if you want to repair this. Be kind to yourself.

Mutual kindness, not "hyper honesty" is what will allow you fix the marriage if that is truly what you want.

shamwow writes:


I'm sort of laughing. I have a lot of faults but swagger isn't one of them! My adventures feel almost like a dream and I often don't think I deserve the love and caring of my former partners. And if my wife's seeming turnaround is legit, I don't think I deserve her, either.

If I would have answered that there is no way I'd ever cheat again she wouldn't believe me. And I would be lying. But I made it clear that I won't do what I did, that I would get a divorce before I would engage in an emotional or real affair again, but also that at this point in our relationship I couldn't promise that I wouldn't fall to temptation under very specific and mostly unrealistic circumstances. But I also said that as I get more secure that we are building something real, the unlikely becomes virtually impossible. Why would I risk a good marriage?

Rest assured, I am making as much of an effort as she is right now. I'm buying her gifts, I'm complimenting her, I'm selfless in bed, I'm spending time with her which means a great deal to her, because I used to avoid her.

And as I mentioned, she seemed happier that I admitted the possibility of cheating than if I would have denied it. She wouldn't have believed me if I said no way would I ever cheat again. But I certainly did not say it in a swaggering way, if anything it was a sheepish admission that, yes, the unthinkable is no longer unthinkable and I'm sorry about that.

She's testing me. And I'm testing her. If she asks me a direct question I will give a direct answer. But I'm not being an asshole, that just isn't in my DNA.