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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 17, 2017 10:10:18 GMT -5
For many, the consequences of saying that one never will engage in sex with their partner is the partner will cheat or end the marriage. That is no excuse for a refuser's withholding the truth in order to remain married or to prevent their partner's getting sex elsewhere. It's selfish and cruel. What ever prevented you from getting sex elsewhere? Marriages don't end elegantly. If the consequences of lying, or not communicating, are exactly the same as telling the truth, human nature will propel one to omit or lie. If my wife wants a serious talk, I'm available. A great time to do it was when I was in the hospital for 29 days. Just before I was discharged, she asked me if I wanted to be with someone else, and I said no. Your choice of the word refuser is interesting. Would you have been willing to experience sex from your husband with no desire? Would that have been enough? If not, how can a man give you something that is not his to give? |
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 17, 2017 10:15:55 GMT -5
"You two are entirely separate and unique sexual beings. You counselor is implying your wife should have sex with you whether she wants to or not." The counselor was suggesting compromise. We do that all of the time in relationships. We take turns selecting social activities, food to eat, when to eat. What you are implying, for instance, would be that a spouse whose job is helping support the family only go to work when they feel like it. No, the analogy would be to force a spouse to enjoy his/her job. One doesn't compromise on desire. It's either there or it isn't. That's why marriage "counseling" rarely saves marriages. I've heard that from several providers. |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 17, 2017 10:24:28 GMT -5
"What ever prevented you from getting sex elsewhere?"
When we married, we vowed to be faithful to each other. I wanted sex from my marital partner as to me, sex is an important part of marriage.
When I decided to divorce and my refuser agreed, I no longer felt bound to the marriage. Our covenant was over and each could do what they chose.
If my husband had told me outright earlier (something he never did even when we were divorcing) that he had no plans of or interest in having sex with me, I would have divorced him then. Marriage to me is more than being affable roommates.
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 17, 2017 10:26:56 GMT -5
it would seem in my case and many others before that the commitment is all my responsibility. Have sex when she wants to, stay faithful forever, accept that although she could have sex and enjoy it tonight that she won't because she is fine to just watch TV. The commitment must be on both parties shoulders and not one. You can have passion or commitment, not both. That's how I've always seen it. All the couples I know that started in balls of flame end quickly in messy divorces. I don't begrudge people what they need to feel whole, i.e. desired, attractive, sexy, whatever. Are those needs truly met in marriage, though? I have always wondered. As an institution marriage is inflexible and unforgiving. There are strict rules and boundaries. I truly believe that if we reversed the roles and I was declining invitation after invitation from my wife to have sex, I would expect her to eventually leave or cheat. Now I'm not going to say that I would be happy with that but I would honestly look at and say "what else was I seriously expecting? I can happily do it but just because I'm happy not to bother I make her go without which kills her self-esteem." A cheating woman doesn't feel much better. It's not about self-esteem. It isn't that she would want to feel desired by men in general. She would want to be desired by you.And that's why it hurts. I don't know really. This is such a complex scenario with no real answer. Nope. Most second marriages fail, too. |
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 17, 2017 10:32:24 GMT -5
"What ever prevented you from getting sex elsewhere?" When we married, we vowed to be faithful to each other. I wanted sex from my marital partner as to me, sex is an important part of marriage. When I decided to divorce and my refuser agreed, I no longer felt bound to the marriage. Our covenant was over and each could do what they chose. If my husband had told me outright earlier (something he never did even when we were divorcing) that he had no plans of or interest in having sex with me, I would have divorced him then. Marriage to me is more than being affable roommates. None of my wedding vows said anything about sex. The promises I made were to not have sex with anyone else. It sounds to me you're as angry at yourself for not leaving sooner, as you are at him. I'm for putting sexual expectations into the marital contract. No one should go into marriage blind. |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 17, 2017 10:35:30 GMT -5
"But it would seem in my case and many others before that the commitment is all my responsibility. Have sex when she wants to, stay faithful forever, accept that although she could have sex and enjoy it tonight that she won't because she is fine to just watch TV. The commitment must be on both parties shoulders and not one."
Not at all. Right now,, your wife is never having sex with her spouse. She never gets what she wants in her marriage sexually. Meanwhile, you always get what you want sexually. You have no interest or investment in providing her yourself with sexual happiness.
What you are doing is as selfish as a parent who refuses to take their little kids to playground because the parent has outgrown such activities. Most parents have outgrown enjoying playing in playground equipment but do get pleasure from seeing their kids' enjoyment.
Similarly loving spouses or partners can enjoy giving sexual pleasure to their partners. This doesn't mean always being available for sex when one had no interest. It does mean being available sometimes.
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 10:39:40 GMT -5
"But it would seem in my case and many others before that the commitment is all my responsibility. Have sex when she wants to, stay faithful forever, accept that although she could have sex and enjoy it tonight that she won't because she is fine to just watch TV. The commitment must be on both parties shoulders and not one." Not at all. Right now,, your wife is never having sex with her spouse. She never gets what she wants in her marriage sexually. Meanwhile, you always get what you want sexually. You have no interest or investment in providing her yourself with sexual happiness. What you are doing is as selfish as a parent who refuses to take their little kids to playground because the parent has outgrown such activities. Most parents have outgrown enjoying playing in playground equipment but do get pleasure from seeing their kids' enjoyment. Similarly loving spouses or partners can enjoy giving sexual pleasure to their partners. This doesn't mean always being available for sex when one had no interest. It does mean being available sometimes. So you are agreeing with why I feel it's unreasonable? |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 17, 2017 10:47:07 GMT -5
No, I don't agree the expectation it's unreasonable for one partner to unilaterally end sex in their marriage. From what I see here, most of the refused stay and don't cheat. There even have been refused here or on EP who never had had sex in their marriages of more than 10 years and also never cheated.
It was not reasonable for me to be in a SM so I divorced. Many stay and are sadly, angrily, resignedly celibate.
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 11:20:45 GMT -5
No, I don't agree the expectation it's unreasonable for one partner to unilaterally end sex in their marriage. From what I see here, most of the refused stay and don't cheat. There even have been refused here or on EP who never had had sex in their marriages of more than 10 years and also never cheated. It was not reasonable for me to be in a SM so I divorced. Many stay and are sadly, angrily, resignedly celibate. Ok that's what I was getting at in post. I feel that it may not be an obligation to have sex whenever your partner wants but marriage must surely mean there is an obligation to 'try' and at least include sex. |
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 17, 2017 12:10:22 GMT -5
I agree with that.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 17, 2017 17:44:30 GMT -5
I don't need to know everything. The problem is I get nothing. She is not evil incarnate. Take marriage out of the picture and she's a damn good woman. I respect W the architect. I respect W the mom. I respect W the productive member of society. But W the wife is dead to me. I shared much of your same thoughts/feelings about my W as well. I found myself saying in one of my original posts, "no, not her? She's not that bad.".........Deep down there was doubt. Once I started standing up for myself, giving my opinion, saying no, setting up boundaries with CONSEQUENCES , speaking up for myself in counseling, then I began to see the truth better. This takes time. Years for some of us, weeks for others. It took two or three major tipping points, (along with other nails in the coffin) to see that her manipulative controlling behavior was alive and well in all other aspects of her being. The entire family had been submitting to keep the peace for far to long. Just my own experience. many others relate, others have different circumstances. It's good for you to write these things down and read them again a season or two from now. |
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 17, 2017 17:58:46 GMT -5
Take marriage out of the picture and she's a damn good woman. I respect W the architect. I respect W the mom. I respect W the productive member of society. But W the wife is dead to me. Have you got someone else? Online or offline? |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 19:59:14 GMT -5
"What ever prevented you from getting sex elsewhere?" When we married, we vowed to be faithful to each other. I wanted sex from my marital partner as to me, sex is an important part of marriage. When I decided to divorce and my refuser agreed, I no longer felt bound to the marriage. Our covenant was over and each could do what they chose. If my husband had told me outright earlier (something he never did even when we were divorcing) that he had no plans of or interest in having sex with me, I would have divorced him then. Marriage to me is more than being affable roommates. None of my wedding vows said anything about sex. The promises I made were to not have sex with anyone else. It sounds to me you're as angry at yourself for not leaving sooner, as you are at him. I'm for putting sexual expectations into the marital contract. No one should go into marriage blind. My wedding vows said "to have and to hold". That refers to contact, even suxual contact. Now just a quick question...With the exception of very few scenarios such as very old people looking for companionship, who exactly enters a relationship or dare I say a commitment of marriage and honestly believes that sex won't form part of that relationship? I would guess that it would be under 1% of people. When you get married you are doing a lot more than "promising that you won't have sex with others". I think you have misunderstood the meaning of marriage entirely. |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 20:04:00 GMT -5
sexual desire is NOT limited to 'when you feel horny, you have sex'. Responsive desire is where you had no such hornyness but agree to start. Imagine being with a woman you're not attracted to. Like it's an arranged marriage. She wants the "horniness" to start. Even if you agree, does this "horniness" start, in you? With the foreplay comes arousal and with the arousal comes desire. But never orgasm. Or so rarely that it isn't worth the drama and emotional expense of sexual intercourse. Speaking about myself here. So instead of just acquiring more desire what I am saying in my scenario is, let's start and see if the desire for sex kicks in. The simple fact is (with my wife) it will kick in. So why won't she have sex then? Her body betrays her. It has nothing to do with you. I don't know her, obviously, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with you. Because she is perfectly happy without. Just because she gets really really in to when we do, just because she shows clear enjoyment does not override the fact that she is perfectly happy without. So therefore she will decline and go to sleep or continue doing whatever she was doing. How long have you been married? People rarely enter marriage self-aware. That awareness comes over time, if it ever does, and accrues from psychic trauma and conflict. She may have changed since those days when you did it like rabbits. why did you stop having sex with your wife if you don't mind me asking? Anyone here can ask me anything, no matter how personal. I have nothing left to lose. I didn't stop having sex with my wife. I stopped having sex, period. I've had enough. I'm done. I just got tired of always giving, and never getting. "I just got tired of always giving, and never getting" What do you mean? What weren't you getting? |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 20:31:29 GMT -5
You mention *marriageS* rather than marriage - singular - Brother celibatejoe. Presumably there have been a few. I'm in my third marriage at present. you raise a compelling point, where you say - "From what I read here, the prevailing opinion is that people without sexual desire for their spouses should simply acquire more. How does that work, exactly?" Clearly, one cannot simply *manufacture* sexual desire... in oneself, or more particularly in another person. Which I figure is your whole point. A wife can fail to understand or fail to believe it's even possible for a man to lose sexual desire. She would rather believe there is anger, depression, or something else going on in a husband's mind, something that can be therapized away, obstructing sexual desire for her. And it is a highly relevant point when looking at the issue of a sexless marriage from the opposite side of the pancake (where most of the membership of this group resides) My purpose isn't to inflame. My purpose is to point out there are separate psychologies for men and women. Any refused spouse would do well to read what you have been writing, particularly those who are trying to manufacture desire in their recalcitrant spouses. It's a road going nowhere. There are pills for blood flow, but not desire. Even if there were, I wouldn't take it. I hope you do not come in for a kicking here Brother celibatejoe. I think your thoughts on this issue are highly relevant and of great potential value to the group. Thanks. There are pills for blood flow, but not desire. Even if there were, I wouldn't take it. Wow! This says it all. Even if there was a pill that increased your desire, you would not take it? She has to accept you for you right? |
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