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Post by shamwow on Aug 15, 2017 13:03:45 GMT -5
Reading some of the threads and posts on this site it is truly heart breaking to see the pattern of being refused sexual contact that so many people are trapped in. I never really appreciated that other people were in a similar situation. Although i feel strongly for everyone who lives in such pain and humiliation, really there isn't a reasonable way out, but isn't that partly the whole point of it - that there is no way out and doesn't the refuser know this. People obviously in such turmoil. A sexual desire that cannot even be shown or allowed. The refuser starts to sound more like the abuser to me. I personally don't trust that refusers male or female don't know exactly what they are doing and that they don't derive some sort of pleasure or benefit from it. When you think about it you could laugh it off but when i think more carefully it starts to sound more sinister. Definitely on a par with adultery or extortion. What if you could prove that a spouse deliberately refused sex for years in order suppress their partner, for power or control over them. For me my sex drive needs a channel at times, either physical relief, flirtation or some kind of fun, but in a sexless marriage I can't do anything. The other day an attractive member of the opposite sex walked by so for a change i smiled and we started chatting. I would have slept with them but I had to get going, or i would be missed, back to someone who refuses me. So I don't normally smile. Whats the point ! I am not a free person. There are some legitimate situations when a sexless marriage may be "OK" - Both parties have a similarly-aligned low libido and agree that sex is not important to either. - A legitimate doctor-diagnosed medical condition precludes PIV sex. However, unless that condition is paralysis, other avenues of satisfying your partner are available (hell, even if paralyzed the mouth still works). - You and the refusing spouse have an otherwise happy marriage, have talked about it, and outsourcing is OK. There are also illegitimate reasons as well - Partner doesn't has a low libido and has unilaterally decided that sex is not important. - Partner got married for the trappings of marriage, but did the "bait and switch" thing on intimacy until the words "I do" were uttered. - Sex should only be for procreation (whether squeamish about the act itself or some kind of religious thinking) - Safety / Security / Status is much more important than actually keeping the marriage healthy Most of us here, by definition, fall into the illegitimate reasons category. But there are no legitimate reasons why unilateral refusal is acceptable (or smart...the unfulfilled partner will eventually cheat or leave). As my sister said when I told her about my SM and that I was getting a divorce: "She refused to sleep with you for 3 years? What the fuck did she think would happen?" |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 16, 2017 10:31:38 GMT -5
Reading some of the threads and posts on this site it is truly heart breaking to see the pattern of being refused sexual contact that so many people are trapped in. I never really appreciated that other people were in a similar situation. Although i feel strongly for everyone who lives in such pain and humiliation, really there isn't a reasonable way out, but isn't that partly the whole point of it - that there is no way out and doesn't the refuser know this. People obviously in such turmoil. A sexual desire that cannot even be shown or allowed. The refuser starts to sound more like the abuser to me. I personally don't trust that refusers male or female don't know exactly what they are doing and that they don't derive some sort of pleasure or benefit from it. When you think about it you could laugh it off but when i think more carefully it starts to sound more sinister. Definitely on a par with adultery or extortion. What if you could prove that a spouse deliberately refused sex for years in order suppress their partner, for power or control over them. For me my sex drive needs a channel at times, either physical relief, flirtation or some kind of fun, but in a sexless marriage I can't do anything. The other day an attractive member of the opposite sex walked by so for a change i smiled and we started chatting. I would have slept with them but I had to get going, or i would be missed, back to someone who refuses me. So I don't normally smile. Whats the point ! I am not a free person. There are some legitimate situations when a sexless marriage may be "OK" - Both parties have a similarly-aligned low libido and agree that sex is not important to either. - A legitimate doctor-diagnosed medical condition precludes PIV sex. However, unless that condition is paralysis, other avenues of satisfying your partner are available (hell, even if paralyzed the mouth still works). - You and the refusing spouse have an otherwise happy marriage, have talked about it, and outsourcing is OK. There are also illegitimate reasons as well - Partner doesn't has a low libido and has unilaterally decided that sex is not important. - Partner got married for the trappings of marriage, but did the "bait and switch" thing on intimacy until the words "I do" were uttered. - Sex should only be for procreation (whether squeamish about the act itself or some kind of religious thinking) - Safety / Security / Status is much more important than actually keeping the marriage healthy Most of us here, by definition, fall into the illegitimate reasons category. But there are no legitimate reasons why unilateral refusal is acceptable (or smart...the unfulfilled partner will eventually cheat or leave). As my sister said when I told her about my SM and that I was getting a divorce: "She refused to sleep with you for 3 years? What the fuck did she think would happen?" Exactly! I do believe that are a lot of refuser' out there who are refuser' by virtue of choice. They aren't incapable of having or enjoying sex, simply they are perfectly happy completely without or with the odd scattering of sexual encounters when they feel unusually horny. |
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Post by solitarysoul on Aug 16, 2017 10:33:59 GMT -5
There are some legitimate situations when a sexless marriage may be "OK" - Both parties have a similarly-aligned low libido and agree that sex is not important to either. - A legitimate doctor-diagnosed medical condition precludes PIV sex. However, unless that condition is paralysis, other avenues of satisfying your partner are available (hell, even if paralyzed the mouth still works). - You and the refusing spouse have an otherwise happy marriage, have talked about it, and outsourcing is OK. There are also illegitimate reasons as well - Partner doesn't has a low libido and has unilaterally decided that sex is not important. - Partner got married for the trappings of marriage, but did the "bait and switch" thing on intimacy until the words "I do" were uttered. - Sex should only be for procreation (whether squeamish about the act itself or some kind of religious thinking) - Safety / Security / Status is much more important than actually keeping the marriage healthy Most of us here, by definition, fall into the illegitimate reasons category. But there are no legitimate reasons why unilateral refusal is acceptable (or smart...the unfulfilled partner will eventually cheat or leave). As my sister said when I told her about my SM and that I was getting a divorce: "She refused to sleep with you for 3 years? What the fuck did she think would happen?" Exactly! I do believe that are a lot of refuser' out there who are refuser' by virtue of choice. They aren't incapable of having or enjoying sex, simply they are perfectly happy completely without or with the odd scattering of sexual encounters when they feel unusually horny. Or they have lost the ability to feel horny for a variety of medical reasons... |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 16, 2017 10:43:28 GMT -5
Exactly! I do believe that are a lot of refuser' out there who are refuser' by virtue of choice. They aren't incapable of having or enjoying sex, simply they are perfectly happy completely without or with the odd scattering of sexual encounters when they feel unusually horny. Or they have lost the ability to feel horny for a variety of medical reasons... Absolutely but that falls in to the medical side that was mentioned in the post. I know that my W can not claim that one. |
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Post by shamwow on Aug 16, 2017 14:58:37 GMT -5
Exactly! I do believe that are a lot of refuser' out there who are refuser' by virtue of choice. They aren't incapable of having or enjoying sex, simply they are perfectly happy completely without or with the odd scattering of sexual encounters when they feel unusually horny. Or they have lost the ability to feel horny for a variety of medical reasons... Just a subtle point...a medical issue is only a medical issue if it is diagnosed by a doctor and presumably a course of treatment is prescribed (if available). Many of the "Medical Issues" cited in these forums are a convenient excuse laid out by a partner who won't get the issue formally diagnosed or, God forbid, treated. |
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 16, 2017 16:54:14 GMT -5
I'm new here. It's interesting to see the other points of view.
I stopped having sex with my wife about 5 years ago. The frequency had been declining for years before that. I just couldn't fake it any more.
From what I read here, the prevailing opinion is that people without sexual desire for their spouses should simply acquire more.
How does that work, exactly?
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Post by darktippedrose on Aug 16, 2017 18:33:28 GMT -5
I haven't had sex in around 4 years now. Nothing. before that, I got it once every 3-5 months. We only had 3-4 good years of sex. to be honest.
I'm going to go with the fact that it IS abuse. Its more than just being incompatible.
there are days when my husband acts like nothings wrong and its completely normal. there are those rare moments when my husband knows and admits that he's done it intentionally, and doesn't particularly care.
He doesn't want to recover the relationship because he's lazy and that takes too much work.
its not just incompatability - if it was, they'd be okay with an open relationship. but they're not. And thats the truth.
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 16, 2017 19:03:11 GMT -5
I haven't had sex in around 4 years now. Nothing. before that, I got it once every 3-5 months. We only had 3-4 good years of sex. to be honest. I'm going to go with the fact that it IS abuse. Its more than just being incompatible. there are days when my husband acts like nothings wrong and its completely normal. there are those rare moments when my husband knows and admits that he's done it intentionally, and doesn't particularly care. He doesn't want to recover the relationship because he's lazy and that takes too much work. its not just incompatability - if it was, they'd be okay with an open relationship. but they're not. And thats the truth. Is that what you want -- an open relationship? |
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Post by celibatejoe on Aug 16, 2017 23:56:45 GMT -5
I'm new here. It's interesting to see the other points of view. I stopped having sex with my wife about 5 years ago. The frequency had been declining for years before that. I just couldn't fake it any more. From what I read here, the prevailing opinion is that people without sexual desire for their spouses should simply acquire more. How does that work, exactly? Welcome celibatejoe , You shouldn't be faking. You should not start back faking. The question is, why were you faking? It may come as a shock to some, but it's extremely easy for a man to fake attraction. I learned how to do it a long time ago and have been doing it most of my adult life. (I'm 58 now.) Why was I faking? That's a good question. I hadn't really thought about it until I decided to simply stop having sex to see if I even missed it. I found I didn't, and then I started going over why I even bothered all those thousands of times (literally) I had sexual intercourse. I think it has to do with all the rejections I endured from women whose love I so desperately wanted. Such was my self-esteem, then, that I entered into marriage with anyone who wanted to marry me. They all seemed like good choices at the time. I also had to prove to myself, unconsciously, that I would be a better husband than my biological father was to my mother, and be a better father to my kids than he was to my brother and me. I learned in analysis that such is called a mother-complex. Just my luck. I had lots of sex and my marriages went many years, but I never really connected emotionally, and still don't, with sexual partners. Having studied sex and the unique sexual desires of my partners, I was able to please them, over and over. But I rarely climaxed and if I did it required a lot of concentration and active imagination. I can't think of a single encounter, even illicit ones, that was any better than masturbation. I say this to my enduring shame. It may have something to do with the extreme neglect I endured as a child. No tactile stimulation, no words of succor or comfort, no bond at all with my mother. She was cold as ice to her kids, and even to her grandchildren (my kids) until the day she died. She was unrepentant to the end. In retrospect she had nothing to work with. She was born in Vienna in the middle of the second world war, met her future husband at age 13, conceived me at 16 and bore me at age 17. I understand all that, and can make peace with it, but I am what I am now. Stunted. I feel for the wives here neglected for no good reason by their husbands. I would never do that to my current wife if I had a choice. I just don't have it in me to do it any more. The plumbing works fine, and I still get feelings, but they're not for her, so I keep them to myself. I am not sex-averse. I know how to please her, and have offered, but she wants desire, not pleasure, and that is something I can't provide. I hope that makes sense to some of you. |
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Post by baza on Aug 17, 2017 0:22:41 GMT -5
You mention *marriageS* rather than marriage - singular - Brother celibatejoe . Presumably there have been a few. Anyway, you raise a compelling point, where you say - "From what I read here, the prevailing opinion is that people without sexual desire for their spouses should simply acquire more. How does that work, exactly?" Clearly, one cannot simply *manufacture* sexual desire... in oneself, or more particularly in another person. Which I figure is your whole point. And it is a highly relevant point when looking at the issue of a sexless marriage from the opposite side of the pancake (where most of the membership of this group resides) Any refused spouse would do well to read what you have been writing, particularly those who are trying to manufacture desire in their recalcitrant spouses. It's a road going nowhere. I hope you do not come in for a kicking here Brother celibatejoe . I think your thoughts on this issue are highly relevant and of great potential value to the group. There could be all sorts of "whys" as regards the absence of desire in a person, but it is what it is. Desire is either in a relationship, or it ain't. And if it ain't, then you can't concoct it or manufacture it. |
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 17, 2017 1:22:24 GMT -5
I am not sex-averse. I know how to please her, and have offered, but she wants desire, not pleasure, and that is something I can't provide. I hope that makes sense to some of you. I'm on the other side of this coin, so I can attest that affection and willingness are no substitute for desire. It's like reopening a wound every time you try, so I get her logic. |
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Post by merrygoround on Aug 17, 2017 1:23:23 GMT -5
celibatejoe, you have every right to decide how you wish to live your life. You have been honest with yourself and honest on here about your lack of desire and the possible reasons for that. One thing - if your wife ever asks why I BEG you to be totally honest with her. That you have no desire for her as a lover. Don't lie, cover up, back track - just be honest. Please don't put her through years of misery and why-chasing if she wants a sexual relationship with you. It's the most soul crushing, confidence destroying, life sucking situation and warrants explanation and honesty at the outset - not a couple of decades on as it was for me to finally find out the truth .
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Post by nolongerlonely on Aug 17, 2017 3:53:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure why you would want to fake attraction celibatejoe. I maybe missing something here, but if you are happy enjoying yourself via a masturbation scenario then you are also experiencing some form of sexual desire. A relationship should be about sharing - feelings, emotions, sensations, and life in general. Any true partnership of this kind in my opinion requires some mutual sexual chemistry in order to survive. The only way I can visualise it being successful outside of that fundamental bond between the two partners can in my opinion only work as shamwow points out, if both partners have zero libido and agree an existence based around companionship. But if one of you enjoys the act of sex, the same rush of pleasure you get from your masturbation, then I just cant see how it can survive. Its a lie. And the refusees, (ie most of us here on this forum) are the sufferers. Because our spouses/partners dont tell us the truth, so we constantly question our ability to satisfy their desires. And as we continue to fail we slip easily into a state of self-criticism. And of course with it comes the inevitable result, looking elsewhere for what we lack.Whether acted out or not, we then condemn ourselves, as both society and religious beliefs view this act of 'lust' as a sin,but in reality the people at fault/ the ones who have sinned are the refusers, because they lied at the wedding vow stage. In this case, very sadly, the refuser appears to be you. The refusee may also begin to suffer depression, self-regression, complete introversion, because we slowly believe we are the partner at fault. And sadly sometimes our refusers reinforce the lie by telling us just that.Perhaps you could take a few moments to consider the needs of your spouse, and discuss it with her. If you have the tiniest bit of respect for her, she at least deserves that. I'm still baffled by your desire to fake attraction. Is it to massage your ego, or to cover up your true sexuality, or financial. Whatever causes you to do it, I wish you would face your demons and confront it, perhaps to release yourself from whatever it is, or to unleash your spouse from a world of refusal. So, to get back onto the topic of the thread, yes, i think a sexless marriage has every potential to be abusive. It may not start out that way, but if the refusing partner achieves his or her objective to control the relationship physically, control in other areas of the relationship begins to emerge. The refusing partner gains strength as the refused loses it. And thats where all the abuse starts. Because the refusee is stripped of his or her sexuality, and begins to question, if I may quote a Monty Python film, the meaning of life. It puts the refuser into a very strong position, and thats when the abuse kicks in. Thats why we are all here, to try to help each other through it. Some of us leave, some of us stay. I tried staying for 28 years, I knew there were ominous signs at early stages of the marriage. But my wife refused to discuss it, and both control and abuse followed. Learning retrospectively from my own (now adult) daughter that my wife 'didnt care' reinforced my mind that my decision to leave was the right one. With hindsight, I've had years of abuse. And it all started with refusal. |
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Post by rejected101 on Aug 17, 2017 4:36:30 GMT -5
I'm new here. It's interesting to see the other points of view. I stopped having sex with my wife about 5 years ago. The frequency had been declining for years before that. I just couldn't fake it any more. From what I read here, the prevailing opinion is that people without sexual desire for their spouses should simply acquire more. How does that work, exactly? Firstly welcome! I don't think that people are saying simply acquire more desir (certainly not what I am saying). I have read that much research has been done in this over the last 50 years and it has been found that sexual desire is NOT limited to 'when you feel horny, you have sex'. Responsive desire is where you had no such hornyness but agree to start. With the foreplay comes arousal and with the arousal comes desire. So instead of just acquiring more desire what I am saying in my scenario is, let's start and see if the desire for sex kicks in. The simple fact is (with my wife) it will kick in. So why won't she have sex then? Because she is perfectly happy without. Just because she gets really really in to when we do, just because she shows clear enjoyment does not override the fact that she is perfectly happy without. So therefore she will decline and go to sleep or continue doing whatever she was doing. why did you stop having sex with your wife if you don't mind me asking? |
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Post by solitarysoul on Aug 17, 2017 6:44:02 GMT -5
Celibatejoe, I totally get it....for me, I have explored this idea in the thread about "losing it" in the sexuality folder...
I also feel like I have faked attraction too much. I spent all my years before 30 being rejected by women I was attracted to and finding the only women who were interested in me were ones I had no interest in. It was soul crushing. Maybe I too was ego-stroking but at the same time I also felt the need to find someone who wanted me... The constant rejection or 1 date and then rejection was going to kill me ( yes, I have faced suicide a few times in my life).
I too have never really connected. It was mostly a physical activity. While I have only had sex a couple dozen times in my whole life (40+), never have experiences put me on top of any mountain. I guess that's why I just use masturbation and get by in my SM......
Many (even my W) would say I have missed out on a lot in life...and now I feel it winding down....and I face my demon and where I ended up.... Clearly the lesser.
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