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Post by jim44444 on Jul 13, 2017 20:17:32 GMT -5
I'd like to see some actual evidence that that is "quite often true". I understand why someone young, idealistic and naive would think that. But everything I think I've learned since I first googled "sexless marriage" many years ago suggests if it isn't right in the beginning, it will never get better. (never being near zero, 0.0001% chance = never in this context) The caveat is they are both willing to "work on it". Too often in these posts one party will not work on the relationship. In spite of the heroic efforts of one of the parties the relationship is doomed if both are not working on it. I do see evidence of this in northstarmom and WindSister in how their relationships have progressed. When something came up their partners were onboard with resolving any issue in order to sustain the relationship. I do agree that there are relationships that are unfixable but I believe those are a minority. And just because something is fixable does not imply it will be fixed. It may be optimal for both parties to not fix a fixable relationship. Of course as always I may just be full of shit. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 13, 2017 20:25:40 GMT -5
I'd like to see some actual evidence that that is "quite often true". I understand why someone young, idealistic and naive would think that. But everything I think I've learned since I first googled "sexless marriage" many years ago suggests if it isn't right in the beginning, it will never get better. (never being near zero, 0.0001% chance = never in this context) The caveat is they are both willing to "work on it". Too often in these posts one party will not work on the relationship. In spite of the heroic efforts of one of the parties the relationship is doomed if both are not working on it. I do see evidence of this in northstarmom and WindSister in how their relationships have progressed. When something came up their partners were onboard with resolving any issue in order to sustain the relationship. I do agree that there are relationships that are unfixable but I believe those are a minority. And just because something is fixable does not imply it will be fixed. It may be optimal for both parties to not fix a fixable relationship. Of course as always I may just be full of shit. northstarmom and awakeforthedance appear to be in fantasy relationships. Any "problems " they've reported here are rather inconsequential in the scheme of things. "I do agree that there are relationships that are unfixable but I believe those are a minority." If you think relationships that exhibit severe sexual dysfunction early on are MOSTLY fixable I'd really like to see some evidence. Because I've never found any. I'm sorry but I can't take your word on this without some details. |
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Post by baza on Jul 13, 2017 20:57:53 GMT -5
Everyone owns their choices, and everyone wears the consequences of their choices. Your spouse chose to lie by ommission in the early part of your deal, witholding relevant information from you. Those chickens may be about to roost on him now, years later. And he will own that. For your part, you went along with the marriage, and you own that choice, and the consequences that ensue from it, and those consequences that are still ensuing from it, and those consequences that are yet to ensue from it. Thing is, you made your choices on incomplete information. He witheld critical information from you, so you get a partial "pass" on your choice back then. However, as soon as this missing information became known to you, your partial "pass" lapsed. At that point, you WERE in possession of ALL the facts and in a position to undertake a full review of the facts, and, if you wanted, to choose again. Of course by then, other complicating factors had emerged via "acts of God" thus complicating the position further, and making your choices that much harder. But unfortunately, you (or me, or anyone else) don't get a pass on making horribly difficult choices. No-one gets a pass. It reads like his lying by ommission started this all off. And, if you want, you can blame him. But, apportioning blame ain't going to help bring this thing to resolution. What WILL bring this situation to resolution is you gathering all the facts, all the now known information, undertaking a sober. objective and (as far as possible) unemotional assessment of the facts - and making a fully informed choice based on what is in your longer term best interests. And, it is a fucking hard and harsh and unpleasant prospect to do this. Choice is a bitch. But no-one gets a pass. No-one gets to "sit this one out". If you can not - or will not - choose, then outside forces will make the choice for you, and you can bet your life on the fact that these outside forces will be making the choices that are in THEIR best interests, not yours. You are NOT a victim here Sister choosinghappy . What you are is a frightened person facing monumentally difficult choices - pretty much like everyone else in this group is going through or has been through. |
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Post by WindSister on Jul 14, 2017 8:12:29 GMT -5
The caveat is they are both willing to "work on it". Too often in these posts one party will not work on the relationship. In spite of the heroic efforts of one of the parties the relationship is doomed if both are not working on it. I do see evidence of this in northstarmom and WindSister in how their relationships have progressed. When something came up their partners were onboard with resolving any issue in order to sustain the relationship. I do agree that there are relationships that are unfixable but I believe those are a minority. And just because something is fixable does not imply it will be fixed. It may be optimal for both parties to not fix a fixable relationship. Of course as always I may just be full of shit. northstarmom and awakeforthedance appear to be in fantasy relationships. Any "problems " they've reported here are rather inconsequential in the scheme of things. "I do agree that there are relationships that are unfixable but I believe those are a minority." If you think relationships that exhibit severe sexual dysfunction early on are MOSTLY fixable I'd really like to see some evidence. Because I've never found any. I'm sorry but I can't take your word on this without some details. Hey now -- it's no fantasy! I assure you. (said with a smile) I try to keep things real but I also don't want to air everything because, well, I don't have to. I love and respect my husband and if there's something we have to work on, we work on it. I don't really bring it up here unless it's after-the-fact and I am sharing for an example. I don't recall sharing many problems here, though - our "two week dry spell" was not a problem, it just freaked this gal out because of my past with Sexlessness in marriage. He responded appropriately and we have been in our groove since. It's not a fantasy to have a partner who is willing to work on things with you, though, it really isn't. And, there aren't any "inconsequential" problems - those suckers add up if you don't address them, head on. Resentment then builds. Once resentment builds, there's really no saving anything because how can you love someone you resent?? |
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Post by WindSister on Jul 14, 2017 8:23:07 GMT -5
This philosophy helped me to not feel like a victim. I do not know if it's true because you don't know what's going on in another person's head but I chose to believe it at the end of my marriage and it helped me to not feel like a victim. "My husband loved me the best way that he was capable of". Those are the words. My H did do some loving things through the years: flowers, jewelry, cards, took me out to dinners, movies, a few vacations but after years and years of a lack of affection, intimacy, and attention those THINGS meant less and less and we grew apart and the romantic love perished. "My husband loved me the best way he was capable of". I hope it helps. Yes. People can scoff at "Love Languages" but that stuff is real. If someone is loving you in a language you don't appreciate, you DON'T FEEL LOVED. Point blank. My love language is words of affirmation and touch. So is my husbands. Not gifts, not service. He can ignore a gift for me on V-day and I could give a rat's ass (we actually don't exchange gifts). But he hugs me and kisses me and has sex with me and tells the world he loves me? I am the luckiest woman on the planet in my mind. I would say most of us here share a love language of TOUCH, for sure. If our spouses don't value or need it? They will never understand or be able to give you what you need. I want to give you kudos for exploring counseling, but the sad reality is, people don't change that easily (if at all). I am sorry, I know it's hard. Wishing you the best. |
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Post by shamwow on Jul 14, 2017 8:46:53 GMT -5
"We are starting couples therapy in a few days and I intend to try to learn as much as I can about his wants and needs (or lack thereof) and how he envisions our marriage moving forward. If that vision does not work for me then I have a decision to make." That statement really bothers me. He has made it quite clear how he envisions the marriage moving forward. Without sex or physical intimacy of any kind. He has made it clear in his actions, and upon being pressed, he has expressed it in words. What could couples therapy possibly do to solve YOUR PROBLEM? You are still focused on him. To the detriment of yourself. And beware of someone that bills a couple of hundred per hour as long as you are willing to stay in the game. They don't make any money by telling you your husband is effectively asexual and there is near zero chance of making you happy. They'd rather bill $10K or far more giving it the ole college try. On your nickel. The best that can come out of counseling is that the counselor convinces you to be happy in your misery. Been there, done that. There are stories here where a couple had a happy sex life for 10 years or more, and suddenly it goes flat. Those people could use some counseling. They had something that worked, and now it's broke. You are different. Your husband was broken long before you ever met him. You would be better served to find an INDIVIDUAL counselor to help you determine why you are so reluctant to correct such an obvious mistake. More tough love. Some people might think I've exceeded some boundaries but you wanted tough love. I wish someone had grabbed me by the shoulders when I was your age and given me a good shake. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ @lonelywife read this reply over and over again. There is great wisdom here, even coming from a guy who looks like a starfish. |
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Post by iceman on Jul 14, 2017 9:14:56 GMT -5
This philosophy helped me to not feel like a victim. I do not know if it's true because you don't know what's going on in another person's head but I chose to believe it at the end of my marriage and it helped me to not feel like a victim. "My husband loved me the best way that he was capable of". Those are the words. My H did do some loving things through the years: flowers, jewelry, cards, took me out to dinners, movies, a few vacations but after years and years of a lack of affection, intimacy, and attention those THINGS meant less and less and we grew apart and the romantic love perished. "My husband loved me the best way he was capable of". I hope it helps. That's a really good way to look at things. I have no doubt that my W loves me to the best of her ability. But her ability to love me just isn't what I want or need and I have to accept and deal with that. |
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Post by hopingforachange on Jul 14, 2017 9:18:42 GMT -5
This philosophy helped me to not feel like a victim. I do not know if it's true because you don't know what's going on in another person's head but I chose to believe it at the end of my marriage and it helped me to not feel like a victim. "My husband loved me the best way that he was capable of". Those are the words. My H did do some loving things through the years: flowers, jewelry, cards, took me out to dinners, movies, a few vacations but after years and years of a lack of affection, intimacy, and attention those THINGS meant less and less and we grew apart and the romantic love perished. "My husband loved me the best way he was capable of". I hope it helps. Yes. People can scoff at "Love Languages" but that stuff is real. If someone is loving you in a language you don't appreciate, you DON'T FEEL LOVED. Point blank. My love language is words of affirmation and touch. So is my husbands. Not gifts, not service. He can ignore a gift for me on V-day and I could give a rat's ass (we actually don't exchange gifts). But he hugs me and kisses me and has sex with me and tells the world he loves me? I am the luckiest woman on the planet in my mind. I would say most of us here share a love language of TOUCH, for sure. If our spouses don't value or need it? They will never understand or be able to give you what you need. I want to give you kudos for exploring counseling, but the sad reality is, people don't change that easily (if at all). I am sorry, I know it's hard. Wishing you the best. The love languages is a quick and easy to comprehend way to understand the other person and more importantly, your self. There is also a follow up to this called Apology Language. My love language is Physical Touch and Acts of Service. While my W's is Words of Affirmation and Quality Time. Score wise, we are almost opposite. The only thing we both don't rank high is receiving gifts. Her learning about the love languages made her realize that I honestly don't care what she says, I only care what she does. And for me to understand what I do means nothing to her, she needs to hear how I feel. Our opposite languages continue into apologizing. The W's is Expressing Regret and Accept Responsibility. So, she needs to know that I feel bad for causing her pain and admit my guilt and accept my mistake. Her's is done all thru talking and expressing emotions. Mine is Make Restitution and Genuinely Repent. Just saying "I's Sorry" doesn't work for me, she needs to makeup for what she did wrong (using my love language) and a desire to change to prevent it from happening in the future. So, drag me to bed and make it all about me, (touch and act of service), and change your actions to prevent it from happening again. She doesn't even need to say a word to apologize to me. But knowing the languages, is very helpful to quickly get into the mindset of what the other person wants. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 14, 2017 9:19:00 GMT -5
This philosophy helped me to not feel like a victim. I do not know if it's true because you don't know what's going on in another person's head but I chose to believe it at the end of my marriage and it helped me to not feel like a victim. "My husband loved me the best way that he was capable of". Those are the words. My H did do some loving things through the years: flowers, jewelry, cards, took me out to dinners, movies, a few vacations but after years and years of a lack of affection, intimacy, and attention those THINGS meant less and less and we grew apart and the romantic love perished. "My husband loved me the best way he was capable of". I hope it helps. That's a really good way to look at things. I have no doubt that my W loves me to the best of her ability. But her ability to love me just isn't what I want or need and I have to accept and deal with that. Yeah it's tough but it brings some peace. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 14, 2017 9:56:56 GMT -5
Lots of talk here on this post about being a victim, and now love languages. Let me say that these things can be so subtle, hidden, and manipulated, that it takes years to realize what is truly happening.
My dog just came running in to the room to give me his daily morning love. (not to compare dogs to humans) However the dog gives first, and receives back attention through touch. It's really a valuable lesson that I think is safe to say, many of us learned growing up by having a pet. Even if you squeeze the dog to hard or accidentally hurt the dog somehow, what does the dog do? Instantly forgives you, and shows it by giving you kisses and jumps, or lays all over you,... touch.
Meanwhile I watch how my spouse treats the dog, and how the dog responds. My spouse gives the dog the least amount of touch and attention second behind her father who also lives with us. ( My wife's dog lived outside, and was not allowed in the house. He was a little dog too)
In turn they are the last person the dog sits with or goes to. My spouse also made sure she would be the one to give the dog a treat, every morning. ( She doesn't feed the dog, trim the dog, give the dog walks, swim with the dog, or take him to the vet) The dog has done nothing. Just be present, and she will give the dog his daily morning treat ( baby carrots). It's like buying his love. (the same thing her father does with our children).
Similar to what my wife does everyday with our relationship, and her responsibilities in raising a family. She does very little, except go to work and pay the bills. All sitting at a desk on a computer. Even when she is single and all the kids have left the nest, she will still be going to her job. Yet she wants words of affirmation for going to work everyday.
Now the teens are firing back with, "we go to school 35 hrs a week, and work, and have sports, and do all these things around the house? what do you do?" So yea,... they see it and know it.
So back to the "dog analogy". It seems everyone I know has had a dog, and /or was raised with one. So how did, or does, that person treat the dog? How do they treat you? Loving a dog is not that much of a selfless act. It's about giving back. An area my spouse is terrible at. it's all about giving and taking, ts about control.
Perhaps another red flag to notice in the game of life?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 14, 2017 11:41:23 GMT -5
"True. Not to mince words, but "victim" implies helplessness; being trapped and unable to avoid one's plight. I don't know that any of us are truly victims, though we've had varying degrees of unfair shit thrust upon us. We can choose to stay, or choose to leave; both can be miserable options, but at least one of them solves the immediate problem."
Yes. The only true victim I have seen here or on Experience Project (the previous version of ILIASM) was a woman from the Middle East who was in an arranged marriage with a man in London. She was living with her husband and in-laws. Her husband never had had sex with her. Not. One. Time. Her in-laws refused to let her leave the house. Ever. If she somehow were to manage to leave and return to her home country, she would never be able to remarry, her family would be shamed, and she'd be shunned, she said due to her culture's traditions.
Everyone else had choices, very difficult choices in some cases, but they still had far more control of their lives than she did.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 14, 2017 12:16:10 GMT -5
I really like the ideas in this post. Its true that choosinghappy had incomplete information. And this was a bad hand that was played to her. I'd like to challenge that idea a little though because I dont think having incomplete information gives you a pass on being a victim. It might be hurtful and disrespectful if someone chooses to be dishonest or unwilling to disclose critical information. But there is a thing called intuition which life gives us. Its important to act on intuition when all the information is not on the table. At the very least, force a discsussion orask the probing questions. In my eyes, failing to act on intuition is a conscious choice. In life, in general, we always have incomplete information. But we have our intuition to fill in the gap. Trust your gut people. Better to err on the side of caution in matters of the heart, no? Everyone owns their choices, and everyone wears the consequences of their choices. Your spouse chose to lie by ommission in the early part of your deal, witholding relevant information from you. Those chickens may be about to roost on him now, years later. And he will own that. For your part, you went along with the marriage, and you own that choice, and the consequences that ensue from it, and those consequences that are still ensuing from it, and those consequences that are yet to ensue from it. Thing is, you made your choices on incomplete information. He witheld critical information from you, so you get a partial "pass" on your choice back then. However, as soon as this missing information became known to you, your partial "pass" lapsed. At that point, you WERE in possession of ALL the facts and in a position to undertake a full review of the facts, and, if you wanted, to choose again. Of course by then, other complicating factors had emerged via "acts of God" thus complicating the position further, and making your choices that much harder. But unfortunately, you (or me, or anyone else) don't get a pass on making horribly difficult choices. No-one gets a pass. It reads like his lying by ommission started this all off. And, if you want, you can blame him. But, apportioning blame ain't going to help bring this thing to resolution. What WILL bring this situation to resolution is you gathering all the facts, all the now known information, undertaking a sober. objective and (as far as possible) unemotional assessment of the facts - and making a fully informed choice based on what is in your longer term best interests. And, it is a fucking hard and harsh and unpleasant prospect to do this. Choice is a bitch. But no-one gets a pass. No-one gets to "sit this one out". If you can not - or will not - choose, then outside forces will make the choice for you, and you can bet your life on the fact that these outside forces will be making the choices that are in THEIR best interests, not yours. You are NOT a victim here Sister choosinghappy . What you are is a frightened person facing monumentally difficult choices - pretty much like everyone else in this group is going through or has been through. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 14, 2017 14:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 14, 2017 16:47:32 GMT -5
greatcoastal I read the article. If you are under impression that the author's relationship described here in any way resembles my marriage then I've done an awful job of trying to describe it. I do understand the value of thinking about tipping points (which I have reached) and breaking points (which I may not have yet) but beyond that I had a hard time seeing the relevance to my particular situation.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 14, 2017 18:20:16 GMT -5
greatcoastal I read the article. If you are under impression that the author's relationship described here in any way resembles my marriage then I've done an awful job of trying to describe it. I do understand the value of thinking about tipping points (which I have reached) and breaking points (which I may not have yet) but beyond that I had a hard time seeing the relevance to my particular situation. I thought of you when it comes to tipping points and breaking points. Also how many of us end up "duty bound" due to our values concerning marriage. There's also your past descriptions of his controlling denial, of blame, but more of how you should handle yourself. I could be wrong. In any case I want it to be helpful for you in your future. |
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