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Post by shamwow on Jul 11, 2017 16:37:14 GMT -5
Why should an asexual feel shame? I don't feel shame for having a high sex drive. I believe that this is how one is wired, and there is little that can be done to fundamentally change it (barring later medical issues and such). However, what they should be ashamed as fuck (pun intended about) is being asexual, and in a desire to get married and usually have a family, snare someone into a lifelong commitment they are unwilling to hold their end up on. For that, they should absolutely feel shame, but seldom do. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing when you think about it (more pun intended). You are exactly right. A person may not know he/she is asexual until he/she is married. But I have come to the conclusion that when a person realizes that he/she is asexual, the only unselfish thing to do is to divorce. There is no reason to sentence a sexual person to a celibate life or a life with limited or bad sex. The asexual should just tell the other person that he/she is just not the right person & peacefully divorce. Is this before or after pigs are outfitted with jetpacks? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 17:09:40 GMT -5
You are exactly right. A person may not know he/she is asexual until he/she is married. But I have come to the conclusion that when a person realizes that he/she is asexual, the only unselfish thing to do is to divorce. There is no reason to sentence a sexual person to a celibate life or a life with limited or bad sex. The asexual should just tell the other person that he/she is just not the right person & peacefully divorce. Is this before or after pigs are outfitted with jetpacks? Jetpacks are too easy. IT would be after they evolve feathers & wings. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2017 23:01:00 GMT -5
" I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. " beachguy - I wonder why the denial? Do you know if this is a common thing for asexuals? When I have asked my H if he is asexual the question seemed to tick him off but he would never answer anything other than "I don't know". Well, I'm pretty sure *I* know... Do asexuals feel shame about this? I can't really answer your question because most of the insight I have on asexual thinking is necessarily from those that do at least self-identify. Shame? Hard to answer that but for sure they often have great difficulty arriving at the conclusion that they are asexual. But at least among those that post on AVEN, once they start self identifying they seem to get much more comfortable with it. But without that "support group" it may be quite different? As far as my wife, when she denied it she was backed into a corner during a very long argument. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Jul 12, 2017 14:35:18 GMT -5
No, the lack of self-worth is only partially due to the SM. While the SM has made it worse, I've carried a lack of set-worth for most of my life. I can name off the top of my head probably 20 things I've screwed up or done wrong. I can probably only think of 5-10 accomplishments. It's sadly the way I'm wired. And while I'm now in therapy for that and other issues, I've been this way so long I can't remember ever feeling different. I can easily name 20 things that i have screwed up, and i might not even be able to name one thing that i have done right. Ever. But, i will be damned if i ever let myself feel defective or less of a man on the basis of what my stbx thinks again. I just won't see myself as unworthy anymore. Well, by "accomplishments" I mean, I got a BSME, I got my pilot's license, I have no credit card debt, that sort of "accomplishment". Not like 'I discovered the cure for cancer'. And in stark contrast to most here, my wife is one of my biggest cheerleaders. If your spouse/partner is constantly putting you down, you've a much larger problem than an SM. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Jul 12, 2017 14:48:41 GMT -5
Got some thoughts on this bit Brother scrimshaw - "No, the lack of self-worth is only partially due to the SM. While the SM has made it worse, I've carried a lack of set-worth for most of my life. I can name off the top of my head probably 20 things I've screwed up or done wrong. I can probably only think of 5-10 accomplishments. It's sadly the way I'm wired. And while I'm now in therapy for that and other issues, I've been this way so long I can't remember ever feeling different."
After your first (of 20 poor and 10 good) choices, did you put your cue in the rack and stop making choices ? Clearly, the answer to that has to be "no", as you moved on and made choice #2, #3 and so on. All the way up to #30 (that being the choice to stay in your ILIASM deal) And, as time passes, you will make choice #31, #32, #33 and so on. There's no getting around this matter of choice. You can't decide to not play, because all that means is that you allow other people to make your choices for you, and you shall wear the consequences of the choice just as surely as if you had chosen it yourself. What comes along with this obligation of choice, is the sure and certain knowledge that you (or me or anyone) is NOT going to get them all *right*. Oftentimes, it proves necessary to revisit a past choice (that has produced sub-optimal consequences) and re-evaluate that past choice, and where possible, reverse it. Choice is a bitch. But it is also the only game in town, and no-one gets a pass on it. No-one gets to "sit this one out". Oh, I'm not talking about choices here. My screw ups are stuff like not finishing my master's degree, not dating a lot more before getting married the first time, let alone the second, stuff like that. Lots are first world problems. But I'm wired to exaggerate my failures and minimize my successes internally. It's just the way I am. I'm in violent agreement that not choosing is still making a choice. My choice (with a couple short-lived exceptions) has been, and remains, to stay. I don't deny that's making an active choice at all. Choosing drastic change is very difficult in the best of circumstances, let alone in very much gray situations. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Jul 12, 2017 15:02:29 GMT -5
I've read a lot of stories on AVEN, written by self identifying asexuals, and how they ensnared their sexual partners but now they no long want to have sex. And they don't believe they need to because... - It's their body and no one can have sex with them unless they want to (fair enough of course) - There is no expectation of sex in a marriage (WTF?  ? but this is a BFD point with asexuals) - There is no value in sex, no bonding. - Their sexual partner does not have a NEED, just a selfish desire. As opposed to their "legitimate need" to only have sex when or if they want. They give lip service to the idea of "compromise" but it must meet their needs not to have "coerced sex" or whatever. Which means the compromise is either total celibacy or nearly so. Anyone here recognize any of this in their partner? Anyone who knowingly pretends to be interested in sex in order to basically trick someone into getting married is, in my armchair PhD opinion, at least borderline sociopathic, if not full-on. There is simply no other explanation for being so uncaring about another person's feelings. Why should marriage be any different from any other aspect of life? If you say you have enough money to buy a car, and then after you have the car, say "well, no I was just saying that to get the car", you don't get to keep the car. They reposes that sucker. And what cognitive dissonance is necessary to claim simultaneously that (a) there is no expectation of sex in a marriage; (b) there is no value or bonding in sex; and (c) once you're married, you can no longer have sex with anyone else. If (a) and (b) are true, then there's no logical reason to object to extra-marital sex, since as there's no bonding associated with sex, you can't get attached to someone else through sex. That's not dysfunction, that's a mental illness. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 12, 2017 15:29:03 GMT -5
I've read a lot of stories on AVEN, written by self identifying asexuals, and how they ensnared their sexual partners but now they no long want to have sex. And they don't believe they need to because... - It's their body and no one can have sex with them unless they want to (fair enough of course) - There is no expectation of sex in a marriage (WTF? ? but this is a BFD point with asexuals) - There is no value in sex, no bonding. - Their sexual partner does not have a NEED, just a selfish desire. As opposed to their "legitimate need" to only have sex when or if they want. They give lip service to the idea of "compromise" but it must meet their needs not to have "coerced sex" or whatever. Which means the compromise is either total celibacy or nearly so. Anyone here recognize any of this in their partner? Anyone who knowingly pretends to be interested in sex in order to basically trick someone into getting married is, in my armchair PhD opinion, at least borderline sociopathic, if not full-on. There is simply no other explanation for being so uncaring about another person's feelings. Why should marriage be any different from any other aspect of life? If you say you have enough money to buy a car, and then after you have the car, say "well, no I was just saying that to get the car", you don't get to keep the car. They reposes that sucker. And what cognitive dissonance is necessary to claim simultaneously that (a) there is no expectation of sex in a marriage; (b) there is no value or bonding in sex; and (c) once you're married, you can no longer have sex with anyone else. If (a) and (b) are true, then there's no logical reason to object to extra-marital sex, since as there's no bonding associated with sex, you can't get attached to someone else through sex. That's not dysfunction, that's a mental illness. "That's not dysfunction, that's a mental illness." I'm not arguing science or psychology, I'm just laying out what is. If that's mental illness, then they are all mentally ill. Or at least most of them. As far as your cognitive dissonance, basically even though asexuals do not value sex or understand the value of sex, they are very well aware of the fact that many or most sex starved marriages end in divorce when the sexual spouse finds someone they can fall in love with and fuck. Just like you not understanding them, they may not understand us, but they know damned well that what is, is, and their marriage is always in jeopardy. Particularly if their sexual spouse escapes their leash. As far as your borderline sociopathic, well, just count all the bait N switches done here. Go count them on AVEN. What is, is. One other thing I've noticed on AVEN is that it is VERY RARE for an asexual over there to empathize with their sexual spouse. It is all about "me" and how do I maintain a relationship with a sexual person without actually having much (preferably no) sex. It is inordinately selfish. But it is what it is. I think this is an important issue because I see a lot of misunderstanding of this mindset here, or at least a failure to see it as it really is. A number of people here argue that most of our spouses are not actually asexual, they are just in unhappy marriages caused by other issues. That may well be. BUT, the fact is that the attitudes and behaviors of our spouses is, for the most part, indistinguishable from what I see on AVEN. So regardless of the labeling and regardless of the actual psychology involved, the end result is identical. Your wife may be a porn star to anyone she would date off a dating site, but as far as you are concerned, her behavior and apparent attitude might as well be a full blown asexual. And that includes all the dissonances. That's just my take on things. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 12, 2017 15:35:16 GMT -5
scrimshaw , you brought up a lot of interesting logical disconnects that would make for some interesting discussions on AVEN. Go knock yourself out, but if you press, you will likely end up getting ejected from the forum. There may be some things they are uncomfortable addressing... and at best arguing with them will not be terribly different than arguing with your wife about all this. Which is the point I tried to make  ETA: It is, quite arguably, against their ToS to argue some or all of this stuff...
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Post by scrimshaw on Jul 12, 2017 17:42:54 GMT -5
Anyone who knowingly pretends to be interested in sex in order to basically trick someone into getting married is, in my armchair PhD opinion, at least borderline sociopathic, if not full-on. There is simply no other explanation for being so uncaring about another person's feelings. Why should marriage be any different from any other aspect of life? If you say you have enough money to buy a car, and then after you have the car, say "well, no I was just saying that to get the car", you don't get to keep the car. They reposes that sucker. And what cognitive dissonance is necessary to claim simultaneously that (a) there is no expectation of sex in a marriage; (b) there is no value or bonding in sex; and (c) once you're married, you can no longer have sex with anyone else. If (a) and (b) are true, then there's no logical reason to object to extra-marital sex, since as there's no bonding associated with sex, you can't get attached to someone else through sex. That's not dysfunction, that's a mental illness. As far as your cognitive dissonance, basically even though asexuals do not value sex or understand the value of sex, they are very well aware of the fact that many or most sex starved marriages end in divorce when the sexual spouse finds someone they can fall in love with and fuck. Just like you not understanding them, they may not understand us, but they know damned well that what is, is, and their marriage is always in jeopardy. Particularly if their sexual spouse escapes their leash. As far as your borderline sociopathic, well, just count all the bait N switches done here. Go count them on AVEN. What is, is. One other thing I've noticed on AVEN is that it is VERY RARE for an asexual over there to empathize with their sexual spouse. It is all about "me" and how do I maintain a relationship with a sexual person without actually having much (preferably no) sex. It is inordinately selfish. But it is what it is. So, they don't actually believe (b), despite claiming it to be true. Oh, I understand them just fine. I run into similar people all the time, trying to justify two contradictory stances to favor themselves, not caring one whit about how anyone else on the planet feels except them. Because their needs are obviously far more important than anyone else's. Yep, totally common. I'm not about to argue with people utterly convinced of their own superiority. I'm not superior because I need sex any more than they are because they don't. People who choose to leave their marriages are not superior to me because I choose not to. Being different does not automatically imply one is better than the other. ETA: My wife would agree with the first point, bodily autonomy, as would I. The rest she would dismiss as quickly as you and I. But she didn't do bait and switch. At worst, she omitted the fact that sex had always been at least partially painful for her (in her case, I'm pretty sure it's always been mostly physical, it's fairly common for DES daughters). While frequency had certainly been deteriorating, we last had sex at 12+ years of marriage. We just celebrated 20 earlier this year. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 12, 2017 17:51:21 GMT -5
As far as your cognitive dissonance, basically even though asexuals do not value sex or understand the value of sex, they are very well aware of the fact that many or most sex starved marriages end in divorce when the sexual spouse finds someone they can fall in love with and fuck. Just like you not understanding them, they may not understand us, but they know damned well that what is, is, and their marriage is always in jeopardy. Particularly if their sexual spouse escapes their leash. As far as your borderline sociopathic, well, just count all the bait N switches done here. Go count them on AVEN. What is, is. One other thing I've noticed on AVEN is that it is VERY RARE for an asexual over there to empathize with their sexual spouse. It is all about "me" and how do I maintain a relationship with a sexual person without actually having much (preferably no) sex. It is inordinately selfish. But it is what it is. Oh, I understand them just fine. I run into similar people all the time, trying to justify two contradictory stances to favor themselves, not caring one whit about how anyone else on the planet feels except them. Because their needs are obviously far more important than anyone else's. Yep, totally common. I'm not about to argue with people utterly convinced of their own superiority. I'm not superior because I need sex any more than they are because they don't. People who choose to leave their marriages are not superior to me because I choose not to. Being different does not automatically imply one is better than the other. 1. They do not value sex 2. They do generally highly value monogamy (except for the relatively few who are poly in some way) 3. Therefore they do generally value celibacy. Highly. There is a purity to a celibate relationship, free of sex that interferes with the emotional bond. I'm not making this stuff up. That's my assessment. And no sarcasm here. This is why we can't win and there is no point in trying. At least for those where there was serious sexual dysfunction early in the relationship. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Jul 12, 2017 17:55:57 GMT -5
So, they don't actually believe (b), despite claiming it to be true.Oh, I understand them just fine. I run into similar people all the time, trying to justify two contradictory stances to favor themselves, not caring one whit about how anyone else on the planet feels except them. Because their needs are obviously far more important than anyone else's. Yep, totally common. I'm not about to argue with people utterly convinced of their own superiority. I'm not superior because I need sex any more than they are because they don't. People who choose to leave their marriages are not superior to me because I choose not to. Being different does not automatically imply one is better than the other. 1. They do not value sex 2. They do generally highly value monogamy (except for the relatively few who are poly in some way) 3. Therefore they do generally value celibacy. Highly. There is a purity to a celibate relationship, free of sex that interferes with the emotional bond. I'm not making this stuff up. That's my assessment. And no sarcasm here. This is why we can't win and there is no point in trying. At least for those where there was serious sexual dysfunction early in the relationship. So, then (b) is two separate things. Value, and bonding. I can understand not seeing the "value" in sex, particularly if you don't want (any more) children. But they don't actually believe there is no bonding through sex or they wouldn't object to extra-marital sex. I think we're generally in agreement. |
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Post by beachguy on Jul 12, 2017 18:08:45 GMT -5
1. They do not value sex 2. They do generally highly value monogamy (except for the relatively few who are poly in some way) 3. Therefore they do generally value celibacy. Highly. There is a purity to a celibate relationship, free of sex that interferes with the emotional bond. I'm not making this stuff up. That's my assessment. And no sarcasm here. This is why we can't win and there is no point in trying. At least for those where there was serious sexual dysfunction early in the relationship. So, then (b) is two separate things. Value, and bonding. I can understand not seeing the "value" in sex, particularly if you don't want (any more) children. But they don't actually believe there is no bonding through sex or they wouldn't object to extra-marital sex. I think we're generally in agreement. Not necessarily. They believe that "sexual needs" are not needs at all, but simply selfish desire. They don't want their sexual partners going off fucking someone else, satisfying their selfish desires (NOT needs!!) with someone else because they know from their experience and others that that leads to losing their victim partner. As best I have been able to understand their thinking, which can be quite convoluted. |
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 13, 2017 6:14:20 GMT -5
" But I'm wired to exaggerate my failures and minimize my successes internally. It's just the way I am."
And you can change. Everything changes. If your black and white thinking is due to depression, the right antidepressant migh t help you see things differently.
Maintaining a gratitude or metta journal (you write down daily what you do to support and help others and yourself) might change your way of thinking. Volunteer work or meditation also could help.
You can't change the past. You can learn from it and make better choices.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jul 13, 2017 8:58:08 GMT -5
So, they don't actually believe (b), despite claiming it to be true.Oh, I understand them just fine. I run into similar people all the time, trying to justify two contradictory stances to favor themselves, not caring one whit about how anyone else on the planet feels except them. Because their needs are obviously far more important than anyone else's. Yep, totally common. I'm not about to argue with people utterly convinced of their own superiority. I'm not superior because I need sex any more than they are because they don't. People who choose to leave their marriages are not superior to me because I choose not to. Being different does not automatically imply one is better than the other. 1. They do not value sex 2. They do generally highly value monogamy (except for the relatively few who are poly in some way) 3. Therefore they do generally value celibacy. Highly. There is a purity to a celibate relationship, free of sex that interferes with the emotional bond. I'm not making this stuff up. That's my assessment. And no sarcasm here. This is why we can't win and there is no point in trying. At least for those where there was serious sexual dysfunction early in the relationship. The intent here is an interesting thing to take apart. For example, my wife, i believe, is garden variety asexual. I don't know why and it doesn't matter. I don't believe that she had an intent to bait and switch, but she certainly believed somewhere in herself that by her sheer need for control she could steer things toward celibacy as quickly as possible. As much as she appears to value celibacy, she would never admit to being asexual. She believes that she just hasn't found the right person to emotionally open up to to actually want a sexual relationship. In my case, she intended to cut me off and it was my fault for not doing the right things to make her want to have a sexual relationship. In my opinion she won't find what she claims she is looking for, because she really doesn't want to. She wants a combination of voluntary servitude and a conjugate willingness to gladly accept celibacy. Yet she claims that this isn't the case and that she is perfectly normal in a sexual sense. So, i think there is a lot of dishonesty and denial involved, but maybe not always an intent to be dishonest to a partner. The dishonesty is to the asexual's own self in refusing to admit what he/she really wants. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 13, 2017 12:12:12 GMT -5
For those within a celibate marriage and still fancying themselves "monogamous" and "faithful", it's difficult to discern whether or not the absence of sexual desire between the married partners is due to aesexuality or simply a disconnection with one partner. Being married and faithful, but not desiring one's partner, generally presents itself as "not being into sex".
The control test of this is what happened prior to the marriage and since the marriage.
Whether or not there is a reciprocal desire due to aesexuality or dysfunction, it will manifest in an absence of sexual desire within the marital relationship. The only practical difference seems to be in what happens AFTER the relationship is concluded and there are no expectations of celibate fidelity. In either circumstance, there is no difference within the marriage itself.
This leaves the partner with unrequited desire in the same place that anyone with unrequited desire is in. You can argue rights, needs, shoulds, what you deserve etc, but they don't create desire. Those arguments are best aimed at oneself, as motivation to look authentically at what marriage brings to the table at all, compared to some other relationship format.
If you love each other, for example, I might suggest a relationship format could be "amicable ex-spouse" or "co-parent."
That makes room in your life for a crack at getting what you so compellingly argued you deserve, serving your reasonable needs, and who finds value and possibility in a reciprocal intimate arrangement.
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? but this is a BFD point with asexuals)
