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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 16:17:31 GMT -5
I'm starting to think Beachguy has a point about asexuals. I think many of us on here are married to asexuals or very low libido spouses
I noticed that my wife finds men attractive but is never sexual attracted. In my readings, this can be common for asexuals. My wife has also in the past told me how I just had sex four days ago. I should not want sex again. That I'm insatiable and no woman could satisfy me. I don't consider once or twice a week insatiable.
I never thought of my wife as asexual but the more I read. It seems she may be on the spectrum. I think many other spouses on here are on the asexual spectrum.
I've found that once my wife gets going. She's into having sex but otherwise she is fine without sex. There is a clear lack of desire but the physical parts still work. I've been a giving lover to my wife. She never had an orgasm or masturbated until she met me. This should have been a red flag for me. She jumped into our relationship and was very sexual with me. This is why I thought she could not be an asexual.
Although, it seems common on here, that spouses were getting sex regular before marriage. I'm starting to realize that she may be an asexual but hid it from me until after her fertile years.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 10, 2017 16:55:32 GMT -5
@heraclitus , aside from the fact that nothing you've ever described about your wife precludes her from being a full-on asexual, according to AVEN's generally accepted definition, consider their definition of Grey-asexuality: "Sexuality is not black and white; some people identify in the gray (spelled "grey" in some countries) area between asexual and sexual. People who identify as gray-A can include, but are not limited to those who:
-do not normally experience sexual attraction, but do experience it sometimes
-experience sexual attraction, but a low sex drive
-experience sexual attraction and drive, but not strongly enough to want to act on them
-people who can enjoy and desire sex, but only under very limited and specific circumstances"
That last part in bold (emphasis mine)..."but only under very limited and specific circumstances"... cynical me reads it as a code word that says "such as ensnaring a sexual partner in a committed relationship (read: marriage with children) and then leaving them high and dry". Cynicism aside, nothing in that statement precludes a grey-A from fucking their way to a ring on their finger and then leaving their partner high and dry. Till Death or Divorce Do Them Apart. At least on AVEN some consider grey-A fully part of the asexual spectrum but others do not. As far as I'm concerned that's just a labeling game they like to play. But Grey-A is "sexually dysfunctional" as far as we label things and that's all that matters. I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. I believe that because she is absolutely not sexual in any way I could consider normal, but she never quite fit into fully asexual. But it's so close that I'm not really in a position to judge that (only she can). I've read a lot of stories on AVEN, written by self identifying asexuals, and how they ensnared their sexual partners but now they no long want to have sex. And they don't believe they need to because... - It's their body and no one can have sex with them unless they want to (fair enough of course) - There is no expectation of sex in a marriage (WTF?  ? but this is a BFD point with asexuals) - There is no value in sex, no bonding. - Their sexual partner does not have a NEED, just a selfish desire. As opposed to their "legitimate need" to only have sex when or if they want. They give lip service to the idea of "compromise" but it must meet their needs not to have "coerced sex" or whatever. Which means the compromise is either total celibacy or nearly so. Anyone here recognize any of this in their partner? |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jul 10, 2017 18:48:54 GMT -5
@heraclitus , aside from the fact that nothing you've ever described about your wife precludes her from being a full-on asexual, according to AVEN's generally accepted definition, consider their definition of Grey-asexuality: "Sexuality is not black and white; some people identify in the gray (spelled "grey" in some countries) area between asexual and sexual. People who identify as gray-A can include, but are not limited to those who:
-do not normally experience sexual attraction, but do experience it sometimes
-experience sexual attraction, but a low sex drive
-experience sexual attraction and drive, but not strongly enough to want to act on them
-people who can enjoy and desire sex, but only under very limited and specific circumstances"
That last part in bold (emphasis mine)..."but only under very limited and specific circumstances"... cynical me reads it as a code word that says "such as ensnaring a sexual partner in a committed relationship (read: marriage with children) and then leaving them high and dry". Cynicism aside, nothing in that statement precludes a grey-A from fucking their way to a ring on their finger and then leaving their partner high and dry. Till Death or Divorce Do Them Apart. At least on AVEN some consider grey-A fully part of the asexual spectrum but others do not. As far as I'm concerned that's just a labeling game they like to play. But Grey-A is "sexually dysfunctional" as far as we label things and that's all that matters. I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. I believe that because she is absolutely not sexual in any way I could consider normal, but she never quite fit into fully asexual. But it's so close that I'm not really in a position to judge that (only she can). I've read a lot of stories on AVEN, written by self identifying asexuals, and how they ensnared their sexual partners but now they no long want to have sex. And they don't believe they need to because... - It's their body and no one can have sex with them unless they want to (fair enough of course) - There is no expectation of sex in a marriage (WTF? ? but this is a BFD point with asexuals) - There is no value in sex, no bonding. - Their sexual partner does not have a NEED, just a selfish desire. As opposed to their "legitimate need" to only have sex when or if they want. They give lip service to the idea of "compromise" but it must meet their needs not to have "coerced sex" or whatever. Which means the compromise is either total celibacy or nearly so. Anyone here recognize any of this in their partner? Um, yeah. Like all of it. Oh well, not my problem anymore. |
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Post by lwoetin on Jul 10, 2017 20:08:31 GMT -5
Everything made sense except for the last sentence. Marriage is more than just sex, and you and your spouse care for one another. But you threw in the end your lack of self-worth. Is that the price of staying in a sexless marriage? No, the lack of self-worth is only partially due to the SM. While the SM has made it worse, I've carried a lack of set-worth for most of my life. I can name off the top of my head probably 20 things I've screwed up or done wrong. I can probably only think of 5-10 accomplishments. It's sadly the way I'm wired. And while I'm now in therapy for that and other issues, I've been this way so long I can't remember ever feeling different. I haven't accomplished much either. It's not a big deal though. No one cares anyway. What I want is to do nothing really. |
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Post by baza on Jul 10, 2017 21:19:48 GMT -5
Got some thoughts on this bit Brother scrimshaw - "No, the lack of self-worth is only partially due to the SM. While the SM has made it worse, I've carried a lack of set-worth for most of my life. I can name off the top of my head probably 20 things I've screwed up or done wrong. I can probably only think of 5-10 accomplishments. It's sadly the way I'm wired. And while I'm now in therapy for that and other issues, I've been this way so long I can't remember ever feeling different."
After your first (of 20 poor and 10 good) choices, did you put your cue in the rack and stop making choices ? Clearly, the answer to that has to be "no", as you moved on and made choice #2, #3 and so on. All the way up to #30 (that being the choice to stay in your ILIASM deal) And, as time passes, you will make choice #31, #32, #33 and so on. There's no getting around this matter of choice. You can't decide to not play, because all that means is that you allow other people to make your choices for you, and you shall wear the consequences of the choice just as surely as if you had chosen it yourself. What comes along with this obligation of choice, is the sure and certain knowledge that you (or me or anyone) is NOT going to get them all *right*. Oftentimes, it proves necessary to revisit a past choice (that has produced sub-optimal consequences) and re-evaluate that past choice, and where possible, reverse it. Choice is a bitch. But it is also the only game in town, and no-one gets a pass on it. No-one gets to "sit this one out". |
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 10, 2017 21:53:30 GMT -5
" I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. " beachguy - I wonder why the denial? Do you know if this is a common thing for asexuals? When I have asked my H if he is asexual the question seemed to tick him off but he would never answer anything other than "I don't know". Well, I'm pretty sure *I* know... Do asexuals feel shame about this? |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jul 11, 2017 2:15:34 GMT -5
Thank-you beachguy I will defer to your experience and hell if I have the statistics right. I think there are two camps Camp 1: The Spouse (H or W) is avers to sex in GENERAL not specific to any individual Camp 2: The Spouse (H or W) is averse to sex but ONLY with their SPECIFIC spouse but not others. My assessment is the majority of SM is due to SPECIFIC individual of the spouse and not Anti-Sex with the world. Somewhere in that mix is High libido vs. Low Libido, and actual medical /psychological conditions (past abuse, biological problem, etc.) In my case it was Specific - though my W definitely had a much lower libido - she still could have in a healthy non-dysfunctional relationship a somewhat normal sex life and intimacy - but not the two of us. In your case, was it "General" or "Specific" ? A medical condition or something? OK, let's take your Camp 2. Let's say the marriage went sexless shortly after the wedding, which happened to me and is very common here. If this is camp 2 then the refusing newlywed is averse only to their spouse but otherwise has a normal functional sex drive. Now explain to me WHY a person with a normal functional sex drive would enter into a monogamous relationship with someone they have no plans to have sex with. Under what scenario would they do that? Why would they commit themselves to a pre-planned lifetime of celibacy? Let's leave out someone intending to outsource regularly to satisfy their sexual needs. I've spent considerable time contemplating this question because it is clear to me that on my wedding day my W had no intention of anything near a "normal" sex life. And for clarity I don't consider once a month a normal, healthy sex drive but feel free to agree to disagree on that if you wish. In my mind the "Camp 2" no intention of having a normal sex life would be actually then "Camp 1" where the W has a GENERAL aversion to Sex and extremely low libido. If this is quite common here then I would say the GENERAL sex aversion is much more common. As I humbly mentioned I do not know the statistics. All I know for sure is there are two camps : the "GENERAL" aversion to sex resulting in SM and the SPECIFIC ONLY to spouse aversion. Maybe the results are 50/50 - I dont know. I suppose then your W never had a healthy sex life with anyone? Then that would be a GENERAL aversion to Sex and she has an SM with whoever she is with. I think "healthy normal" would be say 2 times a month at least (Again I am guessing) as we all know the official SM is 10 times or less a year. Feedback? |
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Post by McRoomMate on Jul 11, 2017 2:21:21 GMT -5
@mcroommate, you say your wife has a "somewhat normal but low libido". I tried to find your sexual history somewhere in your posts but it seems to be scattered about. Please tell me how low her libido is. As best you understand her, what is (was) her preferred frequency? (before the toxicity set in- during the good days that lead up to marriage, or maybe the first year of marriage, or whatever) I have a specific reason for asking this. For the first months of the relationship it was say once a day. Then say after six months it was once a week. Then somehow got to once a month. Then became after say 2 years or so - SM like every year, every 6 months, the record was 18 months with no sex. I remember her saying to me that normal sex life is once a week per her experience. I was shattered. That was about 1 year into the relationship. I stopped asking because it was like a duty for her. And that was no fun. The strange thing was she would never really ask me. We had one "burst" of sex every day for about 2 weeks to conceive our 2nd child and then sexless again for months ata time. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 11, 2017 3:02:19 GMT -5
Do asexuals feel shame about this? Probably for similar reasons that we feel shame that our spouses don't desire us. It's not perceived as normal. People judge. In many cases, their only point of reference for normal is themselves. Sure, we see plenty of sexuality in entertainment, etc., but it's generally assumed to be exaggerated for effect. But their definition of "exaggerated" is very different from ours. So, unless someone's already found the asexual community and identified with it, they probably have the view that asexuality is abnormal. Nobody's eager to label themselves "abnormal". |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 10:50:39 GMT -5
scrimshaw, I've known you for a few years so I know some of your backstory; and AFAIC, you have no reason to feel bad about yourself; you are better than you think you are. You have done better than most people would do in a very bad situation. These deals where somebody has health problems can be heartbreaking. The person with the health problem takes precedence; they sort of have to. But with the care and concern of the whole world for the needs of the sick person - the healthy member of the couple often gets entirely forgotten. I've gone through this twice in my life now. When I was a child, my brother had some problems, and needed more attention and care than I did. As an adult, I now look back and see it from other people's perspectives, and I don't lay blame. I honestly think my parents were doing the best they could with what they had. So, no lifelong resentments - but it did leave a mark on me. Then, my SM situation. Unlike many people here, our sex life stayed good for the whole first 6 or 7 years of the relationship. Then he had health problems, including back surgery, depression, and maybe a possible minor dependence on prescription painkillers. Having health problems changes people. Because they're in a lot of pain, they are literally unable to see much, beyond their own pain. Yes, they can be incredibly selfish. This is not entirely their fault. One terrible thing that illness or pain does to people, is that it takes over their lives and their minds, and renders them incapable of thinking about anybody else's needs. That's the excruciating part. The sick person isn't doing it on purpose to hurt us. But that's the effect, anyway. Spouses and family members suffer neglect; they are not getting the things they would get in a relationship or family where everybody was normal and healthy. I've often said that if I suddenly became very wealthy, I'd start a foundation specifically to help spouses and families of people with serious problems. Not to help the sick person. They've already got the American Cancer Society, the American Heart Association, etc. My organization would help spouses and family members, whose lives are changed by somebody else's illness. And, after my own experience, I feel that the sane, loving, moral thing for any sick person to do (if they cannot meet their partner's needs) is to stop insisting on monogamy. There are so many ways to live and do relationships. We need to allow for some of them, and stop being so fixated on monogamy.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 11, 2017 12:05:49 GMT -5
Health problems suck. That's a bad hand.
I think it can be useful to reframe the terms of discussion to distinguish between "relationship" and "marriage". We have lots of different kinds of intimate but non-sexual relationships.
Does your definition of marriage include a sexual element? Does hers? When you think of what it means to be a married couple, does that involve a sexual relationship?
What differentiates your present description and intention from that of, say, amicably separated spouses? I have what might be called a "close separation" with Mrs Apocrypha. We are technically married and share more time than most under the same roof. I refuse to sleep/cuddle in the same bed with her because I find it makes me prone to confusion and discomfort. That's not really so different from when I considered myself married. I have a longer term intention to increase separation, but I still consider her part of my family (extended) as the mother of my kids. It's a role I hadn't conceived prior to finding myself here, but it feels a much more authentic representation of the relationship, with more reasonable and realistic goals.
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Post by McRoomMate on Jul 11, 2017 15:36:13 GMT -5
@heraclitus , aside from the fact that nothing you've ever described about your wife precludes her from being a full-on asexual, according to AVEN's generally accepted definition, consider their definition of Grey-asexuality: "Sexuality is not black and white; some people identify in the gray (spelled "grey" in some countries) area between asexual and sexual. People who identify as gray-A can include, but are not limited to those who:
-do not normally experience sexual attraction, but do experience it sometimes
-experience sexual attraction, but a low sex drive
-experience sexual attraction and drive, but not strongly enough to want to act on them
-people who can enjoy and desire sex, but only under very limited and specific circumstances"
That last part in bold (emphasis mine)..."but only under very limited and specific circumstances"... cynical me reads it as a code word that says "such as ensnaring a sexual partner in a committed relationship (read: marriage with children) and then leaving them high and dry". Cynicism aside, nothing in that statement precludes a grey-A from fucking their way to a ring on their finger and then leaving their partner high and dry. Till Death or Divorce Do Them Apart. At least on AVEN some consider grey-A fully part of the asexual spectrum but others do not. As far as I'm concerned that's just a labeling game they like to play. But Grey-A is "sexually dysfunctional" as far as we label things and that's all that matters. I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. I believe that because she is absolutely not sexual in any way I could consider normal, but she never quite fit into fully asexual. But it's so close that I'm not really in a position to judge that (only she can). I've read a lot of stories on AVEN, written by self identifying asexuals, and how they ensnared their sexual partners but now they no long want to have sex. And they don't believe they need to because... - It's their body and no one can have sex with them unless they want to (fair enough of course) - There is no expectation of sex in a marriage (WTF? ? but this is a BFD point with asexuals) - There is no value in sex, no bonding. - Their sexual partner does not have a NEED, just a selfish desire. As opposed to their "legitimate need" to only have sex when or if they want. They give lip service to the idea of "compromise" but it must meet their needs not to have "coerced sex" or whatever. Which means the compromise is either total celibacy or nearly so. Anyone here recognize any of this in their partner? Wow - I readily admit I have a lot to learn - Grey Asexual very tricky - amorphous - Lesson of the day - black and white can be misleading. Yes of course it can it is obvious now. I think in most cases nothing can be more Individualistic and Subjective than someones Sexuality and all that evolves around Intimacy, frequency, etc. Fascinating and a bit scary too. |
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Post by shamwow on Jul 11, 2017 15:44:25 GMT -5
" I believe my STBX to be Grey-A but she vehemently denied it. " beachguy - I wonder why the denial? Do you know if this is a common thing for asexuals? When I have asked my H if he is asexual the question seemed to tick him off but he would never answer anything other than "I don't know". Well, I'm pretty sure *I* know... Do asexuals feel shame about this? Why should an asexual feel shame? I don't feel shame for having a high sex drive. I believe that this is how one is wired, and there is little that can be done to fundamentally change it (barring later medical issues and such). However, what they should be ashamed as fuck (pun intended about) is being asexual, and in a desire to get married and usually have a family, snare someone into a lifelong commitment they are unwilling to hold their end up on. For that, they should absolutely feel shame, but seldom do. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing when you think about it (more pun intended). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 15:45:17 GMT -5
What is AVEN?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 15:56:20 GMT -5
Why should an asexual feel shame? I don't feel shame for having a high sex drive. I believe that this is how one is wired, and there is little that can be done to fundamentally change it (barring later medical issues and such). However, what they should be ashamed as fuck (pun intended about) is being asexual, and in a desire to get married and usually have a family, snare someone into a lifelong commitment they are unwilling to hold their end up on. For that, they should absolutely feel shame, but seldom do. Cognitive dissonance is an amazing thing when you think about it (more pun intended). You are exactly right. A person may not know he/she is asexual until he/she is married. But I have come to the conclusion that when a person realizes that he/she is asexual, the only unselfish thing to do is to divorce. There is no reason to sentence a sexual person to a celibate life or a life with limited or bad sex. The asexual should just tell the other person that he/she is just not the right person & peacefully divorce. |
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? but this is a BFD point with asexuals)
