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Post by beachguy on Jun 17, 2017 13:18:30 GMT -5
beachguy she didn't intentionally mislead the doctor, she just didn't correct him.... Oh, yes she did. She is telling friends, family and doctors that "we are trying to have children", and you said that that was exactly what she said to her doc. She's gaslighting. If she were trying to have a child, she would be fucking you. And even if it was just her dentist, it was gaslighting. As mentioned previously, you are effectively colluding with her and enabling your sexless marriage. You *are* complicit in maintaining the status quo of your SM. You justify it by "not wanting to stir the pot". That is your *reason* for enabling her. I get it. I did that. For years. At some point I came to understand that although it was the expedient thing to do in the short term, it does nothing for the problem. Of course we all know the problem is not solvable (except when unicorns are fucking in your garden, a rare event). But still, even getting that, I personally regret all the enabling I did over the years, just to not rock the boat. I'm calling a spade a spade here, including the fact that if you quoted your wife correctly, she did intentionally gaslight the doctor. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I just want to make sure you're not still deep in The FOG. |
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Post by baza on Jun 17, 2017 19:05:28 GMT -5
By my observations in here over a loooong time, there are practically NO instances where the refusing spouse is sexually attracted to the refused spouse.
By the same observations, I reckon that the instances where the refusing spouse is sexually indifferent to the refused spouse are not all that common.
Far and away, the situations in here reflect situations where the refusing spouse is sexually averse to the refused spouse.
For the sake of arguement / discussion, I will posit that -
Instances where the refuser is still sexually attracted to you - 1%
Instances where the refuser is sexually indifferent to you - 10%
Instances where the refuser is sexually averse to you - 89%
Instances where you are a chance of having a robust sexual life with the refuser ?
That close to zero that it doesn't matter.
If you are skeptical about this - and you should be skeptical - try this - - -
Go back through the last 100 stories from newbies, and draw your own conclusions.
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Post by JMX on Jun 17, 2017 19:49:42 GMT -5
beachguy - it's so good to have you back  . I missed you! I love the theory you posit, and suspect it is right. In the end it doesn't matter, but reading through it does help the members here try and understand it is NOT them. Just like @lonelywife - I also believed if I just did x, y or z, something might change. It was soooo deeply troubling, that even though I knew it on an intellectual level, I had to go through many pivot points and "aha" moments to truly feel it was NOT MY FAULT in my heart too. I wish I had a timeline for you, or a checklist of the "milestones to wellness", but I don't. I suspect some residual issues for myself too, even though I feel like I am healed of the why-chasing burden. When you know it in your heart that it's NOT you, you will stop the self-abuse regarding the relationship and can work on the things you need to work on without a thought of him. I wish you a speedy turn-around.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 20:22:35 GMT -5
Could these be some other additional possibilities? All my studying about narcissism includes the narc who love bombs to snag their victim, then quickly slows things down to where the victim is left jumping through hoops, chasing the always moving goal post.
Personality disorders that lead to dealing with a high-conflict, abusive controller.
(BPD) Borderline Personality Disorder
(HPD) Histrionic Personality Disorder
(NPD) Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Sexlessness is included in all of these behaviors. Used as a weapon to gain control.
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Post by baza on Jun 17, 2017 20:24:42 GMT -5
*You*, *me*, *all of us* are complicit in our respective ILIASM shitholes.
It is true that for the most part, it was the refuser spouses choice to remove sex from the marital table and head the marriage off into ILIASM shithole territory.
*You*, *me*, *all of us* then had a choice of our own to make. - *are we going to cop this, or not ?* - *are we going to go along with the refusers choice, or are we going to make a choice of our own ?*
And, the overwhelming evidence is, that we chose to go along with the refuser spouses choice. We chose not to make our own choice, but rather, to go along with the refusers choice.
Sure, we may have chosen to go along with it unwillingly, resentfully, unhappily and pissed offidly, but go along with it we did.
In effect, we chose to remain in the situation.
And that, makes us fully complicit in the situation.
We chose it.
We are still choosing it.
The responsibility for the dysfunctional situation may well have been 'started' by the refuser spouse, but it is *you*, *me*, *us* who have chosen to continue it.
The choice was - and still is - YOURS.
You made the choice, you wear the consequences.
It was NOT your spouse who made this choice.
It was YOU.
And, if you want, you may re-visit that choice, take an objective re-assessment of it, and change it if you want.
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Post by misssunnybunny on Jun 17, 2017 20:39:14 GMT -5
Could these be some other additional possibilities? All my studying about narcissism includes the narc who love bombs to snag their victim, then quickly slows things down to where the victim is left jumping through hoops, chasing the always moving goal post. Personality disorders that lead to dealing with a high-conflict, abusive controller. (BPD) Borderline Personality Disorder (HPD) Histrionic Personality Disorder (NPD) Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sexlessness is included in all of these behaviors. Used as a weapon to gain control. Be careful throwing out mental health diagnoses as possibilities. An Axis II diagnosis like a personality disorder must be given much consideration over a period of time, it is not a diagnosis a clinician takes lightly. Can some of us be involved with people with personality disorders? I'm sure, as the prevalence of any type of Personality Disorder in the US is about 9%, according to the National Institute for Mental Health (to compare, anxiety and depression run about 20% each) So much comes into play with an SM that I would be hesitant to go toward a personality disorder too quickly. Good to have the information, but best to not jump to this as a reason too fast. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 20:46:33 GMT -5
*You*, *me*, *all of us* are complicit in our respective ILIASM shitholes. It is true that for the most part, it was the refuser spouses choice to remove sex from the marital table and head the marriage off into ILIASM shithole territory. *You*, *me*, *all of us* then had a choice of our own to make. - *are we going to cop this, or not ?* - *are we going to go along with the refusers choice, or are we going to make a choice of our own ?* And, the overwhelming evidence is, that we chose to go along with the refuser spouses choice. We chose not to make our own choice, but rather, to go along with the refusers choice. Sure, we may have chosen to go along with it unwillingly, resentfully, unhappily and pissed offidly, but go along with it we did. In effect, we chose to remain in the situation.And that, makes us fully complicit in the situation.
We chose it.
We are still choosing it.
The responsibility for the dysfunctional situation may well have been 'started' by the refuser spouse, but it is *you*, *me*, *us* who have chosen to continue it.
The choice was - and still is - YOURS.
You made the choice, you wear the consequences.
It was NOT your spouse who made this choice.
It was YOU.Here's an imediate thought about this great anology. Okay ,,,that is true. What is also true is you are in a marriage. You can't easily say, "NO! we will have sex and you will like it and give back with the same amount of passion." Now you are risking being accused of rape. However your spouse can force The removal of sex from the marital table and into the world of ILIASM shithole, and that is perfectly acceptable, by law, society, and religion. WE are comparing apples to oranges here. Which of the two is easier to detect and spot in a marriage? Which is easier to get out of, and which is easier to accept? All due to society values, upbringing, habits, values, physical and emotional reactions, etc...? There are people who are forced into sex slavery all their lives by the same one person, I guess? |
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Post by baza on Jun 17, 2017 20:52:22 GMT -5
Like Sister misssunnybunny I'd caution the advisability of lay-man diagnostics for mental and / or physical ailments. But I DO think that the average lay-person is capable of discerning whether their spouse is sexually attracted to them. If your missus enthusiastically responds to you, writhes luxuriantly with you as you touch her and tease her, and orgasms powerfully with you as your dick is imbedded firmly in her as you come like a freight train, and she yells out your name, then, there is a very high likelyhood that she finds you sexually attractive. If she lies there like a corpse, you can be pretty sure that - at best - she is sexually indifferent to you. If she won't engage at all, you can be pretty sure that she is sexually averse to you. This ain't rocket science. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 20:52:24 GMT -5
Could these be some other additional possibilities? All my studying about narcissism includes the narc who love bombs to snag their victim, then quickly slows things down to where the victim is left jumping through hoops, chasing the always moving goal post. Personality disorders that lead to dealing with a high-conflict, abusive controller. (BPD) Borderline Personality Disorder (HPD) Histrionic Personality Disorder (NPD) Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Sexlessness is included in all of these behaviors. Used as a weapon to gain control. Be careful throwing out mental health diagnoses as possibilities. An Axis II diagnosis like a personality disorder must be given much consideration over a period of time, it is not a diagnosis a clinician takes lightly. Can some of us be involved with people with personality disorders? I'm sure, as the prevalence of any type of Personality Disorder in the US is about 9%, according to the National Institute for Mental Health (to compare, anxiety and depression run about 20% each) So much comes into play with an SM that I would be hesitant to go toward a personality disorder too quickly. Good to have the information, but best to not jump to this as a reason too fast. True. There is also three other words involved in the internecine workings of the mental health field, specifically the APA (American Psychiatric Association) Politics, politics,politics! We can save that for a different post. |
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Post by baza on Jun 17, 2017 21:00:23 GMT -5
Quoting you here Brother greatcoastal - "Which is easier to get out of"  ? The answer is, none of them. There is no "easy" in the context of an ILIASM shithole. But the fact that your choices are not "easy" does NOT give you a pass on the obligation to make them. No-one gets a pass. No-one. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 21:06:28 GMT -5
Personality disorders tie in very strongly to the frequently used saying on here, " except for the sex, we have a great marriage, there a terrific mother or father great husband or wife". Then with a little probing the truth comes out. Doesn't it seem to tie in? Isn't that what comes into play with the SM, the personality disorder?
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Post by misssunnybunny on Jun 17, 2017 21:06:52 GMT -5
Politics aside, the mental health field does our very best to help those in need. I have run into red tape myself and it is very frustrating (seems any large organization has politics and red tape!). I have had to diagnose people, and it is an odd position to have, as what clinicians diagnose is basically a label. It can help the person (now I know why), or harm them (by feeling stigmatized). Personality disorders tend to involve a team approach, and all I have seen have been collaborative and ultimately made by a psychiatrist. Back to the point of this thread, seems baza a couple posts up has a good way of looking at it. The rest can boil down to why-chasing, and that can be unhealthy for *us* |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 21:10:26 GMT -5
Quoting you here Brother greatcoastal - "Which is easier to get out of" ? The answer is, none of them. There is no "easy" in the context of an ILIASM shithole. But the fact that your choices are not "easy" does NOT give you a pass on the obligation to make them. No-one gets a pass. No-one. Fair enough , no disagreements. Just pointing out that society makes it a hell of a lot easier to cry "rape", "sexual abuse" or "affair", even "child neglect" and instantly get out of a shithole. Than crying "SM" and getting out of it. |
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Post by misssunnybunny on Jun 17, 2017 21:13:37 GMT -5
Personality disorders tie in very strongly to the frequently used saying on here, " except for the sex, we have a great marriage, there a terrific mother or father great husband or wife". Then with a little probing the truth comes out. Doesn't it seem to tie in? Isn't that what comes into play with the SM, the personality disorder? Not necessarily. So many different factors are involved that a hasty decision that the refusing spouse must have a personality disorder is not advisable. Perhaps they saw their parent's marriage that way. Perhaps they were hurt in a past relationship and it was not resolved, so they push away future partners as an unconscious coping mechanism. Perhaps they have self esteem issues tied in or not with anxiety and/or depression, so they don't feel they deserve a healthy, happy relationship. Perhaps they have alcohol/drug issues and that affects their marriage. Personality disorder is a *very* loaded diagnosis, and not to be considered lightly. It is easy to read about it online and think, "hey, that's my spouse," but it is not that simple. FWIW, NPD is diagnosed in about 0.5-1% of the population, higher rates in men than women |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2017 21:25:54 GMT -5
Politics aside, the mental health field does our very best to help those in need. I have run into red tape myself and it is very frustrating (seems any large organization has politics and red tape!). I have had to diagnose people, and it is an odd position to have, as what clinicians diagnose is basically a label. It can help the person (now I know why), or harm them (by feeling stigmatized). Personality disorders tend to involve a team approach, and all I have seen have been collaborative and ultimately made by a psychiatrist. Back to the point of this thread, seems baza a couple posts up has a good way of looking at it. The rest can boil down to why-chasing, and that can be unhealthy for *us* Guess I am still a "why" chaser because I am about to enter the "dating world" and don't want to make the same mistake. So it's good to spot the red flags, or the "why" in a persons behavior, or the "why" do I like this person so much? And being able to step back and look at the "why" in my own codependent, giving , behavior. |
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. I missed you! 
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