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Post by tamara68 on May 4, 2016 3:55:17 GMT -5
In several other threads I have mentioned parts of my situation. I thought it would be better to make a separate thread now in a more logic place.
My husband and I have met in high school and were each others first lovers. He has had a lot of health problems, some of them quite serious. Psychologically there are big problems. He has OCD. This was very bad when he was about 20y. Gradually that got better. So much better that it didn't seem to be that much of a problem anymore. That is when I got pregnant. And immediately all his fears came back very strongly. To my opinion his OCD changed into an obsessive personality disorder.
Everything has to be done the way he wants it. He knows what is right and I don't. People with this kind of personality disorder are often called tirans.
When my daughter was born we were both exhausted. That is when sex disappeared. Compared to the rest of the problems, this is not the biggest problem, but at least it is easy to recognize.
At first the loss of sex didn't bother me because sex was something beyond the horizon as long as we struggled to get through the day. We argued a lot and I was often very mad ad him. So in his eyes I was a very bad wife. Gradually all intimity disappeared. At a certain moment he made clear he didn't want sex as long as I didn't behave better - meaning not getting mad at him. I have never tried initiating again since. Two years ago I started 'outsourcing'. Having sex again has changed me. It has made me realize how much I was enclosed in a small unhappy world and it was a trigger to learn to realize that I actually could leave my husband.
But the situation is complex. My daughter is the main reason to stay.
I know that staying is bad for her, but I also know that leaving will be bad. I am stuck.
I have thought about leaving a lot, but there are to many problems if I leave now. I can not simply leave and take my 15 year old daughter with me. She is used to being with her father a lot more than with me. She and her father will need to see each other after I leave. I am convinced that he will pressure her to live with him. I think the chance is big she will not dare to refuse that. She would be the thrown in the middle of a fight. I would not want to put pressure on her, I don't want her to choose sides, but he most likely will. I think that would be even worse than staying a bit longer. I don't know how much longer though. At least one more year until she finished high school I think. Hopefully she will start college education after that. Maybe that is when I could leave.
My husband is not physical abusive. When I do as he wants, it is almost livable at home. If I don't, the atmosphere is bad and my daughter withdraws from me. I have tried to stand up to him, but no success. I can not change anything of him. He is stubborn and completely convinced of him being right. He never gives in and he always throws back the ball to me. I am the bad one, the mean and bitchy one. It is right that I have shouted at him often. We have had bad fights and I have said mean things to him out of desperation, grieve and frustration. I have also tried being reasonable, doesn't work either. Whatever I do, he always has the final word.
He is depressed and stressed so he wants me to be kind to him. According to him, he is kind to me. He does part of the housekeeping, makes diner despite his physical problems so I have no reason to complain.
I can not simply do as I like and ignore his 'rules' because the consequences are worse than living like this.
It is really hard to explain. For instance, if I speak loudly, or even scream, or say 'bad' things at the dining table or anywhere else near food. He will throw the food away because I have contaminated it in his view. Hes thrown lots of food away and we can not afford that.
If I don't handle clothes or laundry as hygienic as he wants, he will want to wash everything, so than (almost) nothing is available to wear. He can not keep up with the laundry. I don't want that to get even worse. I can go on for hours in describing everything. These are just a few fragments.
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Post by wewbwb on May 4, 2016 5:24:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure when your daughter will start uni. Could you hang in that long?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 6:48:16 GMT -5
The reason he is abusive is of academic interest. He is a monster, and that is the only relevant fact. Even if he can't help it, that doesn't change the fact that you are suffering abuse. Of course, it is probably not the case that he can't help it. There is no reason he has to scream at and badger and say hurtful things to you. He feels a compulsive need to control everything and everyone, but it is his choice how to respond to that compulsion. He can get help and learn to control his anxiety, or he can shout and dominate the people around him to make him feel more in control. He has chosen the latter.
You are right you really have no choice but to leave, but I know it's not so easy as just pack your stuff and go. I've seen a divorce from an aggressive controller and it is not going to be pretty. Throw in a child and it's even rougher. I hope your daughter hasn't been manipulated to the point that she can't see reality. But dysfunction looks normal when you're in it. You didn't see how fooked up this is until you started a relationship with a normal man on the side. I can't see how leaving would be worse for her than staying. But I'm not in your shoes. I don't for example know the likelihood of him getting custody of her. Have you talked to a lawyer to find out how this might shake out?
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Post by wewbwb on May 4, 2016 6:52:07 GMT -5
Well I know that this is mostly about your daughter, as it should be. It seems that you are trying to stay for her. Is that the best thing though? What is seeing her mom hurting everyday doing to her? How does she deal with his OCD? How is your relationship with her away from him? Although she is and always be YOUR child is she still A child? Can you have an adult conversation with her without it going back to him?
Find out how she feels.
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Post by petrushka on May 4, 2016 7:32:12 GMT -5
Frankly, Tamara, I think you are skirting Battered Woman Syndrome. His continued controlling abusive behaviour has you on the ropes, that much is fairly obvious to me.
If you think you can hang on for another year .... well. It's your call. Is it going to do your daughter much good? I doubt it. More damage will be done to her emotional makeup, to her role models for relationships. Her relationship with you will not be any healthier, and you are NOT keeping her healthy never mind what you are telling yourself.
If she decides to stay with him after you leave, make it clear to her that your door will always be open. You may not have to wait long. Because, once you leave, he will take any other person on whom he lives with.
With an extreme abuser like him, and he IS extreme, he's at the far end of psychological and emotional abuse, there is NO point in hanging around. Never mind the money, never mind what you think he might do good for the kid (none, I tell you, NONE!!!), you need to consider saving yourself, your sanity, and limiting any further damage. Because never mind what you think, further damage is happening to you and to your daughter every day that you stay in this toxic situation. The cuts get deeper and deeper.
I've said it before: he desperately needs therapy. A shock like you and your daughter walking out on him might give him the impetus - or it may not. Tough. Realistically, you can NOT take responsibility for his pathological personality and behaviour. That, in itself, would be pathological on your part. It doesn't sound like you took him on to 'heal' him in the first instance though .... in fact, if you were a co-dependent or a submissive personality the setup might work better - but you are a person who has ideas and an agenda of her own, and does not want to live as a slave to his diseased whims - so get the fuck out of there.
As soon as you can (but that is your decision -- I am just giving you my read of the relationship, backed by a fair bit of experience of people like him).
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Post by tamara68 on May 4, 2016 7:35:26 GMT -5
The reason he is abusive is of academic interest. He is a monster, and that is the only relevant fact. Even if he can't help it, that doesn't change the fact that you are suffering abuse. Of course, it is probably not the case that he can't help it. There is no reason he has to scream at and badger and say hurtful things to you. He feels a compulsive need to control everything and everyone, but it is his choice how to respond to that compulsion. He can get help and learn to control his anxiety, or he can shout and dominate the people around him to make him feel more in control. He has chosen the latter. You are right you really have no choice but to leave, but I know it's not so easy as just pack your stuff and go. I've seen a divorce from an aggressive controller and it is not going to be pretty. Throw in a child and it's even rougher. I hope your daughter hasn't been manipulated to the point that she can't see reality. But dysfunction looks normal when you're in it. You didn't see how fooked up this is until you started a relationship with a normal man on the side. I can't see how leaving would be worse for her than staying. But I'm not in your shoes. I don't for example know the likelihood of him getting custody of her. Have you talked to a lawyer to find out how this might shake out? I will talk to a lawyer, have not done that yet. I work fulltime, my husband does not have a job. If I would get full custody, it would mean that my daughter would be alone for many hours because I am home late. There is a reasonable chance he would get custody. shared custody possible too, but not much chance that it would be going smoothly. I think my husband would put a lot of pressure on my daughter. She would feel torn between us. |
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Post by petrushka on May 4, 2016 7:43:38 GMT -5
I'd like to append this: my wife is the daughter of a man much like your husband, albeit without the OCD. The damage to her is so extensive that in her late 50s she still freaks out when I speak passionately on any subject. She shrinks. She sees him looking out of my eyes. attempting to cow her, to control her.
She is moderately hard of hearing, yet if/when I speak at an elevated volume so she can hear me better, she thinks I am shouting at her. Monday at 8, sitting down at the breakfast table, she asked me 'have you contacted the engineer yet?' - I retorted 'sweetie, I haven't even had breakfast yet, it's way too early' and I got "ok, ok, I will never nag you about this subject again" ... nag? I didn't feel nagged. I wasn't mad. I didn't even raise my voice - I smiled at her and said it politely. I was merely pointing out that it was way too early for me to have done anything about it.
That may be the future for your daughter. The longer she stays, the longer you stay.
My wife is a very confident person outside our relationship. But the love she has for me, the emotional connection throws her back into her 8 year old self, facing an ever hypercritical, controlling (and hitting) father.
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Post by tamara68 on May 4, 2016 7:45:48 GMT -5
Frankly, Tamara, I think you are skirting Battered Woman Syndrome. His continued controlling abusive behaviour has you on the ropes, that much is fairly obvious to me. If you think you can hang on for another year .... well. It's your call. Is it going to do your daughter much good? I doubt it. More damage will be done to her emotional makeup, to her role models for relationships. Her relationship with you will not be any healthier, and you are NOT keeping her healthy never mind what you are telling yourself. If she decides to stay with him after you leave, make it clear to her that your door will always be open. You may not have to wait long. Because, once you leave, he will take any other person on whom he lives with. With an extreme abuser like him, and he IS extreme, he's at the far end of psychological and emotional abuse, there is NO point in hanging around. Never mind the money, never mind what you think he might do good for the kid (none, I tell you, NONE!!!), you need to consider saving yourself, your sanity, and limiting any further damage. Because never mind what you think, further damage is happening to you and to your daughter every day that you stay in this toxic situation. The cuts get deeper and deeper. I've said it before: he desperately needs therapy. A shock like you and your daughter walking out on him might give him the impetus - or it may not. Tough. Realistically, you can NOT take responsibility for his pathological personality and behaviour. That, in itself, would be pathological on your part. It doesn't sound like you took him on to 'heal' him in the first instance though .... in fact, if you were a co-dependent or a submissive personality the setup might work better - but you are a person who has ideas and an agenda of her own, and does not want to live as a slave to his diseased whims - so get the fuck out of there. As soon as you can (but that is your decision -- I am just giving you my read of the relationship, backed by a fair bit of experience of people like him). I think you are right... I have thought this too. I know staying is not good, but what I expect to happen when I leave won't be good either. So I am trying to prepare for leaving at a time that seems doable. |
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Post by tamara68 on May 4, 2016 7:48:01 GMT -5
I'd like to append this: my wife is the daughter of a man much like your husband, albeit without the OCD. The damage to her is so extensive that in her late 50s she still freaks out when I speak passionately on any subject. She shrinks. She sees him looking out of my eyes. attempting to cow her, to control her. She is moderately hard of hearing, yet if/when I speak at an elevated volume so she can hear me better, she thinks I am shouting at her. Monday at 8, sitting down at the breakfast table, she asked me 'have you contacted the engineer yet?' - I retorted 'sweetie, I haven't even had breakfast yet, it's way too early' and I got "ok, ok, I will never nag you about this subject again" ... nag? I didn't feel nagged. I wasn't mad. I didn't even raise my voice - I smiled at her and said it politely. I was merely pointing out that it was way too early for me to have done anything about it. That may be the future for your daughter. The longer she stays, the longer you stay. My wife is a very confident person outside our relationship. But the love she has for me, the emotional connection throws her back into her 8 year old self, facing an ever hypercritical, controlling (and hitting) father. I had an agressive father, I recognize that. And for what my daughter is concerned, I should have left ages ago but I didn't. I can not undo that. I fear the damage is done. |
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Post by wewbwb on May 4, 2016 7:49:26 GMT -5
If it is just you that is one thing. Since there is a child involved it becomes very different. Do not rush. Seek counsel. Talk to other women in your area about what the options are and what to expect. Do the research. At all costs protect the daughter.
But save yourself.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 8:08:43 GMT -5
I agree with what everyone is saying - your husband is abusive and you need to leave. But as a mother, my heart hears your fears for your daughter loud and clear - the idea that he could turn her against you, then do even more damage to her without you there to intervene - it makes my stomach hurt. It's probably true that you aren't really doing her any long term good by staying, but I think you really do need to see a lawyer and see if there is any way you can get full custody. It's not going to hurt your daughter to spend a few hours alone after school, but living with her toxic father will definitely damage her. My heart hurts for you - this is not a simple situation and I sincerely hope you can find a way out for yourself and your daughter.
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Post by unmatched on May 4, 2016 8:28:07 GMT -5
There has been lots of good advice here. It seems that your decision mostly rests on what is best for your daughter. She is not going any more. What does she think about how he is? How is he with her? Are you able to talk to her about it?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 9:21:56 GMT -5
Tamara, I am so sorry. I have no idea how to advise you. I waited until my youngest daughter was out of the house and in college, and it was/is very very hard. I definitely lost part of myself. However, your daughter is 15, and I assume she will be an adult at 18, and able to make her own choices. So you could possibly wait 3 more years, and then custody would not be an issue.
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. I am sorry.
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Post by LITW on May 4, 2016 10:37:55 GMT -5
I am so sorry you are having to deal with this.
Whichever way it goes, what is critically important for your daughter is that she realizes that the way your husband is treating you is NOT normal, and NOT ok.
YOUR peace of mind is even more critically important. Whenever you fly on an airplane, the safety briefing tells you to put on your own oxygen mask before helping others... and you need emotional oxygen.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 12:06:31 GMT -5
The reason he is abusive is of academic interest. He is a monster, and that is the only relevant fact. Even if he can't help it, that doesn't change the fact that you are suffering abuse. Of course, it is probably not the case that he can't help it. There is no reason he has to scream at and badger and say hurtful things to you. He feels a compulsive need to control everything and everyone, but it is his choice how to respond to that compulsion. He can get help and learn to control his anxiety, or he can shout and dominate the people around him to make him feel more in control. He has chosen the latter. You are right you really have no choice but to leave, but I know it's not so easy as just pack your stuff and go. I've seen a divorce from an aggressive controller and it is not going to be pretty. Throw in a child and it's even rougher. I hope your daughter hasn't been manipulated to the point that she can't see reality. But dysfunction looks normal when you're in it. You didn't see how fooked up this is until you started a relationship with a normal man on the side. I can't see how leaving would be worse for her than staying. But I'm not in your shoes. I don't for example know the likelihood of him getting custody of her. Have you talked to a lawyer to find out how this might shake out? I will talk to a lawyer, have not done that yet. I work fulltime, my husband does not have a job. If I would get full custody, it would mean that my daughter would be alone for many hours because I am home late. There is a reasonable chance he would get custody. shared custody possible too, but not much chance that it would be going smoothly. I think my husband would put a lot of pressure on my daughter. She would feel torn between us. Don't listen to me, listen to a lawyer, but it would seem that if he doesn't have a job and you have some evidence of his behavior it would be unlikely he'd get custody. It would be more likely he'd get alimony. But even that is a maybe if you can show you had to flee to escape abuse. But only a lawyer can tell you any of this with some certainty. I can give you some legal advice though: the law has nothing to do with what is fair. Don't expect justice. Expect to get what you get from the fights you win. |
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