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Post by tamara68 on May 7, 2016 3:47:33 GMT -5
Knowing a bit more, and also about the health issues, the Obsessive Compulsive behavior is explained. Unfortunately it has gone out of control, as a result you and your daughter suffer. Your situation is indeed very complicated more than can be easily understood by someone else. I have minimal advice, as you have already received plenty, and your mind is working on it also. The rules you have to follow, I think you realize you may have to for a while. But as for the frequent arguments: I am not in your situation, and you could never accurately describe it to me, nor the consequences you mention. But someone who wants to be in control, actually wants to pursue an argument, has a few weaknesses that can be used against them. This is not to say you can win an argument, or eliminate them, but you can put yourself less in defense. You have realized that whatever you say will be interpreted as incorrect or unacceptable. Your views will be reversed and changed, returned back to you quite different than what you said or your implications. He will always have the last word. Two items to consider. One, silence is your strength. The less you say, the less can be twisted. If you are asked a question, give simple one sentence answers, which provide the facts concerning the question only. Do not elaborate on your answers, you are opening an opportunity for him. Offer facts, not opinions nor emotions. This is surprisingly very effective. Silence is your last word. Two, by all means absolutely keep your cool. The moment you raise your voice, he has the upper hand, this is what he wants. When you become angry, you are the mean terrible wife you have been made out to be. When you defend yourself with harsh words, you are admitting your accusations. If you stand firm and calm, the floor beneath you will be solid. As the saying goes, when you are throwing dirt you are losing ground. If you are told something that hurts, you must allow it to bounce off you, you are above this kind of treatment. This too is an amazing effective method. I've said before, you are a human being who deserves some rights. I hope my suggestions are not overly brazen. I have no tolerance for bullying behavior. Again, I don't know your entire situation, nor the consequences, but these are things to consider next time you are confronted. Please keep up with your posts and any progress. "The less you say, the less can be twisted". That is true. And also what I try to do. "keep your cool". Good advice, I manage to do so part of the time. not always I must admit. The frustration is too much sometimes. Letting hurtful things bounce off is so hard! I try to, but get mad sometimes anyway. But you are right that I confirm his acccusations if I get angry. However if I just do everything without objections and without comments, I get the feeling that I am a stupid brainless dumb person, no wonder that I am in this shitty marriage. So, now I try to only be a bit rebellious on very small things. That are not enough to provoke really bad fights. Just to show that despite everything I still have a (bit of) mind of my own. It helps knowing that I am not allone, and that the ILIASM group is here. Thank you! |
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Post by sand5280 on May 7, 2016 4:04:32 GMT -5
If I just do everything without objections and without comments, I get the feeling that I am a stupid brainless dumb person, no wonder that I am in this shitty marriage. So, now I try to only be a bit rebellious on very small things. That are not enough to provoke really bad fights. Just to show that despite everything I still have a (bit of) mind of my own. I was once in a relationship with a woman with some serious depression problems, which surfaced as angry dirty fighting with me. What I described was how I managed it, and did quite well. She stopped coming after me, when she realized it was going nowhere to her advantage. As I said, very effective. It's not easy to hold your position quietly when you are being hurt with words. You will not be a stupid brainless person, but rather from the other's point of view, you will become a barrier which cannot be penetrated. And It's difficult to remain calm when inside you are furious. But it works if you have the confidence and patience to do so. As for being rebellious on the small things, I like this idea. This will eliminate the image of your being a mouse, while avoiding anything serious. I believe you are thinking like I am: You don't want to win an argument, you want to avoid them, or not be overcome by them. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 8:19:51 GMT -5
If I just do everything without objections and without comments, I get the feeling that I am a stupid brainless dumb person, no wonder that I am in this shitty marriage. So, now I try to only be a bit rebellious on very small things. That are not enough to provoke really bad fights. Just to show that despite everything I still have a (bit of) mind of my own. I was once in a relationship with a woman with some serious depression problems, which surfaced as angry dirty fighting with me. What I described was how I managed it, and did quite well. She stopped coming after me, when she realized it was going nowhere to her advantage. As I said, very effective. It's not easy to hold your position quietly when you are being hurt with words. You will not be a stupid brainless person, but rather from the other's point of view, you will become a barrier which cannot be penetrated. And It's difficult to remain calm when inside you are furious. But it works if you have the confidence and patience to do so. As for being rebellious on the small things, I like this idea. This will eliminate the image of your being a mouse, while avoiding anything serious. I believe you are thinking like I am: You don't want to win an argument, you want to avoid them, or not be overcome by them. That's right, with some people you can't win an argument because the content of the argument is irrelevant to them. Their goal is to suck you into a fight. In going so, they have won, no matter how superior your argumentation. |
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Post by petrushka on May 7, 2016 8:50:37 GMT -5
Joking answer, but quite serious: I took control of my wife's passive aggressive games by not playing any more.
Just. Don't. Play.
If she won't tell me if she wants to go Italian or Thai, I just go straight to the first place that I fancy.
If she won't tell what she wants me to cook for dinner, I will cook what I feel like. I will not chase her
around the house begging her to tell me what to cook.
If she takes exception to something I say and makes off in a pretend huff, I just carry on and try not to let
it upset me (hard!) but just keep on doing what I am doing.
Doing this has practically eliminated the P-A behaviour. It doesn't get its rewards any more. The reward being,
obviously, to get me upset and running around in the hamsterwheel trying to placate her, and she'd have control
by not getting placated. Presumably she learned this from her father ...
I think a similar tactic is about the one thing that may work with a controlfreak like Mr.T.: stonewall when he
gets abusive or tries to pick a fight. Don't talk back, leave the room without a word even. I know that's worked
for one or two people to whom I suggested to try this. It's not cool, it's not elegant, you won't win any fights
that way, but it's not about winning anyway (except for him).
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 20:48:29 GMT -5
To boil it all down into one statement: The less you say, the less trouble you can get into.
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Post by bballgirl on May 7, 2016 20:55:47 GMT -5
I was once in a relationship with a woman with some serious depression problems, which surfaced as angry dirty fighting with me. What I described was how I managed it, and did quite well. She stopped coming after me, when she realized it was going nowhere to her advantage. As I said, very effective. It's not easy to hold your position quietly when you are being hurt with words. You will not be a stupid brainless person, but rather from the other's point of view, you will become a barrier which cannot be penetrated. And It's difficult to remain calm when inside you are furious. But it works if you have the confidence and patience to do so. As for being rebellious on the small things, I like this idea. This will eliminate the image of your being a mouse, while avoiding anything serious. I believe you are thinking like I am: You don't want to win an argument, you want to avoid them, or not be overcome by them. That's right, with some people you can't win an argument because the content of the argument is irrelevant to them. Their goal is to suck you into a fight. In going so, they have won, no matter how superior your argumentation. So true!! One time the ex and I had a fight over fish sticks! I gave my son fish sticks before a baseball game. Ex claimed that it's not good for him to eat that before a game. I got sucked right in. My response was "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" Which escalated it to a whole different level with my ex. In hindsight I should have just said "Why?" Because seriously I'd love to hear the explanation. |
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Post by obobfla on May 8, 2016 0:55:41 GMT -5
Tamara, I have been reading your story and relating to much of it. I put with a lot with my wife because of her mental illness, and I stay in my marriage because of my son and lack of money. But right now, I see how her illness affects him. He is 13, yet she treats him as if he were 6.
But the main reason I stay is that she would not make it on her own. I cannot afford to pay for two apartments. Outside of my job, the only income is her disability payments, which are not a lot. Although our marriage sucks, I care enough for her not to abandon her. Breaking from her is going to require undoing a knot with lots of counseling for both of us.
Bravo on your outsourcing! I found that I needed to and never felt guilty about it. Having affairs restored my manhood, and I have been lucky enough to find women who were friends as well as lovers.
I found myself getting into a vicious cycle of resentment and guilt with my wife, Resentful when she either acts out or forgets to consider my or my son's feelings. Guilty that I get angry with her. She is sick, and that is not her fault. But if you have a cold, that is not your fault. However, it is your responsibility to wipe your nose and not sneeze and cough on other people. Therefore, I have learned not to tolerate her thoughtlessness.
What troubles me is how your daughter clings to him. Most adolescent girls I know feel their parents are OCD, whether they are or not, It is not healthy for her to see her father abuse her mother. She is going to assume that is normal and find someone like him in a partner. I often worry that my son with think that what he and his mother have is a "normal" marriage. I wish I could have a healthy relationship to show him how it's done.
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Post by tamara68 on May 8, 2016 2:28:47 GMT -5
Joking answer, but quite serious: I took control of my wife's passive aggressive games by not playing any more. Just. Don't. Play. .. I think a similar tactic is about the one thing that may work with a controlfreak like Mr.T.: stonewall when he gets abusive or tries to pick a fight. Don't talk back, leave the room without a word even. I know that's worked for one or two people to whom I suggested to try this. It's not cool, it's not elegant, you won't win any fights that way, but it's not about winning anyway (except for him). 'Don't play', is what I try to do. And not talking back and leave the room is what I often do. (such a shame we live in a small house..., I have went outside often). But when I do that he comments a lot on me walking out. It is an other proof to him that I am the one who doesn't communicate... So again a proof that I am the one who does everything wrong and I am the one to blame. |
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Post by tamara68 on May 8, 2016 2:29:57 GMT -5
So true!! One time the ex and I had a fight over fish sticks! I gave my son fish sticks before a baseball game. Ex claimed that it's not good for him to eat that before a game. I got sucked right in. My response was "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" Which escalated it to a whole different level with my ex. In hindsight I should have just said "Why?" Because seriously I'd love to hear the explanation. So familiar those kind of escalations... |
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Post by tamara68 on May 8, 2016 2:41:52 GMT -5
Tamara, I have been reading your story and relating to much of it. I put with a lot with my wife because of her mental illness, and I stay in my marriage because of my son and lack of money. But right now, I see how her illness affects him. He is 13, yet she treats him as if he were 6. But the main reason I stay is that she would not make it on her own. I cannot afford to pay for two apartments. Outside of my job, the only income is her disability payments, which are not a lot. Although our marriage sucks, I care enough for her not to abandon her. Breaking from her is going to require undoing a knot with lots of counseling for both of us. Bravo on your outsourcing! I found that I needed to and never felt guilty about it. Having affairs restored my manhood, and I have been lucky enough to find women who were friends as well as lovers. I found myself getting into a vicious cycle of resentment and guilt with my wife, Resentful when she either acts out or forgets to consider my or my son's feelings. Guilty that I get angry with her. She is sick, and that is not her fault. But if you have a cold, that is not your fault. However, it is your responsibility to wipe your nose and not sneeze and cough on other people. Therefore, I have learned not to tolerate her thoughtlessness. What troubles me is how your daughter clings to him. Most adolescent girls I know feel their parents are OCD, whether they are or not, It is not healthy for her to see her father abuse her mother. She is going to assume that is normal and find someone like him in a partner. I often worry that my son with think that what he and his mother have is a "normal" marriage. I wish I could have a healthy relationship to show him how it's done. I can recognize all you say. My husband also treats my daughter as if she is half her age. I worry about my husband not making it on his own, but maybe it is not as bad as I think. I also can not afford two appartments, but If I would leave, he would get a minimum of money to live from. Very hard to do but not impossible. Very unlikely my husband would do counseling. And also not much chance to find a counselor who would be good for him. Your vicious cycle is also very familiar to me. About having a cold by the way.... If I have a cold, and my husbands gets it too it definitely is something he blames me for. I am also afraid about the effect of my husband and our marriage on my daughter. She knows about the OCD, sometimes I try to talk with her about it. She knows we are not happy and that I feel caged. And I wish also I'd have a normal relationship. And my daughter would see how a couple can be affectionate. She can't remember having seen us kiss or cuddle. That makes me feel so sad. |
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Post by sand5280 on May 8, 2016 8:55:31 GMT -5
The main reason I stay is that she would not make it on her own. I cannot afford to pay for two apartments. Outside of my job, the only income is her disability payments, which are not a lot. Although our marriage sucks, I care enough for her not to abandon her. I found myself getting into a vicious cycle of resentment and guilt with my wife, Resentful when she either acts out or forgets to consider my or my son's feelings. Guilty that I get angry with her. She is sick, and that is not her fault. But if you have a cold, that is not your fault. However, it is your responsibility to wipe your nose and not sneeze and cough on other people. Therefore, I have learned not to tolerate her thoughtlessness. Behind this is a message of someone who genuinely cares about someone else, almost more than themselves. You fear leaving because of her well being afterward. And you know that in some ways she cannot control some things. |
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Post by lovespirit on May 10, 2016 6:05:45 GMT -5
I am also afraid about the effect of my husband and our marriage on my daughter. And I wish also I'd have a normal relationship. And my daughter would see how a couple can be affectionate. She can't remember having seen us kiss or cuddle. That makes me feel so sad. I feel EXACTLY the same way. I wish my kids had seen us affectionate at some point, but it's never happened. I don't know what damage has been done, or what their reaction will be if and when I'm eventually in a new relationship. |
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Post by wewbwb on May 10, 2016 8:17:11 GMT -5
I am also afraid about the effect of my husband and our marriage on my daughter. And I wish also I'd have a normal relationship. And my daughter would see how a couple can be affectionate. She can't remember having seen us kiss or cuddle. That makes me feel so sad. I feel EXACTLY the same way. I wish my kids had seen us affectionate at some point, but it's never happened. I don't know what damage has been done, or what their reaction will be if and when I'm eventually in a new relationship. It is something that can slowly introduced to them as they are older. That physical love, affection and passion are not bad things - and being with and sharing a life with one person who can fulfill your needs is a worthy goal - bring home the point that they MUST also be willing to fulfill the needs of their own partners. |
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Post by itsjustus on May 16, 2016 2:27:58 GMT -5
That's right, with some people you can't win an argument because the content of the argument is irrelevant to them. Their goal is to suck you into a fight. In going so, they have won, no matter how superior your argumentation. So true!! One time the ex and I had a fight over fish sticks! I gave my son fish sticks before a baseball game. Ex claimed that it's not good for him to eat that before a game. I got sucked right in. My response was "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" Which escalated it to a whole different level with my ex. In hindsight I should have just said "Why?" Because seriously I'd love to hear the explanation. Omg....now I've got to know...why??? Seriously! Why?? Did you ever find out!?!? And yes....that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! (sorry..trying not to thread Jack, but be honest...you all want to know too....) |
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Post by petrushka on May 16, 2016 2:43:26 GMT -5
So true!! One time the ex and I had a fight over fish sticks! I gave my son fish sticks before a baseball game. Ex claimed that it's not good for him to eat that before a game. I got sucked right in. My response was "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" Which escalated it to a whole different level with my ex. In hindsight I should have just said "Why?" Because seriously I'd love to hear the explanation. Omg....now I've got to know...why??? Seriously! Why?? Did you ever find out!?!? And yes....that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! (sorry..trying not to thread Jack, but be honest...you all want to know too....) Nah, why would you want to know. I am pretty sure the only 'why' there was to make a power-play. Hey, we're talking about a refuser here. We are talking about a jerk of a refuser here. Refusers are damaged people, what motivates them .. [John Cleese voice] "reason don't enter into it, mate!" (rehashed like from the dead parrot skit). To wit: if my wife has an accident, or a surprise, if she drops a plate or hurts her hand on a nail ... I know to ignore the first 3-4 sentences that come out of her mouth. They don't make sense. They are verbally flailing about, making wild accusations or nonsensical statements, until she gathers her wits. Knee jerk reactions. Passive aggressive defensive mode revival. As well, I've stopped worrying about it: does she still think that when she acts reasonably, or not? I don't play that game any more, and she knows it. Some control freaks just *have to* stick their oar in, whether it's appropriate or not, absurd or not. I'd let it ride under that label, this was an idiot being an idiot. They don't need valid reasons for that. |
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