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Post by lyn on May 23, 2017 19:05:54 GMT -5
I'd also like to point out that I'm not saying that I am "right". All I'm saying is that there is "gray" in the world and we as people, as fallible humans, need to understand that. A lie to cover a misdeeds or to appear to be different from what you are can (probably should ) be a deal breaker, while "I won't mind if your mother stays with us a week" shouldn't be. In my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong. Hey I get what you're saying. I worked in Politics for many years and part of my job actually required bending the truth on many occasions in order to be successful. Part of why I got out of it. I do understand that these "grey" areas are necessary in society for coexistence. But in this possibly hypothetical scenario - when newly dating or even before going on a date, it seems like it would be smart to think twice about continuing to see someone that you find does tend to lie easily. Just seems like a good policy to me. And, yes, I am currently lying to my H as I prepare to leave in the near future without letting him in on this tidbit of info. Lying by omission. I really dont enjoy it, but, seems a necessary evil. Honestly it's a pretty damn big lie - def not a white lie. Am I a hypocrite? Good question. Probably. But when I am "out" and do start to date (whenever that may be - no big hurry), I won't lie to these new dates / friends I may or may not have sex with. At least I'll try my best not to. (my own disclaimer😉) |
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Post by snowman12345 on May 23, 2017 19:10:21 GMT -5
I don't lie at work, people's lives and health may depend on my honesty. However, I might not disclose everything unless specifically asked. I may do this because I don't have complete information on the situation. Might you "downplay" certain risks because you think one solution is better than another? Is that not the same thing? Again all I'm saying is that the idea of 100% total honestly is not the same thing as "right speech " Furthermore, if someone says "I always tell the truth " they are lying and to me that's a far bigger "red flag" then someone who practices "right speech " Oh I agree 100%. I said I don't lie to my patients - I said nothing about always telling the truth. My patients are making life altering decisions based on the information I and other health professionals give them. It may not be what they want to hear, but it is the truth as I know it. I let the docs deal with statistics to push one treatment or another - I deal in quality of life vs life at all costs. Now in my personal life - I generally don't say anything, but if I have to, I will lie in order to make life easier for someone or sometimes myself. Usually I say "It was the dog".
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Post by unmatched on May 23, 2017 19:17:06 GMT -5
Yeah - I'm thinking it's on the deal-breaker list. Why invest personally in someone if they disrespect you by lying - even dumb lies - from the start? Is 100% honesty too much to ask for? I don't think so. White lies aren't really necessary imho. One can be honest without being an a-hole. Just takes some tact I guess. White lies in relationships have a way of building up. You might start out by saying "I'm not hungry" to somebody you don't know very well instead of "I don't like the food you are offering me". Then when you get to know them a little bit better you might say "I would love to see you" even though you don't feel like it. Then you start dating and you are saying "No you don't look like a tangerine in that dress" if you know they don't have an opportunity to change it. Then you start saying "I don't mind that I didn't come" because you figure it is just a one off. And then you are avoiding the subject of sex because you know it makes them uncomfortable. And then 10 years have gone by and you are in a deeply passive aggressive sexless marriage and you can't talk to each other anymore because there is this huge abyss of half-truths and unspoken feelings in the space between you. Somewhere in there is probably a big grey area. And I am sure I may have gotten a bit idealistic recently  But in my next relationship I would like to try and keep any of that greyness to an absolute minimum. If I can't say something that someone doesn't like without it having a negative impact on the relationship, then I think I would be better off not in it. |
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Post by lyn on May 23, 2017 19:20:21 GMT -5
I reckon Sister lyn , that if you bar everyone who lies to you from your dating list, then you will never have another date in your life. And that would probably not be a life enhancing position to take. If you are going to engage in life generally, then you are going to be dealing with liars, starting in the morning when the barista insincerely wishes you a good day when you purchase your latte. If you are going to engage with a person specifically, you are a certainty to be told a few porkies here and there. Would it be a productive use of your time and resources to try and verify everything someone says to you for its' veracity ? I'd imagine that would bog you down somewhat, much like "why chasing". Here's a scenario for you. Ms enna and I had agreed to meet back in about July 2009. It was all organised. And I baled out of it on 2 days notice. I claimed ill health. Ms enna believed I had gotten cold feet (or at least strongly suspected it) The facts were that I was indeed quite sick, but it would not have been unreasonable for Ms enna to think "this bloke is just jerking me about". So when I suggested we meet a week later than we had previously agreed, she would have been quite entitled to tell me to fuck off. She - a little cautiously - agreed to the re-schedule. And we met. And the rest is history. It could oh so easily have crashed and burned when I baled out of the original agreement. Lots of good points baza. The thing is, I'm not a suspicious or naive person. I know people will lie to me - most of the time I won't even know it or if I do, won't really care. It's all about context. Part of what will follow me from this lovely sm is an inability to deal with a liar. Maybe my skin will thicken enough over time where little white lies won't bother me. I sure hope so if the alternative is flying solo for the rest of my life. Probably shouldn't even entertain these thoughts for a while anyway, yet, I do. |
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Post by wewbwb on May 23, 2017 21:02:12 GMT -5
Everyone here makes good points .
I can see why one can insist on honesty.
Maybe the issue is that I'm not sure if I am honest with myself .
"It will get better"
"We can work through this "
"I don't need to write that down, I'll remember it"
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Post by greatcoastal on May 23, 2017 22:24:45 GMT -5
I reckon Sister lyn , that if you bar everyone who lies to you from your dating list, then you will never have another date in your life. And that would probably not be a life enhancing position to take. If you are going to engage in life generally, then you are going to be dealing with liars, starting in the morning when the barista insincerely wishes you a good day when you purchase your latte. If you are going to engage with a person specifically, you are a certainty to be told a few porkies here and there. Would it be a productive use of your time and resources to try and verify everything someone says to you for its' veracity ? I'd imagine that would bog you down somewhat, much like "why chasing". Here's a scenario for you. Ms enna and I had agreed to meet back in about July 2009. It was all organised. And I baled out of it on 2 days notice. I claimed ill health. Ms enna believed I had gotten cold feet (or at least strongly suspected it) The facts were that I was indeed quite sick, but it would not have been unreasonable for Ms enna to think "this bloke is just jerking me about". So when I suggested we meet a week later than we had previously agreed, she would have been quite entitled to tell me to fuck off. She - a little cautiously - agreed to the re-schedule. And we met. And the rest is history. It could oh so easily have crashed and burned when I baled out of the original agreement. Lots of good points baza . The thing is, I'm not a suspicious or naive person. I know people will lie to me - most of the time I won't even know it or if I do, won't really care. It's all about context. Part of what will follow me from this lovely sm is an inability to deal with a liar. Maybe my skin will thicken enough over time where little white lies won't bother me. I sure hope so if the alternative is flying solo for the rest of my life. Probably shouldn't even entertain these thoughts for a while anyway, yet, I do. I just came home from dinner with 5 ladies from my divorce recovery class. We were all very honest with each other , as we openly discussed our problems. There's not going to be any dating going on, and we all want, and need to help each other. We are going to continue to meet, and continue to share things.Not everything is going to come out at once. For one thing,, that would be too much to handle! However as the trust quickly develops, the walls come down. I think it's fair to say ,, that many of us on this sight, have had to build some P R E T T Y strong walls! We are talking about meeting another partner, dating? Dropping the walls ,being honest, vulnerable? Isn't that what I want when I go on a date, or meet a potential partner? I want to be my self as much as possible. The best way I know how to do that is to be with someone who is going to accept me, with all my flaws. That means being honest. That means being vulnerable, and taking risks, chances. Half truths? Ehh, .....those happen, that's part of life, to a degree. It's the big picture and giving it time. I hope to set the foundation, establish the boundaries, leading the way by being my self, open and honest, having no fear of any repercussion. And, and, I PRAY, that I will have learned how to spot the red flags of being lied too, and have the self confidence, and strength to walk away from it. I want that for all of us! |
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Post by nolongerlonely on May 24, 2017 1:26:52 GMT -5
There are some great points here, as I said in another thread, I even suffer some guilt by being here and sharing how I feel and what has happened in my marriage. So yes, grey areas are an issue in the black and white scenario. But strangely, (as I too am probably a hypocrite), the thing that strikes me most having been here for a while now, is that fundamentally when I speak to someone who is in the same situation as me - here I mean - there is a common code in some way. Kind of a code amongst thieves - not stealing from each other. The fact that we have been so honest about why we are here and what is missing in our lives, then what would be the point of the lie ? It makes no sense. I feel happy inside to be able to tell people here, exactly how it is, and not dress it up like at some awful dinner party where everyone talks about how wonderful their spouses are, and their lives in general (always makes me want to stick my fingers down my throat, this facade that is required). So no, in this case, first dates I mean, as far as I am concerned a lie is a major issue.
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Post by WindSister on May 24, 2017 9:44:09 GMT -5
Lots of gray. Can't even wrap my head around what I want to say about it all but will try.
I fall back to that word we use a lot here and say I really think authenticity is the real matter at stake (well when it comes to our own lying anyway).
When we TRULY figure out who we are, who we want to be AS A PERSON, then we have a compass for how to behave in the world. sometimes that may include white lies, I suppose. Yes, I can see I don't disclose everything to everyone, not even my husband, but it's on the foundation of my ultimate goals for life, for who I am as a person and for creating a loving/lasting relationship.
That's great to figure yourself out, but I know that doesn't answer the question about what to put up with when it comes to someone else.
I guess that goes back to the core of a person's character. Who are they? What are they showing you? Consistently?
Genuine, real people are a turn-on.
Can the person own up to mistakes? Show genuine remorse AND actually improve on rectifying the situation AND actually work on NOT doing it again??
I don't know -- tough subject. I would prefer not to have my feelings spared and get pure honesty, but I know sometimes I do spare feelings by not sharing all my thoughts. It's definitely a fine, fine line.
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Post by WindSister on May 24, 2017 9:57:30 GMT -5
www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-houghton/relationship-advice_b_5340714.htmlThis article differentiates kinds of lies and also talks about consistency and/or following your intuition. "Relationships are made up of many components. People are willing to put up with various quirks in their partners simply to keep the relationship going. But if you are consistently made to feel uncomfortable or uneasy because you feel as if you cannot trust your partner, then making the decision not to take him or her back is the logical one for you. Life needs quality and a certain sense of security. Being with a person you can’t trust can only cause stress and emotional upheaval. You deserve a better way of living." That sums it up for me.
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Post by WindSister on May 24, 2017 10:13:46 GMT -5
Another article. This topic fascinates me. psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2015/04/18/are-white-lies-ok-in-romantic-relationships/"In other words, white lies are about “overlooking certain things in the name of love and understanding.” They’re about offering reassurance. Orenstein referred to it as a collusion we make with our partner to prop each other up.
“It’s an implicit mutual agreement couples can create to say ‘we’re special,’ ‘we’re the in crowd,’ ‘and I’m incredibly lucky.’ We can cherish each other and honor each other by acting as if our partner is the most beautiful, smart, loving person in the whole world; that we would choose him or her over anyone else; that we made the right decision and we’re not looking anymore.”
White lies are not OK when something actually bothers you, and you want your partner to change it (and they can), Orenstein said."
"A serious deception, Orenstein said, is about protecting yourself, not your partner. This includes everything from cheating to having a gambling problem to telling your partner nothing is bothering you when you’re actually feeling resentful, she said.
Keeping secrets and withholding your feelings from your partner often sabotage your relationship. The best course of action is, again, to talk about it. “If you can verbalize your struggles or your frustrations, you’re doing your partner a great favor because you two can directly address the issue together instead of avoiding the issue.” Avoidance slowly chips away at relationships.
As a whole, white lies are OK. They’re even beneficial — if they’re about being sensitive to your partner, she said. “White lies are not OK when they’re meant to protect you, to hide things or cover up. There’s a big difference.”
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Post by lyn on May 24, 2017 12:24:18 GMT -5
Yeah - I'm thinking it's on the deal-breaker list. Why invest personally in someone if they disrespect you by lying - even dumb lies - from the start? Is 100% honesty too much to ask for? I don't think so. White lies aren't really necessary imho. One can be honest without being an a-hole. Just takes some tact I guess. White lies in relationships have a way of building up. You might start out by saying "I'm not hungry" to somebody you don't know very well instead of "I don't like the food you are offering me". Then when you get to know them a little bit better you might say "I would love to see you" even though you don't feel like it. Then you start dating and you are saying "No you don't look like a tangerine in that dress" if you know they don't have an opportunity to change it. Then you start saying "I don't mind that I didn't come" because you figure it is just a one off. And then you are avoiding the subject of sex because you know it makes them uncomfortable. And then 10 years have gone by and you are in a deeply passive aggressive sexless marriage and you can't talk to each other anymore because there is this huge abyss of half-truths and unspoken feelings in the space between you. Somewhere in there is probably a big grey area. And I am sure I may have gotten a bit idealistic recently But in my next relationship I would like to try and keep any of that greyness to an absolute minimum. If I can't say something that someone doesn't like without it having a negative impact on the relationship, then I think I would be better off not in it. ^^^ This is what I've been thinking - pretty much exactly unmatched. These little untruths that start at the very beginning are the pebbles that slowly fall, beginning the erosion process of what has become an actual "relationship". By the time one finds themselves here, at iliasm, the pebbles became rocks and boulders long ago leaving what was once a mountain (one's authentic self - full of esteem), and turned it into dust. Stay too long in this spot, and the erosion continues leaving a crater where your life should be. I'm just suggesting that trying to avoid unnecessary fibs and being wary of potential love interests that do drop white lies with ease could be part of a plan used to avoid findings oneself in another toxic relationship. Of course many many other things to consider, this is just one of them. |
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Post by lyn on May 24, 2017 12:39:12 GMT -5
Lots of good points baza . The thing is, I'm not a suspicious or naive person. I know people will lie to me - most of the time I won't even know it or if I do, won't really care. It's all about context. Part of what will follow me from this lovely sm is an inability to deal with a liar. Maybe my skin will thicken enough over time where little white lies won't bother me. I sure hope so if the alternative is flying solo for the rest of my life. Probably shouldn't even entertain these thoughts for a while anyway, yet, I do. I just came home from dinner with 5 ladies from my divorce recovery class. We were all very honest with each other , as we openly discussed our problems. There's not going to be any dating going on, and we all want, and need to help each other. We are going to continue to meet, and continue to share things.Not everything is going to come out at once. For one thing,, that would be too much to handle! However as the trust quickly develops, the walls come down. I think it's fair to say ,, that many of us on this sight, have had to build some P R E T T Y strong walls! We are talking about meeting another partner, dating? Dropping the walls ,being honest, vulnerable? Isn't that what I want when I go on a date, or meet a potential partner? I want to be my self as much as possible. The best way I know how to do that is to be with someone who is going to accept me, with all my flaws. That means being honest. That means being vulnerable, and taking risks, chances. Half truths? Ehh, .....those happen, that's part of life, to a degree. It's the big picture and giving it time. I hope to set the foundation, establish the boundaries, leading the way by being my self, open and honest, having no fear of any repercussion. And, and, I PRAY, that I will have learned how to spot the red flags of being lied too, and have the self confidence, and strength to walk away from it. I want that for all of us! This group sounds perfect, and I love that you have goals in mind with regard to the evolution of it. Sounds super beneficial for each of you. Spotting the red flags is a huge talent. One that I think we could all learn more about. I have a feeling you have this talent mastered by now greatcoastal. Think I'll start researching some type of irl support groups (kinda like the group you've formed) in the area where I'll be moving to soon. |
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Post by greatcoastal on May 24, 2017 14:30:10 GMT -5
I just came home from dinner with 5 ladies from my divorce recovery class. We were all very honest with each other , as we openly discussed our problems. There's not going to be any dating going on, and we all want, and need to help each other. We are going to continue to meet, and continue to share things.Not everything is going to come out at once. For one thing,, that would be too much to handle! However as the trust quickly develops, the walls come down. I think it's fair to say ,, that many of us on this sight, have had to build some P R E T T Y strong walls! We are talking about meeting another partner, dating? Dropping the walls ,being honest, vulnerable? Isn't that what I want when I go on a date, or meet a potential partner? I want to be my self as much as possible. The best way I know how to do that is to be with someone who is going to accept me, with all my flaws. That means being honest. That means being vulnerable, and taking risks, chances. Half truths? Ehh, .....those happen, that's part of life, to a degree. It's the big picture and giving it time. I hope to set the foundation, establish the boundaries, leading the way by being my self, open and honest, having no fear of any repercussion. And, and, I PRAY, that I will have learned how to spot the red flags of being lied too, and have the self confidence, and strength to walk away from it. I want that for all of us! This group sounds perfect, and I love that you have goals in mind with regard to the evolution of it. Sounds super beneficial for each of you. Spotting the red flags is a huge talent. One that I think we could all learn more about. I have a feeling you have this talent mastered by now greatcoastal . Think I'll start researching some type of irl support groups (kinda like the group you've formed) in the area where I'll be moving to soon. You, my friend, give me too much praise!! I did not form this group, no... it's been around a while. I found it advertised on meetup.com It's called "Divorce Recovery" The beginning book is called Growing Through Divorce by Jim Smoke. I've quoted parts of it before. (maybe I could be a councilor/group leeder in the future, maybe) We have people in all different stages in our class. Some who have been divorced for years, and are still trying to cope, and others who are considering ending their relationship. last night we had two young woman join our group. We have several generations in our class. It was "educational" to have them with us. 22 and 23 yrs old, neither one married or engaged, they both had boyfriends for over 4 yrs. They both say "my boyfriend dumped me for no reason, out of the blue" They were both quite shaken. They went on to say, " our generation is all about hooking up, first". Meanwhile we all introduced ourselves and shared a brief summary of our stories. How different it was from those of us who were "I was married 25 yrs" What I also found "interesting" was to hear them afterwards saying" How do we meet someone again, where do we go at our age, what do we do?" That was surprising. I thought only us older adults had those problems. I look forward to giving them years of wisdom, and learning from them as well. |
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Post by lifeinwoodinville on May 24, 2017 16:59:01 GMT -5
I lie to people every single day. Just today I said "Don't worry, we are doing everything we can to get your car out by the end of the day." Never ever going to happen. But the lie makes them feel better. Does this make me bad? If I "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" am I untrustworthy? Or funny? If I say "I'm staying a little late at work tonight" - and instead I'm buying Christmas presents, am I disrespecting you? Personally, a better "benchmark" is are they able to honest and trust worthy when it matters to you? Now some of this is rhetorical, (I told the customer that I wouldn't let his car go until I was satisfied that everything was correct) But I don't see this as a "either/or" issue. Like most things I think it is a matter of perspective. I tought about this today when I was in the McDonalds drive through. I paid the guy, he gave me my card back, I said "Thank you" and his response was "My pleasure!" My pleasure?! Really?! It was this guy's idea of pleasure to take my payment and hand my card back to me? If he is telling the truth I don't know if I should feel happy or sad for him. Happy that he can derive pleasure in such simple things, or sad that his life is so bereft of happiness and joy that he is reduced to receiving pleasure from taking payments from people in the drive through at McDonalds. Or maybe he wasn't entirely honest with me and he told me a little white lie. One designed to make me feel good about my transaction so I will come back again. Hmmm... |
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Post by lyn on May 24, 2017 17:27:10 GMT -5
I lie to people every single day. Just today I said "Don't worry, we are doing everything we can to get your car out by the end of the day." Never ever going to happen. But the lie makes them feel better. Does this make me bad? If I "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" am I untrustworthy? Or funny? If I say "I'm staying a little late at work tonight" - and instead I'm buying Christmas presents, am I disrespecting you? Personally, a better "benchmark" is are they able to honest and trust worthy when it matters to you? Now some of this is rhetorical, (I told the customer that I wouldn't let his car go until I was satisfied that everything was correct) But I don't see this as a "either/or" issue. Like most things I think it is a matter of perspective. I tought about this today when I was in the McDonalds drive through. I paid the guy, he gave me my card back, I said "Thank you" and his response was "My pleasure!" My pleasure?! Really?! It was this guy's idea of pleasure to take my payment and hand my card back to me? If he is telling the truth I don't know if I should feel happy or sad for him. Happy that he can derive pleasure in such simple things, or sad that his life is so bereft of happiness and joy that he is reduced to receiving pleasure from taking payments from people in the drive through at McDonalds. Or maybe he wasn't entirely honest with me and he told me a little white lie. One designed to make me feel good about my transaction so I will come back again. Hmmm... Kinda doubt he took much pleasure in giving you your coffee, but maybe he did 😉 Still just was asserting my opinion that it may be a good idea to avoid potential love interests with a tendency to lie. But, that's only my humble opinion. Society as a whole needs "softening of truths" in general in order to function. Can you imagine if everyone told the absolute truth day in and day out? This isnt hypocritical to the op - it's a completely different thing. But it is an interesting subject to ponder for sure. |
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But in my next relationship I would like to try and keep any of that greyness to an absolute minimum. If I can't say something that someone doesn't like without it having a negative impact on the relationship, then I think I would be better off not in it.
