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Post by JMX on May 23, 2017 22:16:56 GMT -5
An adult person has more agency than a dog that is tied up or a prisoner that is locked in a cell. An adult person usually has agency and can prioritize his or her miseries and make choices accordingly. They might be all shitty choices, but they are choices. I don't think anyone is arguing that a situation should be endurable or is kind or benign. Just as not all love should result in marriage, not all intimacy averse marriages that are harmful are abuse. If I stand too long in an inhospitable environment, it will result in my harm. That doesn't mean the environment is abusive. In some cases here, I'd say it is apparent that there IS abuse happening. But the withholding of sex, I don't really view as abuse and I don't see that calling it that brings anyone closer to remedy. Ah! Yes! But - the situation IS abusive. It is self-abusive. An abused child cannot remove themselves from the situation. The neglected dog cannot remove itself from it's chains. The adult who understands that the situation is fucked - is living their own choices. A refused spouse can tout X, Y and Z of said "abusive" spouse. I am equally sure that the refuser spouses could also rattle off their own list of discontent. I am guilty of this, and I am working on it. However, although I would probably gravitate towards many of you rather than your refuser spouses, stop cutting yourselves - you are creating your own scars.
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Post by baza on May 24, 2017 0:36:55 GMT -5
Interesting lines of thought by Apocrypha and JMXI figure that in a monogamous situation, one person unilaterally inflicting their sexual will on to the other person is abuse. Most commonly, this would be one spouse refusing to sexually engage the other. Less commonly, this would be one spouse forcing themself sexually on the other. (at the extreme end, rape) Both scenarios are full brothers to each other I reckon. In #1 - I have chosen not to have sex with you and what you might like is of no concern to me. In #2 - I have chosen to have sex with you and what you might like is of no concern to me. Both carry mental anguish for the spouse who does not even get a vote in proceedings. And of course #2 carries with it an implicit threat of violence. But both look like full brothers to each other in rationale.
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Post by JMX on May 24, 2017 0:43:07 GMT -5
baza - I should have actually credited YOU with the choice bit. How about if we say this: I choose to stay in my marriage, despite it not lining up with my wants/needs. I do this happily (for many reasons). OR: I choose to stay in my marriage because I am self-abusive and I enjoy the pain. Recognizing self-abuse is *maybe* more important than recognizing "abuse" heaped on you by your spouse.
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Post by baza on May 24, 2017 0:54:55 GMT -5
Best thing about your posts Sister JMX (and you too @apochrypha ) is that they invariably make me think, and look at things from a different perspective. And there's plenty to think on in this one too. Thanks.
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 24, 2017 7:16:40 GMT -5
baza - I should have actually credited YOU with the choice bit. How about if we say this: I choose to stay in my marriage, despite it not lining up with my wants/needs. I do this happily (for many reasons). OR: I choose to stay in my marriage because I am self-abusive and I enjoy the pain. Recognizing self-abuse is *maybe* more important than recognizing "abuse" heaped on you by your spouse. This observation is really good. Self abuse is exactly what it has been for me. She didn't do anything to me. I did it all to myself. I am having trouble finding my way out.
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Post by northstarmom on May 24, 2017 8:48:54 GMT -5
JMX's suggestion of framing staying in a SM, "I choose to stay in my marriage, despite it not lining up with my wants/needs. I do this happily (for many reasons," works for the rare refused people who really can implement it. But, from what I've seen here and from my own experience, most people who choose to stay in a SM aren't able to do it "happily." They do it grudgingly, resentfully, regretfully or with resignation or deep sorrow. I didn't feel happiness until I decided to divorce.
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Post by northstarmom on May 24, 2017 9:12:45 GMT -5
Padgemi, Some therapists, deans and guidance counselors have said things suggesting that instead of divorcing when kids are in college, it would be better to divorce before. "While most of the concerns regarding the impact of divorce on children are focused on younger children living at home, divorce also impacts older children. College aged children often have a strong reaction to divorce that parents are unprepared to handle. This issue is gaining increased relevance as more older couples are undergoing divorce, leading to many children receiving the dreaded “freshman call” announcing that their parents are getting a divorce. If you and your spouse have decided to get a divorce, here are some helpful tips for helping your college aged children deal with this major life change: If you are divorcing at this time in your child’s life, keep the following in mind: Concept of home is lost – College may be the first time that your child is on their own. While most kids relish the independence of college, in many ways home becomes more important as a base of familiarity and stability. With the news of divorce the idea of home may be lost. He may worry that he won’t have a place to go over the break or be sad about the loss of his childhood home. Feelings of guilt – While younger kids tend to worry that they are the cause of a divorce, college aged kids often have feeling of guilt that they could have done something to help save their parents’ marriage. These feelings can exist even if the child knows that the marriage was troubled. Shock – While many college aged kids have the maturity and insight to understand may see troubles in their parents’ marriage, one study found that college aged kids often romanticized their parents relationship and felt they grew up in the “all-American family”. For these kids, the news of an impending divorce can be a complete surprise." drconklindanao.com/college-aged-kids-divorce/Important to remember is that whenever you divorce, your children will be impacted. One can always find an offspring-base reason not to divorce. Not divorcing also impacts them because they may model their own relationships on what they see in yours. It's also important to realize that divorcing your spouse doesn't mean you'll be divorcing your children. You still can be an involved parent. My own experience was that I grew up amidst parents in a sexless, contempt-filled, affectionless marriage. They stayed together "for the sake of the children." As a teen, I wished they would divorce. As an adult, I'm sorry that they never divorced. It was very difficult for me to unlearn things that I had grown up thinking were normal in relationships. For instance, from the time that I was about 6, my parents had separate bedrooms. I only remember my father affectionately touching my mother one time, in relationships. For instance, from the time that I was about 6, my parents had separate bedrooms. I only remember my father affectionately touching my mother one time. As a result, I thought my own marriage was wonderful because even though my ex and I hadn't had sex for years, at least he'd hold my hand when we went out, and he'd give me a (brief) kiss in the morning and evening. And he spoke to me with kindness, not contempt.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 9:14:17 GMT -5
JMX's suggestion of framing staying in a SM, "I choose to stay in my marriage, despite it not lining up with my wants/needs. I do this happily (for many reasons," works for the rare refused people who really can implement it. But, from what I've seen here and from my own experience, most people who choose to stay in a SM aren't able to do it "happily." They do it grudgingly, resentfully, regretfully or with resignation or deep sorrow. I didn't feel happiness until I decided to divorce. Northstarmom, that was very profound. There are very few marriages where both partners are happy with no sex. Since I moved out, I am slowly becoming myself again.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 9:19:58 GMT -5
I am so on the "college plan". And when I send those little darlings off to college, I am so out the door. I am also considering the " jobs plan": once they both have cars and jobs I may leave then, but 16 thru 18 is a critical time for girls. Thoughts? I have two daughters myself. Unfortunately, there is no convenient time to divorce. It will always affect the children. My daughters were extremely upset with me when I moved out. Luckily, they are very close with my sister, who has spoken to both of them quite a bit. She is very supportive of my decision. On the plus side, I did avoid custody & child support issues. My main concern was what would happen to my daughters when they were alone with my wife. She is very controlling and abusive. Now that they are older, I don't have to worry about that as much.
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Post by shamwow on May 24, 2017 13:24:20 GMT -5
I am so on the "college plan". And when I send those little darlings off to college, I am so out the door. I am also considering the " jobs plan": once they both have cars and jobs I may leave then, but 16 thru 18 is a critical time for girls. Thoughts? I might be a little odd here, but one of the reasons I'm leaving my wife now is so that she WILL get child support. If I waited until the kids were in college (about 5 years from now), she would have had to start over in her 50's with 25 years of marriage behind us and out of the work force for decades. I still care about her (she IS the mother of my children after all), and want her to end up on her feet. As a SAHM, waiting until the kids are gone, I would have been cutting her legs out from under her. Granted, there are times I want to strangle her, but those feelings pass and my better angels return. Right now, she might not see me leaving her as an act of mercy, but it will result in an additional 100k flowing into her pocket over the next 5 years (in addition to $300k she is getting in the divorce). If she can't land on her feet with that, then I can do no more for her and my conscience is clear.
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Post by JMX on May 24, 2017 13:54:10 GMT -5
JMX's suggestion of framing staying in a SM, "I choose to stay in my marriage, despite it not lining up with my wants/needs. I do this happily (for many reasons," works for the rare refused people who really can implement it. But, from what I've seen here and from my own experience, most people who choose to stay in a SM aren't able to do it "happily." They do it grudgingly, resentfully, regretfully or with resignation or deep sorrow. I didn't feel happiness until I decided to divorce. Excellent point - so then, option #2 applies. The people who do it begrudgingly, resentfully, regretfully and with resignation or deep sorrow are practicing self-abuse. Congrats! I am glad you are happy after deciding to divorce. It makes absolute sense.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 14:08:35 GMT -5
I might be a little odd here, but one of the reasons I'm leaving my wife now is so that she WILL get child support. If I waited until the kids were in college (about 5 years from now), she would have had to start over in her 50's with 25 years of marriage behind us and out of the work force for decades. I still care about her (she IS the mother of my children after all), and want her to end up on her feet. As a SAHM, waiting until the kids are gone, I would have been cutting her legs out from under her. Granted, there are times I want to strangle her, but those feelings pass and my better angels return. Right now, she might not see me leaving her as an act of mercy, but it will result in an additional 100k flowing into her pocket over the next 5 years (in addition to $300k she is getting in the divorce). If she can't land on her feet with that, then I can do no more for her and my conscience is clear. Shammy, you may not be a church-goer, but that is a very Godly attitude. I really admire you for doing this.
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Post by shamwow on May 24, 2017 15:12:08 GMT -5
I might be a little odd here, but one of the reasons I'm leaving my wife now is so that she WILL get child support. If I waited until the kids were in college (about 5 years from now), she would have had to start over in her 50's with 25 years of marriage behind us and out of the work force for decades. I still care about her (she IS the mother of my children after all), and want her to end up on her feet. As a SAHM, waiting until the kids are gone, I would have been cutting her legs out from under her. Granted, there are times I want to strangle her, but those feelings pass and my better angels return. Right now, she might not see me leaving her as an act of mercy, but it will result in an additional 100k flowing into her pocket over the next 5 years (in addition to $300k she is getting in the divorce). If she can't land on her feet with that, then I can do no more for her and my conscience is clear. Shammy, you may not be a church-goer, but that is a very Godly attitude. I really admire you for doing this. Let's just call it enlightened self interest. One does not have to be a church-goer (I'd probably burst into flame if I entered a church) to be kind. And to be clear, my STBX is nothing like many of the others here (yours included). She is a really good woman, just a terrible wife who married me under false pretenses. I don't hate her, and there is no reason we can't go our separate ways and try to find what happiness we can. I truly hope she does find happiness on her path. But thank you for the compliment. I respect the way you're handling your difficult situation as well, brother. Texas isn't that big (something that can only be said by someone who lives here). Once I am emancipated I plan on riding my motorcycle all over. Perhaps we can break bread sometime.
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Post by Apocrypha on May 24, 2017 15:42:58 GMT -5
Interesting lines of thought by Apocrypha and JMX I figure that in a monogamous situation, one person unilaterally inflicting their sexual will on to the other person is abuse. Most commonly, this would be one spouse refusing to sexually engage the other. Less commonly, this would be one spouse forcing themself sexually on the other. (at the extreme end, rape) Both scenarios are full brothers to each other I reckon. In #1 - I have chosen not to have sex with you and what you might like is of no concern to me. In #2 - I have chosen to have sex with you and what you might like is of no concern to me. Both carry mental anguish for the spouse who does not even get a vote in proceedings. And of course #2 carries with it an implicit threat of violence. But both look like full brothers to each other in rationale. It isn't really inflicting a sexual will on someone though; it's a total lack or aversion. The situation isn't monogamous; it's celibate. Refusing to engage in a romantic/sexual expression in what is ostensibly an intimate relationship that is defined or differentiated by mutual romantic/sexual investment, means the nature or format of the relationship has already changed into something else. Abuse implies intent. While contempt usually rides the side-car of sexual abandonment on one side or both (perhaps the reason for romantic aversion), the aversion usually seems to play out as disinterest in the particular partner or relationship circumstances. Change those circumstances (end the marriage, change the person), and the interest in sex returns. It's hard to fault someone for not seeking or wanting sex, or for being turned off by it when you don't want to have it with a person. As a single man, I have considered the few times I've been having sex or have felt social obligation to have sex with someone I didn't want it with. My avoidance of it wasn't intended to abuse (I cared for them deeply). Of course none of this necessarily changes what the response is or should be to this situation.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 25, 2017 18:41:53 GMT -5
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