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Post by seabr33z3 on May 16, 2017 8:18:56 GMT -5
Certainly not romantic love. Brotherly/ Sisterly love maybe...
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Post by novembercomingfire on May 16, 2017 8:24:09 GMT -5
Certainly not romantic love. Brotherly/ Sisterly love maybe... Friend zone in my case. |
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Post by shamwow on May 16, 2017 8:54:51 GMT -5
They may love you in a way that is meaningful to them. It probably is not a way meaningful to you.if you aren't getting the love you want, better to admit that you can't make your spouse love you the way you want. Admitting that makes it easier to decide to let go of a relationship that never will suit your needs. If they know they don't love you, but also know they love the benefits of being married to you, they have every reason not to tell you they don't love you. They want to keep you in the marriage that is a convenience to them. If you decide to divorce them, they want you to feel guilty so they get an unfairly generous settlement. I don't know if she "loves me" or not. At this point, I can't say that I really care. In 41 days, the state of Texas will grant a divorce, and at that point, it will probably be better she is NOT still saying she loves me (easier at least). In the two years before we got married, it was great. The instant we returned from the honeymoon? Well, that started the 20 year slide I find myself at the bottom of now. I've served 3 roles in that 20 years: Sperm donor, dad, and ATM machine. I will be quitting two of those "jobs" and embrace the remaining one with even more vigor and enthusiasm than I currently do. (uh, the Dad one if there is any confusion) |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 9:00:45 GMT -5
But try getting them to admit they no longer love you! On my case, the last time my wife said "I love you" to me was on March 18, 2004. It was the day my son was born. When reading her my letter telling her I wanted a divorce o stared that I no longer loved her and she no longer loved me. Christ on a cracker! She went off on that one. How dare I assume to tell her if she loves me or nit! I can't see into her heart. Fair enough,and good points. But she still never said she loved me... This is the kind of thing that really gets to me. A refuser saying that you cannot see into his/her heart does have a point, however, that is not the only way we know someone's mental state. For example, to convict someone of murder, I have to prove that the person intentionally or knowingly caused the death of another person. It is obvious that no one can read minds, so how do I prove a mental state? BY THEIR ACTIONS!! If Tom picked up an 8 inch butcher knife, looked directly at Mike, and stuck it in his belly, it is very obvious to any person that he intended to cause his death or knew that it could happen. Similarly, if FrigidGirl is married to ShammyBoy, but never tells him that she loves him and never has sex with him, it is a very reasonable conclusion that she does NOT love him. And it is also very obvious to any reasonable person that she does not love him. |
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Post by greatcoastal on May 16, 2017 9:02:54 GMT -5
I have been thinking of writing this for a while, but I was hesitant because many refused spouses may not be ready to read it, but I have decided that we all need to hear it. It is, of course, only my opinion, but I have to say it. If you are being sexually refused by your spouse for any extended length of time, you are being betrayed. It is sexual betrayal of the most insidious kind. It is insidious because it is continual denial of the most basic part of marriage. Sex is understood to be an essential part of marriage. Of course, there are medical and/or psychological reasons that a spouse may not be able to have sex, but then one has to ask if that spouse is actively seeking treatment to resolve the issue. If the spouse refuses to seek treatment, he/she is consciously deciding to betray his/her spouse. But this is the part that has really hit me the last few months. My refuser did not love me. If she did, she would have at least been nice about refusing sex. Instead, whenever I brought it up, she would tell me that it didn’t matter because my penis didn’t even work any more (By the way, I have sought out a second opinion, and she is mistaken). So I have to tell you, if your spouse is a refuser, HE OR SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU!!! You can say that he/she is a wonderful person, a great friend, and you have a wonderful marriage except for this one little thing. But the truth is this: YOUR REFUSER DOES NOT LOVE YOU!!! But try getting them to admit they no longer love you! On my case, the last time my wife said "I love you" to me was on March 18, 2004. It was the day my son was born. When reading her my letter telling her I wanted a divorce o stared that I no longer loved her and she no longer loved me. Christ on a cracker! She went off on that one. How dare I assume to tell her if she loves me or nit! I can't see into her heart. Fair enough,and good points. But she still never said she loved me... Off course you can't see into her heart. After pro-creation she closed it right back up again. As your STBX continues to demonize the people who disagree with her, she's going to end up being the only one left! When you protect yourself you can't be yourself. You have to become a soldier! You have to always be PROVING they are wrong (since they are so entrenched in "my way only") You have to prepare your arguments! You have to document, and repeat their words! You have to be ready for gas lighting, projection, control, blanket statements, moving of the goalpost, changing the subject, evading accountability, etc....You must never, ever, let your guard down! And you know what happens? Pretty soon you've created a prison in which your forced to live. Not a lovely place is it? And not a whole lot of freedom there either. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that read, "I'm woman, I'm strong, I'm in your face...I'm tired." Well, I' m tired too. I quit. I know feel a whole lot better. AND I'M FREE!!! |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 9:12:07 GMT -5
They may love you in a way that is meaningful to them. It probably is not a way meaningful to you.if you aren't getting the love you want, better to admit that you can't make your spouse love you the way you want. Admitting that makes it easier to decide to let go of a relationship that never will suit your needs. If they know they don't love you, but also know they love the benefits of being married to you, they have every reason not to tell you they don't love you. They want to keep you in the marriage that is a convenience to them. If you decide to divorce them, they want you to feel guilty so they get an unfairly generous settlement. thank you for your comment, but I must respectfully disagree. A refusing spouse cannot love his or her spouse. The refuser may love a friend, a roommate, or a coparent, but not a spouse. If a person loves his/her spouse, that person cannot force that spouse into a life of celibacy. Marital love cannot do that. So if you are married to someone, and force that person into a life of celibacy, your spousal love for that person has ended. Again, this is just my opinion. |
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Post by greatcoastal on May 16, 2017 9:15:30 GMT -5
Certainly not romantic love. Brotherly/ Sisterly love maybe... Friend zone in my case. With friends like that...... (you know the rest!) |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 9:17:31 GMT -5
When you protect yourself you can't be yourself. You have to become a soldier! You have to always be PROVING they are wrong (since they are so entrenched in "my way only" You have to prepare your arguments! You have to document, and repeat their words! You have to be ready for gas, lighting, projection, control, blanket statements, moving of the goalpost, changing the subject, evading accountability, etc....You must never, ever, let your guard down! And you know what happens? Pretty soon you've created a prison in which your forced to live. Not a lovely place is it? And not a whole lot of freedom there either. I saw a bumper sticker the other day that read, "I'm woman, I'm strong, I'm in your face...I'm tired." Well, I' m tired too. I quit. I know feel a whole lot better. AND I'M FREE!!! This is very profound, GC. For 28 years, I lived in a constant state of defensiveness. I was always on guard, waiting for the next attack. I slept with one eye open, waiting to be screamed at. I also slept on the edge of a king sized bed, in a fetal position, to be as protected as I could possibly be. Frankly, I have no idea how I survived. But the good part is that I have developed incredible patience. Also, I am always prepared. I have taken up judo & with the exception of the instructors, I cannot be thrown, pinned or submitted. PS-I have spoken to Dr. Palmatier. shrink4men.com She really encouraged me to get the hell out. |
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Post by shamwow on May 16, 2017 9:34:01 GMT -5
But try getting them to admit they no longer love you! On my case, the last time my wife said "I love you" to me was on March 18, 2004. It was the day my son was born. When reading her my letter telling her I wanted a divorce o stared that I no longer loved her and she no longer loved me. Christ on a cracker! She went off on that one. How dare I assume to tell her if she loves me or nit! I can't see into her heart. Fair enough,and good points. But she still never said she loved me... This is the kind of thing that really gets to me. A refuser saying that you cannot see into his/her heart does have a point, however, that is not the only way we know someone's mental state. For example, to convict someone of murder, I have to prove that the person intentionally or knowingly caused the death of another person. It is obvious that no one can read minds, so how do I prove a mental state? BY THEIR ACTIONS!! If Tom picked up an 8 inch butcher knife, looked directly at Mike, and stuck it in his belly, it is very obvious to any person that he intended to cause his death or knew that it could happen. Similarly, if FrigidGirl is married to ShammyBoy, but never tells him that she loves him and never has sex with him, it is a very reasonable conclusion that she does NOT love him. And it is also very obvious to any reasonable person that she does not love him. Exactly! When I told my sister about this situation, she first asked "ok, well if sex is out, how are the blow jobs and hand jobs?" I literally burst out laughing...People not in our situation just don't get it (as well meaning as they may be). After I explained the actual meaning of "sexless", she responded by saying "what the hell did she think was going to happen?" Hence, I completely agree with you assertion that actions (or lack thereof) matter in the absence of words. |
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Post by iceman on May 16, 2017 9:55:33 GMT -5
It's a sad and hard truth to face but it's also liberating in some ways. I've come to realize that my wife loves me to the degree she's able but she's never been 'in love' with me, and that's a huge difference. Once I realized that I felt like so much more made sense and my stress level went down. No more begging for sex and trying to figure out why she refused me. No more trying to figure out if there was something wrong with me. No more trying to figure out how I could get my wife to sexually engage in our marriage. She engaged in sex those infrequent times when we had sex because she wanted sex for some reason. It had nothing to do with her feeling love for me or a wanting me to be happy. After I realized that the paradigm had shifted and I started looking after my own feelings without concern for hers.
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Post by seabr33z3 on May 16, 2017 10:15:13 GMT -5
Certainly not romantic love. Brotherly/ Sisterly love maybe... Friend zone in my case. Not even, in mine |
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Post by Apocrypha on May 16, 2017 10:53:33 GMT -5
Is there really a huge correlation with sex and love? It's nice when they align, but they don't necessarily.
I love my kids, my family, likely some of my friends. Maybe I still love a part of my ex-wife and past loves in some form. I recall feeling shaken when I thought she had taken her life. But I don't want to have sex with her anymore. Love can exist without a romantic or sexual intention. If I'm to take my ex-wife at her word, she still loves me and always did, in her way. In her version of the tale, her best love wasn't good enough for me because it didn't include sexual desire for me.
Likewise, I've had all kinds of sex with women whom I did not love. I still wanted to have sex with them.
I suspect that if our language was more specific to the conceptual framework we're thinking of, we'd have a better time discussing it.
I don't agree with the notion that withholding sex is abuse. If it's a harm, it's more akin to manslaughter than murder, and the more apt remedy is likely termination of the marriage. To my mind, the greater crime isn't so much one of withholding sex, but rather withholding authenticity about the situation, and having the courage to work to the detriment of one's own priorities to relieve the burden of the others.
I don't mean this in the sense that a person should have sex with someone they don't want to have sex with. I've had that and it's horrible. Nothing good will come of that for anyone. It's not abusive to prevent that from happening.
The ethical issue is more like dating a millionaire with whom you don't have a romantic interest. The moral obligation is to act with authenticity about the feelings that form the basis of the partnership, though it might mean losing the benefits of that partnership that one values.
But even then - there are countless stories of spouses telling their partners "I am not interested in you sexually" and that information being ignored. I just find the whole "...then she doesn't love you" or "... then he is abusing you" arguments to be unnecessary leaps. It's hard to know what is in a person's heart, and it can be hard to reach that far when deciding what to do in this kind of situation. It's just an extra implication to prove.
Working with what you HAVE - you have a person who is averse to having sex with you. If your idea of a romantic partnership includes sexual expression, then this is enough to change the nature of the relationship to something more authentic (something that is not a romantic partnership).
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Post by WindSister on May 16, 2017 11:21:52 GMT -5
I agree with so many of you on here but then Aprocryhpa's post made the most sense to me. It's simple. It's reality.
Fact is, a lot of us (maybe not all, but a lot) ignored warning signs in the beginning because we didn't really fully know what we were doing (or we just ignored the signs and chose marriage for other reasons than love/romantic love). So I know I for sure can't say my ex abused me. He was always himself - we can never change someone. See with eyes wide open and either accept or move on.
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Post by bballgirl on May 16, 2017 11:35:47 GMT -5
Is there really a huge correlation with sex and love? It's nice when they align, but they don't necessarily. I love my kids, my family, likely some of my friends. Maybe I still love a part of my ex-wife and past loves in some form. I recall feeling shaken when I thought she had taken her life. But I don't want to have sex with her anymore. Love can exist without a romantic or sexual intention. If I'm to take my ex-wife at her word, she still loves me and always did, in her way. In her version of the tale, her best love wasn't good enough for me because it didn't include sexual desire for me. Likewise, I've had all kinds of sex with women whom I did not love. I still wanted to have sex with them. I suspect that if our language was more specific to the conceptual framework we're thinking of, we'd have a better time discussing it. I don't agree with the notion that withholding sex is abuse. If it's a harm, it's more akin to manslaughter than murder, and the more apt remedy is likely termination of the marriage. To my mind, the greater crime isn't so much one of withholding sex, but rather withholding authenticity about the situation, and having the courage to work to the detriment of one's own priorities to relieve the burden of the others. I don't mean this in the sense that a person should have sex with someone they don't want to have sex with. I've had that and it's horrible. Nothing good will come of that for anyone. It's not abusive to prevent that from happening. The ethical issue is more like dating a lottery winner or a millionaire with whom you don't have a romantic interest, or where the disconnection is too great. The obligation is to act with authenticity about the feelings that form the basis of the partnership, though it might mean losing the benefits of that partnership that one values. But even then - there are countless stories on here of spouses telling their partners "I am not interested in you sexually" and that information being ignored. I just find the whole "...then she doesn't love you" or "... then he is abusing you" arguments to be unnecessary leaps. It's hard to know what is in a person's heart, and it can be hard to reach that far when deciding what to do in this kind of situation - it's just an extra implication to prove. Working with what you HAVE - you have a person who is averse to having sex with you - and if your idea of a romantic partnership includes sexual expression - then this is enough to change the nature of the relationship to something more authentic (something that is not a romantic partnership). Yes hindsight is 20/20. The key is to learn from our mistakes. And no sex and love are not exclusive. I believe there are 2 types of love - 1) love for family and 2) romantic love which for me requires sex but it doesn't for everyone as we all know. To me romantic love is perishable and our love for our children and parents is unconditional and everlasting. With romantic love the absence of whatever makes a person feel loved leads to to perishing of the romantic love and eventual downfall of the relationship to thrive and continue to cultivate itself. A couple either grows together or apart. On a side note sometimes I think some of the best most uninhibited sex was with the absence of love and strings attached. However I do believe that the best of both worlds can exist together, I'm still looking for my Perverted Prince Charming. |
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Post by greatcoastal on May 16, 2017 12:00:08 GMT -5
I just find the whole "...then she doesn't love you" or "... then he is abusing you" arguments to be unnecessary leaps. It's hard to know what is in a person's heart, and it can be hard to reach that far when deciding what to do in this kind of situation - it's just an extra implication to prove. Working with what you HAVE - you have a person who is averse to having sex with you - and ........ And, years (decades) after the sex/intimacy stopped , the mental abuse that was easily hidden, begins to show it's face, in every other aspect of your marriage. Proving she/he doesn't love you, or is incapable of ever truly loving someone else. Those of us who have endured years of counselling, and failed attempts, repeatedly being controlled, manipulated, rejected, taken, hoovered, baited, love bombed,devalued, conditioned, threatened, evaded, etc..., is by no means hard to reach, and hard to prove. Others in the family, others who work with them, others who have met them, when they hear "the truth" they too see the lack of love and abuse that people are capable of. Far more beyond , just sex. Thank you, truly, for the rest of your wonderful input, and the time it takes to do it! |
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