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Post by Rhapsodee on May 2, 2017 21:31:37 GMT -5
We all knew there was a problem with the marriage but she was ostracized by her "best friends." They all took his side. That man is such a dud. He had no friendships in the neighborhood but she was the bad guy. This behavior (of her "best friends" now ostracizing her) is just blatant selfishness: they were afraid if they green lighted her behavior, THEY might inadvertently encourage their own spouses to consider the same. Or show their hand that they are already fooling around themselves! Such a shame. I agree. I think it was the refusers that were most vocal. |
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Post by Dan on May 2, 2017 21:39:19 GMT -5
How can it be "cheating" if there is no intimacy or sexual relationship in the marriage? I believe that it is hypocritical, unreasonable, selfish, and cruel to deny your partner intimacy and sex and expect them to just deal with it. A cheater is someone that has a trusting sexual relationship with their spouse but also has sexual encounters outside the marriage. I think we are just talking past each other. Meaning: we are just talking about TWO different concepts, but trying to use the same word. Cheating-1: to carry on sexual intimacy with someone other than who you have committed to sexual fidelity/exclusivity. Cheating-2: any unfair treatment regarding sexual intimacy in the marriage (including withholding sex). The first is not "ethically loaded" any more than defining what "standing" is. The second one becomes an ethical question, because it treads into the concept of "unfair". I think I'm in the minority on this thread by attempting to discuss/define "cheating-1". But that is what I felt Carol (the OP) was asking about: does her behavior cross some universal line of "cheating"? I understand (and mostly agree with) the posts discussing "cheating-2": in the case of a sexless marriage, the "refuser was unfaithful first, so seeking intimate attention outside THAT particular marriage is justified". Why do the refusers get to decide what's "cheating"? I don't think it's "refusers" I think it's "spouses" who get to choose. Because this isn't an issue restricted to SM. This is an issue in all marriages. Bingo. If someone steals my car, so I steal his boat... I'm still stealing because taking someone else's property without permission is still stealing. That is the sense that I'm discussing "cheating-1". Now, my action (taking the boat) might be fair, justified, and/or reasonable. That is the sense that many others here are discussing "cheating-2". |
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Post by GeekGoddess on May 2, 2017 22:24:13 GMT -5
Carol - I don't think you are cheating. Here's the litmus for me on this: Do you act differently (like flirting, suggestive or off-color comments, actions or statements to encourage whatever fantasy)? Or do you just daydream & leave it at that? I don't feel that it's cheating to "have crushes" on other people. I was definitely cheated out of some years of my sex life - unilateral celibacy was only a stepping stone in the dissolution of my relationship & eventually marriage. And I can never get those years back. I was cheated out of fragile self-esteem & I've spent lots of time with counselors to work on restoring that, along with other right-thinking. I had a crush on a big-wig at work during the spring I found EP. I couldn't act on it (literally did not have access to do so). I definitely don't think of that as me cheating. Like others have said, though, the answer to your question is really only inside you (your heart, spirit, etc) I do not "count" this as cheating anyone out of anything they want. Just indulging in a little fantasy & giving your spirit a bit of escape, like bballgirl described so well.
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Post by shamwow on May 2, 2017 22:27:03 GMT -5
Why do the refusers get to decide what's "cheating"? I don't think it's "refusers" I think it's "spouses" who get to choose. Because this isn't an issue restricted to SM. This is an issue in all marriages. I was once told "If you wouldn't tell your partner, It's cheating." I'm not sure I agree with that but it's as good a definition as I heard. What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 23:11:20 GMT -5
Carol,
It's not cheating on your husband if you decide to outsource. Your husband has robbed you of years of a healthy sexual relationship. Your husband is a shitty person for not taking care of your sexual needs. I hope you find a man who will meet those needs. No need to suffer low self esteem or be unhappy. If you have a curiosity, you should try it. Don't let silly social repressive mores stop your from living your life. I promise you that there are many men out there who want a loving and sensual woman. They will appreciate you and you'll wonder why you waited so long.
It's hard for me to see outsourcing as cheating especially when a spouse is not meeting this need. I'm not justifying it. It's seem very clear cut to me. There may be Stockholm Syndrome going on when people will not outsource because they think it's wrong to outsource. But at the same time there willing to accept the cruel behavior of withholding sex and intimacy.
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Post by Rhapsodee on May 2, 2017 23:37:13 GMT -5
I don't think it's "refusers" I think it's "spouses" who get to choose. Because this isn't an issue restricted to SM. This is an issue in all marriages. I was once told "If you wouldn't tell your partner, It's cheating." I'm not sure I agree with that but it's as good a definition as I heard. What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years You haven't seen her naked in three years!?!? Hmmmmm. I recall someone writing somewhere, here or on EP that she hadn't seen her husband naked in as many years. She surprised him one day and saw that he was completely shaved. She knew when she saw this that he was having an affair. Why else would a man shave his dangly bits? He confessed when she confronted him. If you're outsourcing don't hide your body. If you decide to shave, do it in front of them. Ask your refuser what they think about it. Tell them the truth, "I like it, it feels very clean." |
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Post by Rhapsodee on May 3, 2017 0:35:20 GMT -5
It is universally accepted that it's wrong to have sex outside of the marriage. If you're found out, no matter what your situation is, the universe will judge you as a cheat. The refusers will be the first to throw the stone.
No one judges the refuser.
No one tells them that they should feel guilt for refusing. They have a right to refuse. It is their body after all. They get to decide who touches it and when.
I know of so many marriages in my social circle that are sexless. I appear to be the only one that has a problem with the state of affairs. Some of the women I know are the refusers. They are callous in their disdain of sex. They laugh at my little snippets. They think I'm funny because I look so conservative. They laugh that I actually like and want sex.
We are so totally screwed and un-screwed. The only safe option is to leave. If you can't leave you stay and outsource. CYA.
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Post by wewbwb on May 3, 2017 5:46:44 GMT -5
I don't think it's "refusers" I think it's "spouses" who get to choose. Because this isn't an issue restricted to SM. This is an issue in all marriages. I was once told "If you wouldn't tell your partner, It's cheating." I'm not sure I agree with that but it's as good a definition as I heard. What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years If you chose porn over your wife -or heroin, weed, alcohol, work, kids, exercise(ugh), model trains, real trains, movies, tv, video games or sports or competitive pistol shooting... Any activity that excludes your spouse they have a good argument that you left the marriage and cheated. My point about this is that it is an individual thing. One couples "he's married to work" is another's "he's a good provider". To me, it sounds like we are trying to justify our actions because we are trying to deal with difficult situations. If you are okay with your actions, really truly at peace with them, would we be trying to justify them? I think most of us aren't. I think most of us are angry because we feel that we were "driven" to things we didn't want as a replacement for intimacy and affection we didn't get. And just so that we are all clear, I am talking about one person in particular. Wewbwb. If you identify, fine. If not fine. I know personally that anger and resentment will destroy relationships. I think the first thing we need to decide is if we are making decisions and splitting hairs to protect ourselves. Anyway, the fart jokes aren't going to write themselves... Besides, I could be wrong. |
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Post by hopingforachange on May 3, 2017 6:11:57 GMT -5
wewbwb I agree with what you said. I will add that going outside the marriage is something easy to see and understand for people to judge. Understanding the psychological damaged the refusers are doing to use is another and forcing them would go against thier body autonomy. I think at lunchtime I am going to go outside my marriage. I need to hear my girl screem and rider her hard. Put the Spurs to her as the saying goes. There might even be a few marks left on my knees and of course on her to. But she can take it and loves it, it was what she was meant to do.
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Post by h on May 3, 2017 6:43:55 GMT -5
What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years If you chose porn over your wife -or heroin, weed, alcohol, work, kids, exercise(ugh), model trains, real trains, movies, tv, video games or sports or competitive pistol shooting... Any activity that excludes your spouse they have a good argument that you left the marriage and cheated. My point about this is that it is an individual thing. One couples "he's married to work" is another's "he's a good provider". To me, it sounds like we are trying to justify our actions because we are trying to deal with difficult situations. If you are okay with your actions, really truly at peace with them, would we be trying to justify them? I think most of us aren't. I think most of us are angry because we feel that we were "driven" to things we didn't want as a replacement for intimacy and affection we didn't get. And just so that we are all clear, I am talking about one person in particular. Wewbwb. If you identify, fine. If not fine. I know personally that anger and resentment will destroy relationships. I think the first thing we need to decide is if we are making decisions and splitting hairs to protect ourselves. Anyway, the fart jokes aren't going to write themselves... Besides, I could be wrong. I think the difference is that most of us would choose our spouses over the porn (and model trains...) but we aren't given that choice. Yes, choosing something else first would be wrong but is it wrong when it's really the second, third, or tenth choice down the list? |
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Post by shamwow on May 3, 2017 7:49:08 GMT -5
What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years You haven't seen her naked in three years!?!? Hmmmmm. I recall someone writing somewhere, here or on EP that she hadn't seen her husband naked in as many years. She surprised him one day and saw that he was completely shaved. She knew when she saw this that he was having an affair. Why else would a man shave his dangly bits? He confessed when she confronted him. If you're outsourcing don't hide your body. If you decide to shave, do it in front of them. Ask your refuser what they think about it. Tell them the truth, "I like it, it feels very clean." Honestly, I keep myself manscaped very cleanly because I don't like hairs getting yanked, because I find it sweats less down there if I do, and honestly, because it makes my junk look bigger (can use all the help I can get).  |
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Post by shamwow on May 3, 2017 7:53:25 GMT -5
What about jerking off to porn? I wouldn't have told my wife I did it but don't consider it "cheating" especially since I haven't seen her naked in almost 3 years If you chose porn over your wife -or heroin, weed, alcohol, work, kids, exercise(ugh), model trains, real trains, movies, tv, video games or sports or competitive pistol shooting... Any activity that excludes your spouse they have a good argument that you left the marriage and cheated. My point about this is that it is an individual thing. One couples "he's married to work" is another's "he's a good provider". To me, it sounds like we are trying to justify our actions because we are trying to deal with difficult situations. If you are okay with your actions, really truly at peace with them, would we be trying to justify them? I think most of us aren't. I think most of us are angry because we feel that we were "driven" to things we didn't want as a replacement for intimacy and affection we didn't get. And just so that we are all clear, I am talking about one person in particular. Wewbwb. If you identify, fine. If not fine. I know personally that anger and resentment will destroy relationships. I think the first thing we need to decide is if we are making decisions and splitting hairs to protect ourselves. Anyway, the fart jokes aren't going to write themselves... Besides, I could be wrong. Oh, rationalization is one of my favorite activities. The sad part is that I can identify with several of the behaviors you mention above to avoid contact with my spouse. I've been doing them for many many years now since there is no desire on her part. Could I have tried harder? Of course. But it is what it is. And that's why in 54 days I'm on track to go in front of a judge and divorce will be granted. It isn't exclusively her fault. She just told the initial lie after the honeymoon that set the stage for all that was to come. And I think penis jokes are funnier. Or perhaps celebrity look-alike-jokes |
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Post by wewbwb on May 3, 2017 9:06:21 GMT -5
shamwow No one. Ever. Ever. Has accused me of being "rational" (in any tense of the word) - so thank you for that. All I am trying to illustrate is that MY vows of marriage are mine. Regardless of what my spouse does, My vows are mine. This can be expanded by 30% - but I won't. What constitutes "acceptable" behavior in a marriage by both partners is up to them. Do the ends justify the means?
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Post by doneanddone on May 3, 2017 13:27:33 GMT -5
It has been so long since I've had sex, if and when I do again in the near future, I would literally feel like I was cheating on this unknown, faceless, women that I have yet to meet......
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