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Post by shamwow on May 2, 2017 8:29:23 GMT -5
At heart, a marriage is a contract between two people:
I,(name), take (name),as my wedded partner, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part.
As a contract there are two things. The "meat" of the deal and the "terms and conditions". Examples of "meat"
- Have
- Hold
- Love
- Cherish
The terms and conditions:
- For better
- For worse
- In Sickness
- In Health
- For richer
- For poorer
- Till death do us part
For most of us, the "meat" of the contract has been violated daily...For many of us, this has gone on for years on end. Unfortunately, the way our society works, the "meat" is valued less highly than the terms and conditions. "Cheating" violates the terms and conditions.
So from my perspective, the other party to the contract has already broken it. So there is nothing wrong per-se with outsourcing. Now, in my case, I decided not to so that I can walk out with my head high. I have only been with one woman in my life, and it's my wife. According to the state of Texas, I will be able to dissolve that marriage in 55 more days. When that happens, I will be free and clear to live my life with my honor intact.
Now, if I weren't getting divorced? Of if it had been much longer? I don't know how long I could have been faithful to my ideals (hence the divorce). I'm also a pretty shitty liar so I KNOW I would have been caught, and the cheater is usually viewed as the "bad guy".
So for most of us, our partner has already broken the contract. Is it cheating to also break the contract? That's in the eye of the beholder.
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 11:08:52 GMT -5
I'm sure this has been asked before but what exactly what behavior do you all think crosses the line into cheating? Is it the physical act of sex with another person or more when you become emotionally distant to your refusing spouse? The reason I ask this is it's been a long 14 years since I've had sex with anyone and I've been lusting over another man for over a year now. There has been no physical contact between us, not that I wouldn't welcome it with open arms. Now I wonder if I've been emotionally cheating on my H all along? I was going to ask you to flip the script and tell me how you would feel if your H was emotionally vested in another women as you are with this other man, but I won't because you are not the refusing spouse your H is. He isn't in your shoes and neither you in his so it wouldn't be fair of me to ask the question. But I have always come back to this particular circumstance, would I be ok with my spouse doing this? If the answer is yes, then I wouldn't consider it "cheating" but if I say no, then it's more like a double standard.....do as I say not as I do and still not "cheating". Cheating has different meanings and perceptions for everyone. What I think is cheating, you may not think is. For a teenager, looking at another person probably constitutes as cheating. Holding hands, hugs, flirting, kisses on the cheek....the list can go on and on. I guess what I would concentrate on is trying to figure out how the H feels about your "emotional" connection with this other man and go from there. That will answer your question for your situation. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 11:40:21 GMT -5
I think the refusing spouse should expect their spouse to cheat.
If they are refusing your basic need for sex, then you have a right to get it somewhere else, if you choose.
There is research that sex keeps you healthy. You live longer and you also look younger. So I see sex as a necessity in my life. If I was ever to outsource it would not just be for a one night stand but something with depth and friendship.
I'm not planning on outsourcing as this current time because it would cloudy the water. I see nothing wrong with outsourcing, especially in a SM.
In a SM, we're are denied touch and intimacy. It's a form of emotional abuse and is clearly not healthy. Some people may be stuck in a SM due to circumstances. They might as well make the best of it.
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Post by Dan on May 2, 2017 12:22:57 GMT -5
I think the attempted wordsmithing ("cheating" is "gaining an advantage" or "it isn't cheating if you tell them") are not very beneficial in the general discussion of "what is cheating", nor to Carol 's OP. snowman12345 's comment that "cheating" is "gaining an advantage" doesn't apply; that is about a game with rules. It is just a different sense of the word; don't try to stretch it to marital infidelity. As for unmatched 's suggestion that "If you tell them first, then you aren't (cheating)." -- well, I saw that posted by someone on EP too, and I didn't agree with it then either. That is just not the way the world uses the term. Making my case: a woman wouldn't say of her philandering husband: "He told me he's been and plans to continue sleeping with his secretary! But now that he told me about it, it doesn't count as cheating -- I'm so glad he's not cheating on me anymore." I also don't think that context nullifies cheating: if a husband is sleeping around (being unfaithful), and a jilted wife then starts to as well, it is still "cheating" (marital infidelity) even if she felt it was "fair". If a husband is refusing marital sex (another way of being unfaithful), and the refused wife then starts to outsource.... it is still "cheating" (marital infidelity) even if it is "justifiable". This is the same sense that "if someone steals from me, is it OK for me to steal from them?". BOTH are still stealing, IMO, though there is an valid discussion as to whether or not the latter action is justified. Furthermore, I've known women who have the opinion that a one-time physical fling is worse than an emotional affair (no sex, just spoken intimacy), and others who think the emotional affair is worse. Just one more reason I hold that cheating is, for better or worse, in the eye of the beholder. --- And none of those thoughts -- I suspect -- help Carol much with her specific case that is bordering on an emotional affair. IMO, Carol 's questions seem to be: - Is what I'm describing an "emotional affair"? - Is what I'm describing a "cheating"? - Is what I'm describing justified? Those overlap, but are not entirely the same question. Alas... only Carol (looking at her heart and knowing the predilections of her husband) can determine that. I hope this thread is helping her figure it out. |
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Post by Dan on May 2, 2017 12:35:04 GMT -5
I remembered this graphic titled "The Varieties of Intimate Relationship". It categorizes all intimate relationships in to three broad categories: - Celibacy (pink) - Monogamy (green) - Non-monogamy (grey) Note there are a wide variety of non-monogamous relationships: - Polygamy (one man, multiple wives) - Polyandry (one woman, multiple husbands) - Polyamory (multiple spousal-like relationships in a cluster) - Swinging - Open marriage None of these non-monogamous relationships are called "cheating"; not in the graphic, not in general usage. However, one form of non-monogamy is fundamentally different: - Non-consensual non-monogamy (additional sexual partners without the consent of your first one) This is -- in this graphic -- labelled "Cheating". This is the very sense I was getting at in my post: the key element of "what makes cheating cheating" is the LACK OF APPROVAL of your spouse. They are "not consenting" if they 1) don't know about it, or 2) know about it and disapprove. Original link: s3.amazonaws.com/infobeautiful2/940_intimate_relationship.png |
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 12:53:35 GMT -5
I remembered this graphic titled "The Varieties of Intimate Relationship". It categorizes all intimate relationships in to three broad categories: - Celibacy (pink) - Monogamy (green) - Non-monogamy (grey) Note there are a wide variety of non-monogamous relationships: - Polygamy (one man, multiple wives) - Polyandry (one woman, multiple husbands) - Polyamory (multiple spousal-like relationships in a cluster) - Swinging - Open marriage None of these non-monogamous relationships are called "cheating"; not in the graphic, not in general usage. However, one form of non-monogamy is fundamentally different: - Non-consensual non-monogamy (additional sexual partners without the consent of your first one) This is -- in this graphic -- labelled "Cheating". This is the very sense I was getting at in my post: the key element of "what make cheating cheating" is the LACK OF APPROVAL of your spouse. They are "not consenting" if they 1) don't know about it, or 2) know about it and disapprove. Original link: s3.amazonaws.com/infobeautiful2/940_intimate_relationship.pngAnyone who takes time to actually go through and analyze this pic has way too much time on their hands and probably could've had sex in the time it would take to figure it all out.... Way to busy |
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Post by h on May 2, 2017 12:56:12 GMT -5
I remembered this graphic titled "The Varieties of Intimate Relationship". It categorizes all intimate relationships in to three broad categories: - Celibacy (pink) - Monogamy (green) - Non-monogamy (grey) Note there are a wide variety of non-monogamous relationships: - Polygamy (one man, multiple wives) - Polyandry (one woman, multiple husbands) - Polyamory (multiple spousal-like relationships in a cluster) - Swinging - Open marriage None of these non-monogamous relationships are called "cheating"; not in the graphic, not in general usage. However, one form of non-monogamy is fundamentally different: - Non-consensual non-monogamy (additional sexual partners without the consent of your first one) This is -- in this graphic -- labelled "Cheating". This is the very sense I was getting at in my post: the key element of "what make cheating cheating" is the LACK OF APPROVAL of your spouse. They are "not consenting" if they 1) don't know about it, or 2) know about it and disapprove. Original link: s3.amazonaws.com/infobeautiful2/940_intimate_relationship.pngAnyone who takes time to actually go through and analyze this pic has way too much time on their hands and probably could've had sex in the time it would take to figure it all out.... Way to busy Guess I'm one of those people... |
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Post by doneanddone on May 2, 2017 13:00:24 GMT -5
Anyone who takes time to actually go through and analyze this pic has way too much time on their hands and probably could've had sex in the time it would take to figure it all out.... Way to busy Guess I'm one of those people... Just poking at ya.....lol |
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Post by ted on May 2, 2017 13:06:59 GMT -5
Interesting chart.
Wait, I was supposed to get sex on birthdays?!
Yeah, that describes it well.
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Post by snowman12345 on May 2, 2017 13:14:27 GMT -5
I think the attempted wordsmithing ("cheating" is "gaining an advantage" or "it isn't cheating if you tell them") are not very beneficial in the general discussion of "what is cheating", nor to Carol 's OP. snowman12345 's comment that "cheating" is "gaining an advantage" doesn't apply; that is about a game with rules. It is just a different sense of the word; don't try to stretch it to marital infidelity. As for unmatched 's suggestion that "If you tell them first, then you aren't (cheating)." -- well, I saw that posted by someone on EP too, and I didn't agree with it then either. That is just not the way the world uses the term. Making my case: a woman wouldn't say of her philandering husband: "He told me he's been and plans to continue sleeping with his secretary! But now that he told me about it, it doesn't count as cheating -- I'm so glad he's not cheating on me anymore." I also don't think that context nullifies cheating: if a husband is sleeping around (being unfaithful), and a jilted wife then starts to as well, it is still "cheating" (marital infidelity) even if she felt it was "fair". If a husband is refusing marital sex (another way of being unfaithful), and the refused wife then starts to outsource.... it is still "cheating" (marital infidelity) even if it is "justifiable". This is the same sense that "if someone steals from me, is it OK for me to steal from them?". BOTH are still stealing, IMO, though there is an valid discussion as to whether or not the latter action is justified. Furthermore, I've known women who have the opinion that a one-time physical fling is worse than an emotional affair (no sex, just spoken intimacy), and others who think the emotional affair is worse. Just one more reason I hold that cheating is, for better or worse, in the eye of the beholder. --- And none of those thoughts -- I suspect -- help Carol much with her specific case that is bordering on an emotional affair. IMO, Carol 's questions seem to be: - Is what I'm describing an "emotional affair"? - Is what I'm describing a "cheating"? - Is what I'm describing justified? Those overlap, but are not entirely the same question. Alas... only Carol (looking at her heart and knowing the predilections of her husband) can determine that. I hope this thread is helping her figure it out. So, @dan, my opinion of the definition of the word is meaningless? Why would you infer such a thing? Defining the word we are discussing IS BENEFICIAL to the discussion - otherwise all we end up discussing is what YOUR moral opinion is - which means exactly JACK to me. Don't you dare look down your nose at the choices people make - at least some have taken some sort of action about their SM shithole.
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Post by Dan on May 2, 2017 13:37:31 GMT -5
I think the attempted wordsmithing ("cheating" is "gaining an advantage" or "it isn't cheating if you tell them") are not very beneficial in the general discussion of "what is cheating", nor to Carol 's OP. So, @dan, my opinion of the definition of the word is meaningless? Why would you infer such a thing? Defining the word we are discussing IS BENEFICIAL to the discussion - otherwise all we end up discussing is what YOUR moral opinion is - which means exactly JACK to me. Don't you dare look down your nose at the choices people make - at least some have taken some sort of action about their SM shithole. : my apologies. Allow me to clarify. I definitely erred in my post by stating my view that your definition won't help Carol . That is pointless for me to say; Carol can speak for herself on this point. And I really was not trying to make any point about the ethics of "cheating", nor was I disparaging your ethical views. Here's the hypothetical discussion I envisioned in my head between Carol and her husband: I don't find that conversation very likely. I don't think that definition will sway Carol's husband. Not because I know him... but because I know lots of husbands and wives, and have a general sense of what folks consider "cheating". I just don't think "gain an unfair advantage" captures what "cheating" means when it comes to marital infidelity. But it works for you -- or for anyone else reading this thread -- really, I'm OK with that. |
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Post by bballgirl on May 2, 2017 13:54:25 GMT -5
I'm sure this has been asked before but what exactly what behavior do you all think crosses the line into cheating? Is it the physical act of sex with another person or more when you become emotionally distant to your refusing spouse? The reason I ask this is it's been a long 14 years since I've had sex with anyone and I've been lusting over another man for over a year now. There has been no physical contact between us, not that I wouldn't welcome it with open arms. Now I wonder if I've been emotionally cheating on my H all along? I've needed to give this some thought with how to respond. I was in an emotional affair a few years ago. I was celibate for at least 9 years at that point, extremely depressed, even thoughts of suicide crept in, my self esteem was zero, etc. A man started giving me attention just in a friendly way. He never outright flirted but he called me often on the phone, would joking me at sporting events where I work. I liked the attention. It grew more frequent and became a comparison tool for the interaction I had with my H. Long story short, nothing happened, we are great friends now, he calls me every morning before work but it's platonic. However I had real feelings for him but they were one sided and it was more of an attraction to the attention I needed because of the void in my marriage. So I understand what you are dealing with. Emotional affairs are tough. It's something that is tough to control. It is cheating in my book. In my heart I was unfaithful to my H. However my sanity needed to escape somewhere so I could have some happiness in some way even if it was a made up thing in my own head. It was a survival and coping mechanism but not a real thing. It was a symptom of a bigger problem. So here's this man giving me attention. I'm attracted to him. I have zero regrets about it though because it opened my eyes to see the neglect and abuse that i had in my marriage. Example: My bday - phone call from friend; text from H Those differences as well as EP showed me that my marriage was a joke. Eventually I cheated. I outsourced with a different man. My H was extremely jealous of the friend which was a great cover, he's spinning his wheels over a man that I'm not even banging. However the jealousy was justified because it was an emotional thing and that is cheating too, just a different way. Affairs aren't the problem though. There is a reason people have affairs, something is missing or dysfunctional in a marriage. There is a lack of trust, vulnerability, and communication. If I'm ever in another relationship I would want to be with a man that is not afraid to tell me their deepest, darkest fantasies or fears and for me to have that comfort with them. Example: If a man wanted to pee on me, I would want him to be comfortable to tell me that. It doesn't mean I'm going to do it but there's no judgement because you love each other. However if he wants me to pee on him that's a different story lol I know the pain of an emotional affair it's like unrequited love. It's tough and I don't reccomend it but sometimes it serves a purpose for a lesson. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 14:39:27 GMT -5
So non-consensual non-monogamy is cheating.
What is the unilateral imposition of celibacy called, then?
If refused spouses who seek comfort get called "cheaters," I think refusers deserve a nasty name too.
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Post by orangepeel on May 2, 2017 16:27:34 GMT -5
My wife, I'm sure, thinks I'm cheating. I think she wants to think I'm cheating to get her off the hook.
Depressingly, I'm not cheating.
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Post by wewbwb on May 2, 2017 16:34:50 GMT -5
Why do the refusers get to decide what's "cheating"? I don't think it's "refusers" I think it's "spouses" who get to choose. Because this isn't an issue restricted to SM. This is an issue in all marriages. I was once told "If you wouldn't tell your partner, It's cheating." I'm not sure I agree with that but it's as good a definition as I heard. |
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