|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Mar 23, 2017 15:54:03 GMT -5
What if something - not sure what - put you off of them? Could you eat them again? Find the love for eating olives again? While pregnant with my second, I ate at a particular deli almost every day. Their salad bar was amazing. Since I had the baby almost 9 years ago, I just haven't had the hankering for it. Could I go back and enjoy the salad bar? Sure! There are just so many choices and I wore it out long ago. I ask because there is a difference between the bait-and-switch with those that may have never enjoyed sex with their partners and those that once did. I have considered what beachguy has said about men losing it and never getting that back for their partner, and I wonder if it's just that my brain can go back to things I once liked and don't necessarily love to do anymore and so I don't understand? Olives have an objective taste. If you liked it once, you can like it again. But, how a person feels about another person - I suspect that's a different thing. We talk on here with an assumption of "restoring attraction" as if attraction is the default state of relating to that person. Like, you always were attracted to them, like everyone is always attracted to them. I'm trying out an idea that attraction isn't a default state and that the concept of restoration isn't apt with attraction. Once antipathy has set in, whether due to real reasons or a misunderstanding -- clearing up or fixing those reasons restores a person to zero, and not to a state of attraction. |
|
|
|
Post by JMX on Mar 23, 2017 18:14:49 GMT -5
What if something - not sure what - put you off of them? Could you eat them again? Find the love for eating olives again? While pregnant with my second, I ate at a particular deli almost every day. Their salad bar was amazing. Since I had the baby almost 9 years ago, I just haven't had the hankering for it. Could I go back and enjoy the salad bar? Sure! There are just so many choices and I wore it out long ago. I ask because there is a difference between the bait-and-switch with those that may have never enjoyed sex with their partners and those that once did. I have considered what beachguy has said about men losing it and never getting that back for their partner, and I wonder if it's just that my brain can go back to things I once liked and don't necessarily love to do anymore and so I don't understand? Olives have an objective taste. If you liked it once, you can like it again. But, how a person feels about another person - I suspect that's a different thing. We talk on here with an assumption of "restoring attraction" as if attraction is the default state of relating to that person. Like, you always were attracted to them, like everyone is always attracted to them. I'm trying out an idea that attraction isn't a default state and that the concept of restoration isn't apt with attraction. Once antipathy has set in, whether due to real reasons or a misunderstanding -- clearing up or fixing those reasons restores a person to zero, and not to a state of attraction. Argh. I had an entire post and response to this but I think it requires more thought. I like that you make me think, but it makes my brain hurt. Reading your stuff is akin to deciphering a poem sometimes 😉. I am interested in reading more about this idea you are trying on so I can better understand it. In the meantime, I will think of a better response, preferably one not involving a comparison to food! |
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on Mar 23, 2017 19:30:40 GMT -5
JMX and Apocrypha I suspect you are probably both right. I know why chasing is not very fashionable (or productive!), but my guess is if somebody once wanted you and no longer does there is probably a reason for it. In fact probably a whole bunch of different reasons, all piled up together and wrapped around each other. Maybe it is to do with their self-image, or maybe they are giving up on really living, or maybe you aren't the same person you used to be (physically or character-wise), or maybe there are a whole lot of knotted fears and resentments and disappointments, or maybe they just aren't willing to be that open or vulnerable any more. And probably a combination of lots of these things. So I think in theory you should be able to go back to something you once enjoyed. But in practice it probably takes a level of introspection and willingness to be open and change that most people simply don't come close to. And even if you do get back there, there are all those years worth of history just waiting to drag you back down again. So looking at Apocrypha's theory, maybe even if you can clear away all the crap that caused your SM in the first place, you still get back to a point where you have to actually want to invest yourself in something that already hurt you once. (Even if we as refused don't see it that way...) I am sure that is doable, but you probably don't have the same natural instinct to go there that you once did. They say that recovering from an affair is a very long process that requires a huge amount of willingness on both sides, and the relationship will never be the same as it was. Recovering from a long term SM could be even harder.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 20:21:59 GMT -5
I love Brussel sprouts on special occasions, they are a must with Christmas dinner and I can't imagine the day without them. So to change the conversation slightly what if you spouse went all out sexually, on special occasions and rocked your world, birthdays, Christmas, Anniversaries, StV day etc would that be enough?
|
|
|
|
Post by lyn on Mar 23, 2017 21:49:44 GMT -5
in theory you should be able to go back to something you once enjoyed. But in practice it probably takes a level of introspection and willingness to be open and change that most people simply don't come close to. And even if you do get back there, there are all those years worth of history just waiting to drag you back down again. So looking at Apocrypha's theory, maybe even if you can clear away all the crap that caused your SM in the first place, you still get back to a point where you have to actually want to invest yourself in something that already hurt you once. (Even if we as refused don't see it that way...) I am sure that is doable, but you probably don't have the same natural instinct to go there that you once did. They say that recovering from an affair is a very long process that requires a huge amount of willingness on both sides, and the relationship will never be the same as it was. Recovering from a long term SM could be even harder. If, when getting to the counter--refusing stage that so many of us get to, it were as simple as a reset to base zero, I suspect some of our relationships just might turn around. This is such a struggle. Getting to the point where it matters not what they do now, but what they didn't do for all of those "lost years". The past just abolishes anything done in the present - at least for me personally. Being a practical person, this just goes against my grain, however, I cannot erase or ignore the years of emotional scarring brought on by the very person that now wants to make everything "right". No amount of therapy or scented candles can erase what has already been done. Life would be so much easier if it could, but, for me anyway, it just can't. Completely sucks, but, it is what it is. |
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Mar 23, 2017 22:40:25 GMT -5
in theory you should be able to go back to something you once enjoyed. But in practice it probably takes a level of introspection and willingness to be open and change that most people simply don't come close to. And even if you do get back there, there are all those years worth of history just waiting to drag you back down again. So looking at Apocrypha's theory, maybe even if you can clear away all the crap that caused your SM in the first place, you still get back to a point where you have to actually want to invest yourself in something that already hurt you once. (Even if we as refused don't see it that way...) I am sure that is doable, but you probably don't have the same natural instinct to go there that you once did. They say that recovering from an affair is a very long process that requires a huge amount of willingness on both sides, and the relationship will never be the same as it was. Recovering from a long term SM could be even harder. If, when getting to the counter--refusing stage that so many of us get to, it were as simple as a reset to base zero, I suspect some of our relationships just might turn around. This is such a struggle. Getting to the point where it matters not what they do now, but what they didn't do for all of those "lost years". The past just abolishes anything done in the present - at least for me personally. Being a practical person, this just goes against my grain, however, I cannot erase or ignore the years of emotional scarring brought on by the very person that now wants to make everything "right". No amount of therapy or scented candles can erase what has already been done. Life would be so much easier if it could, but, for me anyway, it just can't. Completely sucks, but, it is what it is. It's the neglect of the past two decades that I could not get past. The fact that when he was in his 30's and 40's and was able to fuck me but didn't. I forgave the neglect but I had to move on. There are consequences for the choices one makes, he lost his wife. |
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Mar 23, 2017 22:43:43 GMT -5
I love Brussel sprouts on special occasions, they are a must with Christmas dinner and I can't imagine the day without them. So to change the conversation slightly what if you spouse went all out sexually, on special occasions and rocked your world, birthdays, Christmas, Anniversaries, StV day etc would that be enough? I can come up with 2 holidays and celebrations a month. 2x12=24. Look at that not sexless! The reality is sex once a year is not acceptable for some and Brussel sprouts and olives never rejectedand refused me. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Mar 23, 2017 22:51:11 GMT -5
Happy sex day! Every day! 365 days a year!
What do you mean by "sex day?"
Well, we're married. We took a pledge, an oath, that you would be the only person on the planet that I would have sex with. That's worth celebrating every day!!
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Mar 23, 2017 22:57:59 GMT -5
If, when getting to the counter--refusing stage that so many of us get to, it were as simple as a reset to base zero, I suspect some of our relationships just might turn around. This is such a struggle. Getting to the point where it matters not what they do now, but what they didn't do for all of those "lost years". The past just abolishes anything done in the present - at least for me personally. Being a practical person, this just goes against my grain, however, I cannot erase or ignore the years of emotional scarring brought on by the very person that now wants to make everything "right". No amount of therapy or scented candles can erase what has already been done. Life would be so much easier if it could, but, for me anyway, it just can't. Completely sucks, but, it is what it is. Fool me once for much of my life, shame on you! Fool me twice for the rest of my life, shame on me! |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Mar 24, 2017 8:36:27 GMT -5
JMX and Apocrypha I suspect you are probably both right. I know why chasing is not very fashionable (or productive!), but my guess is if somebody once wanted you and no longer does there is probably a reason for it. Maybe. But have you ever been mad at a person after having had a dream? Now, imagine waking up after having that dream for, I don't know, maybe 5-7 years. Imagine liking or loving someone enough to agree to marry them, but then finding your heart wasn't in it enough to see it through. Imagine the level of torture that would entail. Even if you wipe the reasons clean, there is still the feeling. These feelings don't often make "sense". I can attest to that as a man who dates. Chemistry is there with people it likely shouldn't be, and lacks with people for whom I wish I felt it. In the dating world, it's really hard to quantify "reasons" for wanting one person and not the next, beyond the obvious attributes a person possesses. It doesn't have to be actual harm. Case in point, which came up in therapy, Mrs Apocrypha brought up as a tipping point - when our three year old son (at the time) mouthed off to her. It triggered a whole toxic avalanche from when she was a kid watching her father abuse her ineffectual mother, and she retaliated against ME, internalizing it with passive aggressive hate, for years. Now, I did not teach the kid that - he's a good kid, and rather, I taught him NOT to talk that way to anyone. He was just being a kid, and he didn't pick it up from me. She recognized that in therapy eventually - but even so - it didn't matter in terms of how she had felt about me - for years. She understood intellectually, that she was wrong and had been wrong all this time. But it didn't matter a bit in terms of how she felt. Sure, she was no longer angry with me - but it didn't bring her back to desiring me. I still wore the face of her tyrannical father - her tormentor. |
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Mar 24, 2017 8:48:01 GMT -5
If, when getting to the counter--refusing stage that so many of us get to, it were as simple as a reset to base zero, I suspect some of our relationships just might turn around. Moving from antipathy to "nothing" isn't really what I would call turning around. And if it just automatically moves from nothing to something, then we are just talking about the original assumption, which is that antipathy gets restored back to a default state of attraction. I don't think that's the way this really works. What nothing looks like, is your attractive friend who you play boardgames with but don't want to sleep with. Or maybe your work-husband who fits really well with you on a team, but again - not so much with the banging. Or the attractive enough person you dated three times and decided that you were so much on the fence about sleeping with, you became aware that your feelings were not romantic feelings. In the single world, those are very common outcomes - perfectly normal. Why should attraction work differently in a marriage situation simply because of a socially-constructed sense of obligation or convenience such as desiring the person who you happen to be married to? All very true. But to take it even farther - I'm suggesting that even if all those years of emotional scars could be made right - could be proven that the person is totally invested, it still brings us back to zero - the friend zone - which is progress from antipathy, but isn't desire. And what the friend zone looks like in the dating world, is that a complete stranger has a better crack at banging (or invoking desire, or even mere curiosity) than does a friend who you work well with but don't desire. |
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Mar 24, 2017 17:12:57 GMT -5
I love Brussel sprouts on special occasions, they are a must with Christmas dinner and I can't imagine the day without them. So to change the conversation slightly what if you spouse went all out sexually, on special occasions and rocked your world, birthdays, Christmas, Anniversaries, StV day etc would that be enough? I can come up with 2 holidays and celebrations a month. 2x12=24. Look at that not sexless! The reality is sex once a year is not acceptable for some and Brussel sprouts and olives never rejectedand refused me. Are we talking 24 quickies or starfish sex OR 24 times of our partner taking wanting to have sex and bring fully engaged? |
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Mar 24, 2017 17:26:25 GMT -5
I can come up with 2 holidays and celebrations a month. 2x12=24. Look at that not sexless! The reality is sex once a year is not acceptable for some and Brussel sprouts and olives never rejectedand refused me. Are we talking 24 quickies or starfish sex OR 24 times of our partner taking wanting to have sex and bring fully engaged? I'm talking about enthusiastic, rocked your world, multiple rounds. Here's my schedule: January - New Years Day, MLK Feb - Valentines Day, Presidents Day March-Steak and a Blowjob Day (which I just learned about), St Patrick's Day April- April Fool's Day, Easter, Opening Day Baseball (that's 3) May- Memorial Day, Pool Season starts June- Flag Day, Start of Summer July- Independence Day, My Bday August- Kids Back to School, Hottest Day of the year so far Sept- Labor Day, Kids Back to School up North, Start Fall Oct- Columbus Day, Halloween (Sex in a Costume) November- Veterans Day, Thanksgiving December- Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, NYE Personally this would not be quite enough for me but it would have prevented a divorce, I think. |
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Mar 24, 2017 18:05:02 GMT -5
Are we talking 24 quickies or starfish sex OR 24 times of our partner taking wanting to have sex and bring fully engaged? I'm talking about enthusiastic, rocked your world, multiple rounds. Here's my schedule: January - New Years Day, MLK Feb - Valentines Day, Presidents Day March-Steak and a Blowjob Day (which I just learned about), St Patrick's Day April- April Fool's Day, Easter, Opening Day Baseball (that's 3) May- Memorial Day, Pool Season starts June- Flag Day, Start of Summer July- Independence Day, My Bday August- Kids Back to School, Hottest Day of the year so far Sept- Labor Day, Kids Back to School up North, Start Fall Oct- Columbus Day, Halloween (Sex in a Costume) November- Veterans Day, Thanksgiving December- Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, NYE Personally this would not be quite enough for me but it would have prevented a divorce, I think. Agreed, it would be enough to passify me. You also didn't list Cunnilingus and cake on April 14. Can we throw in oral both giving and receiving a few more times. |
|
|
|
Post by bballgirl on Mar 24, 2017 18:17:34 GMT -5
I'm talking about enthusiastic, rocked your world, multiple rounds. Here's my schedule: January - New Years Day, MLK Feb - Valentines Day, Presidents Day March-Steak and a Blowjob Day (which I just learned about), St Patrick's Day April- April Fool's Day, Easter, Opening Day Baseball (that's 3) May- Memorial Day, Pool Season starts June- Flag Day, Start of Summer July- Independence Day, My Bday August- Kids Back to School, Hottest Day of the year so far Sept- Labor Day, Kids Back to School up North, Start Fall Oct- Columbus Day, Halloween (Sex in a Costume) November- Veterans Day, Thanksgiving December- Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, NYE Personally this would not be quite enough for me but it would have prevented a divorce, I think. Agreed, it would be enough to passify me. You also didn't list Cunnilingus and cake on April 14. Can we throw in oral both giving and receiving a few more times. Ha! I googled it, learn something new everyday but according to Urban Dictionary it's March 21st. I think April 14th is a better date and I think the 14th of every month should be some sort of sinfully sexual scenario. And yes when it comes to oral, giving and receiving is to be expected. |
|
