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Post by ballofconfusion on Feb 25, 2017 18:50:43 GMT -5
Hi All,
I have been reading for a few weeks here and working up the courage to post. Married 24 years. Some small bit of intimacy prior to marriage, but we were in the process of converting to Catholicism and so my soon to be husband wanted to "stop" intimacy and wait until after the wedding. Things were not great, at least sexually, prior to the wedding and his decision to stop all intimacy until we were married, but I wrote it off as a moral qualm. I truly believed that once we were married, that issue would disappear and we would embark on a wonderful journey together. I could not have been more wrong. He refused all intimacy on our honeymoon and made me feel as though I was ruining a perfect trip by arguing about sex. I was so hurt and confused and thought there was something wrong with me. I spent countless years trying not to pressure him, trying to look good, trying to get him to desire me as a husband should. Nothing worked. We were intimate about twice a month (I always initiated) for a couple of years and that was workable for me, if not ideal. Unfortunately, as the years passed, that dwindled to monthly, then every few months, and then ED issues surfaced about ten years into the marriage, which made an awkward and difficult situation even worse. We did have four children (Catholic - no birth control - conceived on the first try each time) and two of them are now in college. We have not been intimate since 2010 and have not shared a bed in three years. In 2012 we took a 20th anniversary cruise and he became angry at my advances one evening. A sunset evening with no children in the mediterranean didn't seem like a good time for intimacy and, again, he said I was spoiling a beautiful time. It was very hurtful and I think it was then that I knew it wasn't me, but was him, and that I could not continue living in this manner. It was so depressing, isolating and embarrassing that I never confided in anyone. In 2011, he said he was having flashbacks about sexual abuse as a child from his single mother. I was hopeful that at least this was an explanation for what had been going on in our marriage and figured that with therapy things would improve and we would stand a chance of fixing this situation. He stopped therapy after a couple of months because it was too stressful. I found another therapist and he also stopped seeing him after a couple of months. He moved to the guest room permanently in 2014 and shortly after that, I finally had an affair (outsourced as you say here). This went on for a couple of years and until it was discovered by him. Since the discovery, we have been in individual counseling as well as couples counseling. He has said that he does not think he will ever get to where I "want/need" him to be in this area. He will not agree to an open marriage (and the marriage is good insofar as we are incredible friends). This is very hard because none of this is his fault - what happened to him as a child was horrific. He wants me to decide whether to stay in the marriage or not -and he wants me to decide very soon. How can I make such a decision when I have no idea if he will ever want a normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship? How can I leave him when he is not simply a "refuser?" I have been a stay at home mom most of these years (some part time work). I would be leaving a good man, financial security and hurting my kids all to chase my own happiness - which may be elusive at best. My AP is married and may or may not ever leave his own sexless marriage (we have known each other since we were kids) when his own nest is empty. I would like to stay in my marriage until my kids leave home and still see AP. That is not an option for me. I am, literally, a ball of confusion. What is the right thing to do for my kids, my husband and for me? How do you weigh these things when the "refuser" wants to be sexual but cannot do so due to past trauma? Do you leave and risk being alone (versus alone in the marriage). I am sad. It seems all options lead to so much pain and unhappiness. Thank you if you have read this far. I feel truly awful for being so selfish. I welcome any and all advice.
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Post by oside77 on Feb 25, 2017 19:17:14 GMT -5
Well, I certainly believe your situation counts. I think most people here would agree with that.
I can understand how you feel because my wife was also abused and that has led to most of her libido issues. It makes so you can understand why, but doesn't make your own needs and desires just disappear.
It is sad that he told you that you have to decide soon. I personally would suggest you stay for as long as you can. I would not judge if you continued with your AP, in fact, I would encourage you to continue.
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Post by baza on Feb 25, 2017 19:49:29 GMT -5
"How can I make such a decision when I have no idea if he will ever want a normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship?" - you say Sister ballofconfusion . Actually, you DO know. The evidence of several decades shows you quite clearly that he will never "want a normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship?" That of course does NOT mean that you should leave. All it is is accepting that fact that your deal is an ILIASM shithole.. What you do after that is entirely your choice. Stay. Outsource covertly. Leave. They are all perfectly valid choices. But obviously, you need to fully research all the options in order to make a fully informed choice. You have been running a real time experiment on the staying option, so you don't need to research that one any further. You know full well where that is going. So, see a lawyer in your jurisdiction and establish how a divorce would shake out for you. From that info, start putting an exit strategy in place, and knock it in to do-able shape. Shore up your support network to help you through such an event. Research everything you can find to help the kids transition through such an event. Then with that in your pocket, you'll be able to make a fully informed choice about your way forward. What your spouse may do is a matter over which you have no control. None. He might start addressing his issues, he might not. His record so far is rather uninspiring.That's his responsibility, not yours. If he did genuinely start to address his issues, he might succeed, or he might not. Your choice can't be contingent upon him doing *anything*. Your choice has to be in *YOUR* longer term best interests. Now, the sidebar - your outsourcing partner. He, also, is an issue over which you have no control. He might see a future with you, he might not (but bear in mind that blokes - generally - are about 5 times less likely to leave their marriages than chicks, so it would be most unwise to assume too much about his intentions) If you are going to go on with your current choice - to stay - it has to be because you see that as being in your longer term best interests. If you are going to choose to leave, that, again, has to be because you see that as being in your longer term best interests. This - quite rightly - is all about *YOU*. It doesn't really have much to do with your spouse, or your outsourcing partner. They are really sidebars to all this. Your choice, your consequence. Bloody intimidating isn't it ? Whatever you choose, do your best to make it a FULLY INFORMED choice. |
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Post by shamwow on Feb 25, 2017 19:56:10 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear of your situation. Sadly, you do belong here and you will find a group who understands where you are coming from.
If I may offer my own observations. If your husband has suffered from past sexual abuse, this is certainly not his fault. However it is also not your fault.
Your husband has demanded you do penance for someone else's sins. The trauma he endured as a child does not entitle him to subject you to decades of trauma as well.
He married you knowing of his issues. From what it sounds like, he did not tell you of this before marrying you. If he had told you of this and the unlikeliness of a normal sexual marriage, you may not have gone through with it.
In addition, he will not allow you an "open" marriage. It seems as though you have done everything you can within the confines of your marriage. You have gone above and beyond. Whatever you decide is your decision, but in your shoes, I would feel no guilt.
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Post by obobfla on Feb 25, 2017 20:05:25 GMT -5
Hi All, I have been reading for a few weeks here and working up the courage to post. Married 24 years. Some small bit of intimacy prior to marriage, but we were in the process of converting to Catholicism and so my soon to be husband wanted to "stop" intimacy and wait until after the wedding. Things were not great, at least sexually, prior to the wedding and his decision to stop all intimacy until we were married, but I wrote it off as a moral qualm. I truly believed that once we were married, that issue would disappear and we would embark on a wonderful journey together. I could not have been more wrong. He refused all intimacy on our honeymoon and made me feel as though I was ruining a perfect trip by arguing about sex. I was so hurt and confused and thought there was something wrong with me. I spent countless years trying not to pressure him, trying to look good, trying to get him to desire me as a husband should. Nothing worked. We were intimate about twice a month (I always initiated) for a couple of years and that was workable for me, if not ideal. Unfortunately, as the years passed, that dwindled to monthly, then every few months, and then ED issues surfaced about ten years into the marriage, which made an awkward and difficult situation even worse. We did have four children (Catholic - no birth control - conceived on the first try each time) and two of them are now in college. We have not been intimate since 2010 and have not shared a bed in three years. In 2012 we took a 20th anniversary cruise and he became angry at my advances one evening. A sunset evening with no children in the mediterranean didn't seem like a good time for intimacy and, again, he said I was spoiling a beautiful time. It was very hurtful and I think it was then that I knew it wasn't me, but was him, and that I could not continue living in this manner. It was so depressing, isolating and embarrassing that I never confided in anyone. In 2011, he said he was having flashbacks about sexual abuse as a child from his single mother. I was hopeful that at least this was an explanation for what had been going on in our marriage and figured that with therapy things would improve and we would stand a chance of fixing this situation. He stopped therapy after a couple of months because it was too stressful. I found another therapist and he also stopped seeing him after a couple of months. He moved to the guest room permanently in 2014 and shortly after that, I finally had an affair (outsourced as you say here). This went on for a couple of years and until it was discovered by him. Since the discovery, we have been in individual counseling as well as couples counseling. He has said that he does not think he will ever get to where I "want/need" him to be in this area. He will not agree to an open marriage (and the marriage is good insofar as we are incredible friends). This is very hard because none of this is his fault - what happened to him as a child was horrific. He wants me to decide whether to stay in the marriage or not -and he wants me to decide very soon. How can I make such a decision when I have no idea if he will ever want a normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship? How can I leave him when he is not simply a "refuser?" I have been a stay at home mom most of these years (some part time work). I would be leaving a good man, financial security and hurting my kids all to chase my own happiness - which may be elusive at best. My AP is married and may or may not ever leave his own sexless marriage (we have known each other since we were kids) when his own nest is empty. I would like to stay in my marriage until my kids leave home and still see AP. That is not an option for me. I am, literally, a ball of confusion. What is the right thing to do for my kids, my husband and for me? How do you weigh these things when the "refuser" wants to be sexual but cannot do so due to past trauma? Do you leave and risk being alone (versus alone in the marriage). I am sad. It seems all options lead to so much pain and unhappiness. Thank you if you have read this far. I feel truly awful for being so selfish. I welcome any and all advice. Actually, I have heard stories here very similar to yours on this forum, including a member turned down by her husband on a cruise. While you may not like the fact that you qualify to join this club, rest assured that you are not alone. I feel bad that your husband has had such awful experiences, but they are his to solve, not yours. I have an ill wife that I can't cure. I'm stuck in my marriage because my wife is too ill to survive on her own. Therefore, I outsource when I can, which is not often enough. He admits that he doesn't think he will ever be what you want. So here are my questions - do you want to be one, three, or five years from now? Do you really see yourself with your husband? Is there any future with your AP? Is there anything that you would really want to do? Your kids will be fine. They would probably prefer that you and your husband are happy as opposed to being together. Best of luck to you and welcome to the club no one wants to join. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 25, 2017 20:11:12 GMT -5
Baza gives the best advice!!
You mentioned the four kids, are they all teens, and older? (my 6 are) You could very easily be doing them more damage by staying married.
The two of you are giving a terrible example of what a loving, intimate, working marriage should be. They see it, and they know it.
Maybe they will grow up telling themselves "I will never be like that, I will not make that mistake", and perhaps they won't. Or they will tell themselves, "I won't be like that, and that won't happen to me", but it is instilled in their very being.?
These are still formodable years, and you could be doing them a great service by giving the whole family, a fresh new start. It's more than just personal. It involves the whole family, with ripple affects. Your husband sounds like the last to want to realize that, in his manipulative controlling mind.
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Post by snowman12345 on Feb 25, 2017 20:17:40 GMT -5
Welcome to the club no one wants to belong too. You seem to have chased why your H refuses you down to an answer. I can say from my own experience that knowing why does not really help in deciding what to do. He has told you he will never be the husband you need him to be. Do you believe him? His behavior over the last 24 years should be a pretty good indicator of future behavior on his part.
You sound like you would be just has happy to get it on the side and stay. Again I can tell you from my own experience that that can work. However, you stated that can't work for some reason.
So the question comes down to what are you going to do about it? Hubby probably won't change and is drawing further away. You stated that you don't think any of this is his fault - I call BS. He ran away from therapy twice - he could have gotten help but chose not to - THAT is his fault. Nor can you be blamed for the affair, if he had truly been the "good man" he would have found away to make you happy - not his priority.
Here is my suggestion, take a small solo vacation - somewhere with some distractions, but also get some alone time with no expectations and think it through. Write down your thoughts and see how you feel when you know you have to go back to the empty bedroom at home.
If you have read any posts here on this forum you probably have an idea of what your choices are.
Good luck to you, I hope you find peace.
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dave
New Member
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Post by dave on Feb 25, 2017 22:10:47 GMT -5
hi ballofconfusion. oh your situation counts alright. its your life!!! i would like to know why you are making excuses for him. your words,--- he refused all intimacy on our honeymoon" and continues to do so. he is not simply a "refuser?"- well yes, yes he is. I would be leaving a good man, financial security and hurting my kids" - he's not a good man. i'm betting everyone here will agree. (then again, didn't run that by sunniewhatever.) hurting your kids? they want to see their mom happy, trust me. talk to them. you will be surprised at they they view life and happiness. financial security? that may very well be, but remember the song. you can't always get what you want, but you get what you need.
as for your AP, thats only one. theres many "good men" out there. chances of ending up with someone like your husband again are pretty slim. your older and much wiser now, and you know what you want and what you need at this point. i got a feeling you already know what needs to be done. maybe just reinforcement is whats needed. just maybe you aren't a ball of confusion. just know though, there are some real awesome people here! theres always a shoulder here for you and ears that listen and will never refuse to listen and help if possible!
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Post by Dan on Feb 25, 2017 22:56:27 GMT -5
Dear BOC... sorry you've gone through all that. Glad you are here and posting your story.
Here are a few random thoughts:
If you got involved with your AP with an understanding that "we're not going to ask each each other to leave their marriages", well, stick with that. I mean, if someday he leaves AND if you leave, then have a go at it. But don't count on it. But I guess I'm really saying "honor the arrangement that you started with with him."
More generally, my view is "don't leave your marriage FOR (to be with) someone else." The criteria should be "is my current marriage over. Really over. So over that I would leave it even if I didn't have someone else out there kinda waiting. Even if I might be alone the rest of my life." That is was you need to ask yourself: are you that ready?
I too have four kids, ages 16-25. They ALL still require a lot of parenting. If I left now, they'd make it, I suppose. But they would be worse off... and *I* would miss these last few years living with them under this roof. So I'm staying for a bit more.
You DO have an option that you haven't mentioned. You can still see your AP... even telling your husband that that is your choice. If he doesn't like it... HE can leave YOU! If he leaves you for that, your decision is made. If he *DOESN'T* leave you for that... sheesh, as a woman I might be even MORE insulted and leave him just for not seeming to care that much!
Yes, there is a financial downside to divorce. But those who have bit the bullet and did it -- and stick around here long enough to tell of it -- tend to say "it was worth it" and "I'd rather live like this than with twice the money but married and lonely."
Just a few random thoughts... take (or leave them) as you will.
And DO keep posting here. Best of luck to you...
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Post by GeekGoddess on Feb 25, 2017 23:13:55 GMT -5
You qualify.
You are not being selfish.
This is a perfect example of why why-chasing is fruitless. Even when you know WHY, it doesn't change reality.
See a lawyer. Find out what you can.
I would say run like hell!
But the choice, just as the consequences, belongs to you.
Good luck navigating the minefield we call SM.
And welcome.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Feb 26, 2017 2:02:39 GMT -5
What a heartrending situation. First of all you absolutely do qualify to be here and secondly he is *simply* a refuser. The reason doesn't matter in as far as knowing why,doesn't change anything. I do feel sad for the child that he was, however he deceived you, knowing that he was entering into a contract that he would never fulfil. Perhaps he convinced himself that the levels of intimacy that you had would be enough for you.
You say you are great friends. I find that incredible given your story. I would have thought that your frustration and resentment towards him would manifest itself in other ways in your relationship.
Re leaving...only you can weigh up that cost. Ask yourself if you will actually be any happier if you left anytime soon. Is it worth breaking up what may be a stable family environment for your kids? What do they know of your situation? How would you explain it? ( all these are rhetorical)
Your AP friend is in a similar situation. You have known him for years. This is your dilemma. It's understandable that you don't want to give that up, but I'm understanding that your husband is forcing that friendship to end? You say yourself that even if you leave, there are no guarantees that your friend will leave his marriage also.
My advice would be to do nothing in haste. You have been there a long time, a little longer is doable if not ideal. There are children to consider, who may not even be aware of any difficulties in the marriage.
When you weigh up your needs, emotional, physical, financial etc and put those in context with your entire circumstances, it may help somewhat.
Don't give up on the individual counselling. If you have no one else to talk to, then this is your release valve. Don't beat yourself up about being deceived by him initially. He did a good job. That is one thing they are good at, plus who, when they are starting out has even heard of such a situation as someone not wanting sex? You get married. You have sex and intimacy(they should go together) or so everyone of a normal disposition thinks.
Here you have a place where everyone understands every single frustration and quandry that you feel. Perhaps not any one person, but between all of us, we absolutely get it and we absolutely feel it. No one person's advice will be enough and ultimately any difficult decisions will be yours alone, but it makes a huge difference to have the support here while you make them. x
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Post by McRoomMate on Feb 26, 2017 3:00:51 GMT -5
Welcome ballofconfusion Yes, you definitely qualify I like Baza and GeekGoddess answers the best. What you may find is that the problem is not so much no sex - that is just a symptom the real problem is NO INTIMACY connecting physically, emotionally, and yes even spiritually with Your Love. I think that is the Holy Grail of the Human Experience - if Outsourcing can get you there perfect. In my case "outsourcing" was just a "coping mechanism" but helped a little for intimacy but not the real thing. It might work for you. I need to be careful because after over a decade of outsourcing I fell MADLY IN LOVE with the AP totally unintended but when it hits BOOM! My whole universe changed. |
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Post by tamara68 on Feb 26, 2017 5:06:41 GMT -5
You have found the right place for support! I agree with what all the other replies. In your marriage you seem to be the one initiating everything. Not just sex, you are the one who has found his therapists and you are the one who is trying to solve the problem. This is something that a lot of us here have in common with you. You can't manage a marriage on your own. He simply is not doing his share and after so many years it is not likely that he will change. He is now putting pressure on you to make a quick decision. Don't force yourself to make quick decisions. He has been passive all along and it would be a big surprise if he suddenly would take action. And if he did suddenly decided he wants to divorce you, that would make it easier for you not having to decide. But I don't think that is going to happen. You need to take as much time as you need. Your counselor must be able to help you with that. I strongly recommend you to read the book "emotional blackmail" by Susan Forward iliasm.org/thread/787/emotional-blackmail |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Feb 26, 2017 5:20:03 GMT -5
Hiya ballofconfusionWelcome. I'm so sorry you had to find us. This is a fantastic place though. A collection of global wisdom if you like  I have similar issues to you wrt feeling sorry for my partner about previous sexual abuse. But jeeeeesus. They took long enough to tell us. Mine did the same as yours with the counsellor. Started then said it was too much and stopped again. He makes various other excuses too. Mainly health related. My thinking now is that I've done all I can to help. If he won't help himself, it's a choice he has made. You can't fix other people. It's time to take care of you. Whichever path that takes. None of us is getting out of this alive.... live YOUR life while you still have it. It's not bloody easy. I'm a boss procrastinator! You will explore many options in your head and your heart until one day your path will be one clear. It's taking me a while. I hope you are a bit swifter!! Good luck. We're all here for you xxx |
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Post by DryCreek on Feb 26, 2017 12:31:22 GMT -5
ballofconfusion, the door is open. The tough decision is whether to walk through it. Rewinding 2-3 *decades*, your H withheld information that was critically material to your marriage. You were sold a defective product, and you tried to make the best of it despite not understanding what you were battling. Here's the harsh reality... your H has a 20+ year track record of showing you who he is. His behavior is not going to change. No amount of therapy will change that momentum. Picture a rowboat trying to change the course of a cruise ship. Do not gamble on improvements - the marriage you have today is the best it will be. You need to base your decisions on that. If you chose to leave, don't do it because the grass is greener elsewhere. Do it because you can't bear to stay. Because of your affair, you have a good perspective of where your relationship should be; if anything, that will make it harder to stay, but know that the odds are very low for your AP ending his marriage. (Ironically, your affair is probably helping him to cope with staying.)
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