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Post by worksforme2 on Feb 26, 2017 20:11:10 GMT -5
Oh your situation counts, it definitely counts.
You have gotten some pretty fair dissections' and directions above and I am in agreement with many. Particularly when it comes to stating what a rat you married. I have a couple comments and I apologize before hand because I am probably going to be a bit blunt, but I think you need some "tough love".
Your H deceived you from day 1. He knew he had issues and yet he allowed you to believe that following the marriage intimacy would assume that of a normal, loving, caring husband and wife. Clearly it has been anything but a normal relationship. Those here who have experienced a S/M have learned the hard way that if intimacy and/or sex is important to someone, they will do whatever it takes to address the problem. I say this because of the 2 attempts at therapy. Unless I am reading wrong. I get the feeling his heart wasn't in to really trying to face down the childhood demons. If sex is important to a man his approach is straight forward. If he needs meds he gets a prescription and takes it. If it's counseling or therapy he sets up the appointments and then he shows up and does the work. Your H isn't doing any of this. Thus your H clearly isn't of the mindset that sex with you is important. I don't see anything in your story that leads me to believe he is a "refuser that wants to be sexual but cannot do so because of past trauma". I think you can be assured he will never want a "normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship" with you. If he did it would have manifested itself long before now. Moving into the guest room is just one more way of him saying there will be very little if anything happening as far as sex or intimacy. About the only thing he hasn't done to communicate this is to hang a large banner across the living room. Reread the reply from DryCreek.
So he has given you a deadline to buckle under. Your doing so will increase the already considerable control he exerts over you now. I'm with tamara68, but I would go a bit farther, make him make the decision who stays in the marriage, I don't thing he's got the balls.
Clearly you place much more importance on his happiness and well being than you do your own. That a pretty common characteristic of the people here.
You posed some fundamental questions at the end. Most of us have asked ourselves those same or similar questions repeatedly. And we have learned the only one who can answer them is ourselves. While you are looking for those answers I would suggest you start doing as much and as many things as possible should your decision time come sooner than expected. You never know when your marriage could end through some outside influence(car wreck, heart attack, etc,) and you would be on your own. See an attorney to find out where you stand if things go south. Look into returning to school with the goal of being able to support your self. Talk with social services to see what levels of help are open to you. In short do the things a reasonable and prudent woman would do to assure her survival in the event life necessitates it.
Again my apologies if I came off a bit harsh, but when confronting this sort of issue, one cannot take a Pollyanna approach. Good luck...
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Post by leifericson on Feb 26, 2017 20:13:15 GMT -5
iliasm.org/user/662 You do belong here and have come to the right place. You will find many people with their own baggage and agendas and I would weigh carefully any advice you get. What I hear, is that you have been making excuses for him your whole marriage and continue to make excuses, i.e " How do you weigh these things when the "refuser" wants to be sexual but cannot do so due to past trauma? " Sounds like another excuse. He doesn't want to change, he likes it the way things are. He is the unreasonable one being mad you had an affair. If he isn't giving you sex than you have a human right to have and get sex elsewhere. Stay, have the financial and social status and find someone to be intimate with.
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Post by DryCreek on Feb 26, 2017 23:10:56 GMT -5
ballofconfusion, I have to say, the last two responses were pretty much "take the bull by the horns" and would be a strong "take charge" attitude. They make excellent points that you keep deferring to his interests when he's not done that for you (at least in this regard). One approach would be to do what you need to do, knowing what you know. If it suits you to stay married and fill the emotional gap elsewhere, then leave it in his court to come to grips or decide that's unacceptable and file the divorce. One could argue there's a well-established dynamic in your relationship, and that he warrants as much consideration as he's given you on the subject over the years. He, at least, has the benefit of an informed decision. Personally, I'm not a fan of straddling the fence. It's messy, among many other things. You're not all the way out, so you can never go "all in".
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Post by lwoetin on Feb 27, 2017 0:13:33 GMT -5
He has said that he does not think he will ever get to where I "want/need" him to be in this area. He will not agree to an open marriage (and the marriage is good insofar as we are incredible friends). This is very hard because none of this is his fault - what happened to him as a child was horrific. He wants me to decide whether to stay in the marriage or not -and he wants me to decide very soon.... What is the right thing to do for my kids, my husband and for me? How do you weigh these things when the "refuser" wants to be sexual but cannot do so due to past trauma? Do you leave and risk being alone (versus alone in the marriage). I am sad. It seems all options lead to so much pain and unhappiness. Thank you if you have read this far. I feel truly awful for being so selfish. I welcome any and all advice. I think you are undecided about leaving your marriage, so I won't encourage you. " He has said that he does not think he will ever get to where I "want/need" him to be in this area." It seems like he still is willing to try but wants you to compromise on your position. IMO, an open marriage is not going to solve your problem. Your choices are probably to leave him or threaten to leave him if he doesn't change. Those are the effective strategies I see work around here, depending on whether you want to leave or stay. The option that results in least pain and unhappiness is when both partners are willing to compromise. And he needs to realize a real threat of losing you to get that to happen. Good luck in whatever route you choose for you and loved ones. |
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Post by baza on Feb 27, 2017 0:55:48 GMT -5
Be careful with the "threaten to leave him" strategy Sister ballofconfusion , as it can backfire badly. If you threaten divorce, he calls your bluff, and you back down, then you shed your cred, and put yourself backwards by months. All you achieve is to educate him that you don't mean what you say, and that, will be of no help whatsoever in bringing this to resolution. It's a great card the leaving card. Top card in the pack if you are prepared to follow through on it. Otherwise it is very much a loose cannon. Very dangerous indeed. ILIASM shitholes are not situations to engage in bluff or brinkmanship. What you say you must mean. |
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Post by Copernicus on Feb 27, 2017 16:50:20 GMT -5
Dear BoC. As everyone has already stated, unfortunately you do belong here. But at least now you know that you are not alone and support and encouragement are only a 'quick post' away. I would ask you to balance all of the advice you get, but ultimately, you have to OWN the decision. And please, please take your time! There will come a moment when the confusion will disappear (not the fear nor the stress) and you will have clarity and know what to you FOR YOU. As for your husband's ultimatum of "make your mind up quickly", tell him you'll get back to him sometime in the next 24years.
Absorb everything. Filter out the crap. What's left will only strengthen you.
You have many friends here who are walking the road with you. Take care.
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Post by Dan on Feb 27, 2017 17:31:19 GMT -5
Don't give up on the individual counselling. If you have no one else to talk to, then this is your release valve. Don't beat yourself up about being deceived by him initially. Ditto: Don't give up on individual counselling. I sooooo needed it. Needed a 100% safe place to spill. I had a small number of IRL friends I could talk to, but they have their own lives and troubles. The therapist is 100% there for you. Ditto also: Don't beat yourself up! You are where you are. The most important thing to spend your energy on is FORGIVING yourself for anything you blame on yourself... and then spending energy on figuring out what you are going to do next.... then spending energy on DOING the first step. Beating yourself up is wasting energy! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 19:46:31 GMT -5
ballofconfusion, welcome. Everybody else already said the things I would have told you, so I will not repeat them. But this group has been a great resource for many people. I hope we can help you!
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Post by hopingforachange on Feb 27, 2017 22:18:27 GMT -5
Baza gives the best advice!! You mentioned the four kids, are they all teens, and older? (my 6 are) You could very easily be doing them more damage by staying married. The two of you are giving a terrible example of what a loving, intimate, working marriage should be. They see it, and they know it. Maybe they will grow up telling themselves "I will never be like that, I will not make that mistake", and perhaps they won't. Or they will tell themselves, "I won't be like that, and that won't happen to me", but it is instilled in their very being.? These are still formodable years, and you could be doing them a great service by giving the whole family, a fresh new start. It's more than just personal. It involves the whole family, with ripple affects. Your husband sounds like the last to want to realize that, in his manipulative controlling mind. I am dealing with a sexless marriage because the wife's parents have a sexless /roommate message. She views/ viewed sex as a wife's responsibly/ requirement and not something that is needed as part of intimacy. I am not saying this to push you to get a divorce but for something to be mindful of and hopefully prevent from continueing on to your children. |
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Post by ballofconfusion on Mar 2, 2017 19:00:38 GMT -5
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies to me. What a huge relief to finally unburden myself to people who understand how difficult and agonizing this situation can be.
I have identified a good attorney and plan to call and schedule an appointment to better understand the situation and my options (particularly with regard to finances). I also plan to inquire as to whether my part time job could become more "full time" if this needs to happen sooner rather than later.
I also have realized that even if I could drag this out a few years, I am profoundly sad and unhappy in my sexless marriage. You are right - the "why" does nothing to change the situation. I was so unhappy that I had an affair, which is so outside of who I thought myself to be as a person. Then, I felt very little remorse for the affair - just entitled. Ultimately, though it was discovered, I have been unwilling to stop it either. My husband is asking that I "dig in" now, commit to the marriage and "see" where we are in a few years when the youngest heads off to college. I feel unable to give up the sexual and emotional intimacy found with my affair partner in order to help my husband through therapy which will take years. His therapist (who he has now seen for 4 months - much longer than the other two previous therapists) says it could be 3-5 years before he "may" be able to be "sexual," and that is a big "if." I am more inclined to end the marriage now in order to at least salvage a fairly respectable friendship- which persists despite the sexlessness. We have found that when we remain at the "friend" level, all is well. Attempting anything beyond that brings anger and contempt from me and shame and sadness for him. He also suggested the possibility of our living under one roof (even if we do decide to divorce). This would allow us to continue to co-parent, give me time to build some financial security and keep things pretty stable for the kids still at home. Does that idea sound crazy? Anything I may be missing in my thinking? Why do I feel so cruel? Is it wrong to leave if he is actually seriously seeking help now? He still gives me little to no hope in terms of what he may be able to do when he is truly healthy. I think you have to tackle therapy in order to work for something you want (a healthy sexuality) rather than simply to avoid pain (your wife leaving). How else will you be able to progress?
Also, we plan to let the kids know about his childhood abuse and tell them we are working on things, but that it is really difficult. It explains why he has been in the guest room for a few years, allows them to ask questions (without giving them too much information) and maybe let's them process what might be coming- so a divorce, if it comes, isn't such a jolt. I also don't want them to think this situation is one we think is good for a marriage. So, there is that.
I apologize for the delayed reply to your thoughtful posts and advice. Again, I would really value any input as I navigate this very strange time in my life.
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Post by baza on Mar 2, 2017 20:06:49 GMT -5
I think the basis of one aspect of your thinking - calling a halt to the situation now whilst there is still some level of goodwill and friendship - is very sound.
There is very little point in just letting the situation tank completely to the point where everything becomes acrimonious.
The idea of divorcing but still living together is a rarely seen scenario here (the last one I recall was Sister Zsuszwilonger a few years back who trialled this. It was like a faux separation, and proved to be unsustainable) but is a valid enough option to consider.
But I most definitely DO suggest, that whatever choice you make needs to be based on YOUR longer term best interests.
Your spouse, your kids, your rooting partner are all sidebars to the main game. Important sidebars, but still sidebars.
And that main game is what is in YOUR best long term interests.
These other sidebars obviously need consideration, but ought NOT be your prime motivation for your ultimate choice.
You make your choices, they in turn make theirs.
Choice is a bitch, but it is the only thing we have going for us.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 2, 2017 20:53:32 GMT -5
baza is on target, as usual. One sentence just sticks out above the rest. "My husband is asking that I "dig in" now, commit to the marriage and "see" where we are in a few years when the youngest heads off to college." Do you realize how one sided, controlling, and selfish that is? A clasic DARVO. Denial: Not his fault at all. Problem? Problem for years to come? That's for you to deal with. He doesn't have to change or suffer anything for years. Total Avoidance. A complete Reversal making him the Victim and you the Offender! You need to "dig in" and commit to the marriage? What has he done the entire marriage? Zero commitment to the sex/intimacy/respect/needs/self esteem part that you so desperately have been denied all these years. You have been trained to accept this as "the norm" for years. Any resistance is you making trouble. Your loyalty was used against you. What you have ahead of you is a rough difficult, set of choices, and circumstances. They do get easier with each one, there is HOPE! One step at a time. Time to stand your ground, (put on your big girl panties) and take a step forward, No more backward steps. Don't be like Charlie Brown. shrink4men.com/2011/01/19/presto-change-o-darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender/ |
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Post by lyn on Mar 3, 2017 3:35:29 GMT -5
You've received a lot of excellent advice ballofconfusion. I strongly suggest reading through the entire thread a few times. The reality of your situation needs to "sink-in" for real before you can even begin to determine what YOU want, and what YOU need in order to live an authentic and abundant life. When we are subjected to the many facets of daily life in a sexless and intimacy free marriage, it can become nearly impossible to even identify our own true feelings. We tend wear a mask of contentment, created by our own subconscious self-preservation, for the world to see. In essence, as we present this false reality to the world, we may start to believe our own bullshit. I suggest putting aside the "big decision" for a SHORT time so that you're able to actually think about and realize what YOU want your life to look like. Sit down and literally visualize how you want it to look in say 2 years. If these images depict you actually living a happy and fulfilling life, then begin considering the steps necessary to get to that place. Start small - one thing that could add to your personal fulfillment (not including the current AP), one thing just for YOU (think yoga class, maybe art lessons - something you've always wanted to do) Then, follow the steps and make it happen. Move onto to the next thing - same process (maybe some schooling for a job that would interest you - you get the idea). Keep going until you are living that life you want. This process takes time and a great deal of effort. By doing this process and focusing on YOU, all of these seemingly enormous questions will invariably be answered. just be sure to pay attention to the answers as they unfold. Life is short - please live it. |
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Post by snowman12345 on Mar 3, 2017 6:21:51 GMT -5
Thank you all for your thoughtful replies to me. What a huge relief to finally unburden myself to people who understand how difficult and agonizing this situation can be. I have identified a good attorney and plan to call and schedule an appointment to better understand the situation and my options (particularly with regard to finances). I also plan to inquire as to whether my part time job could become more "full time" if this needs to happen sooner rather than later. I also have realized that even if I could drag this out a few years, I am profoundly sad and unhappy in my sexless marriage. You are right - the "why" does nothing to change the situation. I was so unhappy that I had an affair, which is so outside of who I thought myself to be as a person. Then, I felt very little remorse for the affair - just entitled. Ultimately, though it was discovered, I have been unwilling to stop it either. My husband is asking that I "dig in" now, commit to the marriage and "see" where we are in a few years when the youngest heads off to college. I feel unable to give up the sexual and emotional intimacy found with my affair partner in order to help my husband through therapy which will take years. His therapist (who he has now seen for 4 months - much longer than the other two previous therapists) says it could be 3-5 years before he "may" be able to be "sexual," and that is a big "if." I am more inclined to end the marriage now in order to at least salvage a fairly respectable friendship- which persists despite the sexlessness. We have found that when we remain at the "friend" level, all is well. Attempting anything beyond that brings anger and contempt from me and shame and sadness for him. He also suggested the possibility of our living under one roof (even if we do decide to divorce). This would allow us to continue to co-parent, give me time to build some financial security and keep things pretty stable for the kids still at home. Does that idea sound crazy? Anything I may be missing in my thinking? Why do I feel so cruel? Is it wrong to leave if he is actually seriously seeking help now? He still gives me little to no hope in terms of what he may be able to do when he is truly healthy. I think you have to tackle therapy in order to work for something you want (a healthy sexuality) rather than simply to avoid pain (your wife leaving). How else will you be able to progress? Also, we plan to let the kids know about his childhood abuse and tell them we are working on things, but that it is really difficult. It explains why he has been in the guest room for a few years, allows them to ask questions (without giving them too much information) and maybe let's them process what might be coming- so a divorce, if it comes, isn't such a jolt. I also don't want them to think this situation is one we think is good for a marriage. So, there is that. I apologize for the delayed reply to your thoughtful posts and advice. Again, I would really value any input as I navigate this very strange time in my life. Divorce and kids. Believe me they are more perceptive than you realize. What does it tell them when their parents divorce, yet live under the same roof? Is this what they should expect from their own relationships? It sounds good on paper, but consider that staying in the home allows him to continue to manipulate you - control your life and will probably add some guilt for outsourcing. The kids will be able to process that mommy and daddy are still friends and you both love them, but daddy and mommy can't love each other the way that they need to stay together. It will be hard at first - they will need reassurance that it is not their fault. They also need to know that the separate bedroom situation should not be construed as a "normal" intimate relationship.
What happens if you agree to "dig in" and stay just a few more years? A few more lonely, miserable years for him to work through his issues. What if he quits therapy again? What if the therapy does no good? You have a 24 year track record - what is your best guess at what the outcome will be? Life has no guarantees - except that no one gets out alive. Life is not meant for joyless misery.
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Post by Venus Erotes on Apr 14, 2017 20:23:54 GMT -5
Hi All, I have been reading for a few weeks here and working up the courage to post. Married 24 years. Some small bit of intimacy prior to marriage, but we were in the process of converting to Catholicism and so my soon to be husband wanted to "stop" intimacy and wait until after the wedding. Things were not great, at least sexually, prior to the wedding and his decision to stop all intimacy until we were married, but I wrote it off as a moral qualm. I truly believed that once we were married, that issue would disappear and we would embark on a wonderful journey together. I could not have been more wrong. He refused all intimacy on our honeymoon and made me feel as though I was ruining a perfect trip by arguing about sex. I was so hurt and confused and thought there was something wrong with me. I spent countless years trying not to pressure him, trying to look good, trying to get him to desire me as a husband should. Nothing worked. We were intimate about twice a month (I always initiated) for a couple of years and that was workable for me, if not ideal. Unfortunately, as the years passed, that dwindled to monthly, then every few months, and then ED issues surfaced about ten years into the marriage, which made an awkward and difficult situation even worse. We did have four children (Catholic - no birth control - conceived on the first try each time) and two of them are now in college. We have not been intimate since 2010 and have not shared a bed in three years. In 2012 we took a 20th anniversary cruise and he became angry at my advances one evening. A sunset evening with no children in the mediterranean didn't seem like a good time for intimacy and, again, he said I was spoiling a beautiful time. It was very hurtful and I think it was then that I knew it wasn't me, but was him, and that I could not continue living in this manner. It was so depressing, isolating and embarrassing that I never confided in anyone. In 2011, he said he was having flashbacks about sexual abuse as a child from his single mother. I was hopeful that at least this was an explanation for what had been going on in our marriage and figured that with therapy things would improve and we would stand a chance of fixing this situation. He stopped therapy after a couple of months because it was too stressful. I found another therapist and he also stopped seeing him after a couple of months. He moved to the guest room permanently in 2014 and shortly after that, I finally had an affair (outsourced as you say here). This went on for a couple of years and until it was discovered by him. Since the discovery, we have been in individual counseling as well as couples counseling. He has said that he does not think he will ever get to where I "want/need" him to be in this area. He will not agree to an open marriage (and the marriage is good insofar as we are incredible friends). This is very hard because none of this is his fault - what happened to him as a child was horrific. He wants me to decide whether to stay in the marriage or not -and he wants me to decide very soon. How can I make such a decision when I have no idea if he will ever want a normal, happy, healthy sexual relationship? How can I leave him when he is not simply a "refuser?" I have been a stay at home mom most of these years (some part time work). I would be leaving a good man, financial security and hurting my kids all to chase my own happiness - which may be elusive at best. My AP is married and may or may not ever leave his own sexless marriage (we have known each other since we were kids) when his own nest is empty. I would like to stay in my marriage until my kids leave home and still see AP. That is not an option for me. I am, literally, a ball of confusion. What is the right thing to do for my kids, my husband and for me? How do you weigh these things when the "refuser" wants to be sexual but cannot do so due to past trauma? Do you leave and risk being alone (versus alone in the marriage). I am sad. It seems all options lead to so much pain and unhappiness. Thank you if you have read this far. I feel truly awful for being so selfish. I welcome any and all advice. I am you. You are me. My hubs was sexually abused by a camp counselor. I know more about the adult effects of child sexual abuse than I ever thought possible. Bottom line - he's broken. His abuser broke how he view sex. Like my husband he is hypo-sexual. Some go the other direction into hyper-sexual. There is a great support site for us - it's called supportforpartners. I don't remember if it's .com or .org. GO there. You will learn SO much in a very brief period of time. There are several common denominators with these children. 1. they are emotionally the age they were when they were abused. I married a 12 yo. As proof - I currently have a poster of deadpool above my bed. His response when I asked him to remove it- "It's on my side." <<eye roll>> 2. they are control freaks. My children and I walked on eggshells for years because he would fly off the handle at little things. A "BIG mess" to him constituted 2 pieces of paper and a pencil on the floor. 3. Their brains have been re-wired from the abuse. While you and I feel a rush of oxytocin from touch, my hubs is repulsed by touch. That wiring was broken by the abuser. 4. They learned to be loved is to be hurt. It's heartbreaking. 5. They are master manipulators. They were trained by their abuser in manipulation tactics and that's how they have learned to survive through adult life. He blamed you for ruining a vacation because you wanted to have sex. He's rejected a beautiful woman, that he claims to love, but doesn't show it, and life is all about him. He can't see beyond himself. That's as far as I will go for now. Ask him to continue seeking counseling. Continue to support him, but make sure he know's he can't control you anymore. Get yourself into counseling too if you haven't already (I think you are f I remember correctly). It's important for you to learn to love yourself and figure out why you married him to begin with. My reasons were for security & financial stability (thanks to my mother) and serious daddy/abandonment issues. In essence, I married my father - someone who was emotionally unavailable, because everything in life was about him. |
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