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Post by DryCreek on Apr 23, 2016 13:56:13 GMT -5
If she'd never abandoned you sexually, you'd never have thought this long and hard about it. Even if there are underlying issues, regular sex would have kept your mind from wandering to the thoughts of intimacy. It's sad really. If they wanted to keep up the facade, they could have kept the physical up to keep us from thinking. Also I think there is a level of trust in the relationship and in your partner that gets undermined. You no longer believe that if you love the other person enough everything will be OK and sooner or later they will realise what it is you need and be willing to do whatever they can to give it to you. There is, perhaps, a parallel to the old style of employee/employer relationship. There used to be a sense of loyalty/responsibility going both ways; lifelong relationships and a pension for life. You'd do right by the company because they're do right by you. Now it's "fuck you, prove it". No loyalty either direction beyond the next paycheck. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 23, 2016 14:34:30 GMT -5
Counseling didn't work for me and my STBX... The therapist ... asked him if there had ever been a traumatic event in his life when he was young... That was pretty much the moment when the therapist and I both knew we were wasting everyone's time. Nevertheless, I don't regret going - it was worth the attempt to save my marriage and it sure as heck clarified a few things for me. This -- through a different set of lenses -- may have very much been an example of counselling WORKING. That validation probably allowed you to move forward with the split... yes? |
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Post by Rhapsodee on Apr 23, 2016 14:35:14 GMT -5
We start counselling next week. Right now I am feeling very flat and uninspired about it but I am sure I can get up for it over the next few days. I think I am going to focus very hard on wanting more intimacy. We have actually had sex a few times recently (sorry Jason) but for me it is almost making things worse. It is like she goes from 'back the fuck off and keep away from me' and then we will maybe go out for dinner or a drink and have sex afterwards and then the walls slam back up. It is absolutely doing my head in. And it inspires no confidence at all that it won't just evaporate anyway the moment some trauma comes along or she doesn't feel inspired to make the effort any more. So I think some level of ongoing intimacy (not just sexual) is pretty much the bottom line for me. Who has been to couples counselling and any tips? I had set up a counseling session he refused to go so I went a few times. It was a useless endeavor alone. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 23, 2016 14:37:17 GMT -5
MT (marriage therapy) provided for me a "confirmation" akin to what @mountainrunner describes.
Unlike spouses who "hide" their true self in therapy, my wife was very much "her normal self": a little ranty; clinging to old hurts (dealt by life, not me) and even playing the victim; using all that as rationale for her low-libido. The therapist would often say to her: "you might need to go work on that in individual therapy". There were a couple of moments when the therapist was practically eye-rolling at her strange rationales.
And the therapist also provided validation for ME. When I said "Look: I'd like to try to fix the intimacy in our marriage.... but it is not an indefinite offer. I'm not putting a specific deadline on the table, but if we don't fix this in two or three years or something like that, I might ask for a separation." My wife was HORRIFIED that I would say that... as if it was a threatening her life if she didn't have sex with me. She looked to the therapist to back her up. The therapist replied "He's being reasonable".
We DID learn some new communication skills that have made life more livable at home for the past year or so.
But we did NOT bridge the gap on intimacy issues.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 14:41:09 GMT -5
Counseling didn't work for me and my STBX... Nevertheless, I don't regret going - it was worth the attempt to save my marriage and it sure as heck clarified a few things for me. This -- through a different set of lenses -- may have very much been an example of counselling WORKING. That validation probably allowed you to move forward with the split... yes? Oh how I wish I could say yes, but I stuck around another 13+ years, so not so much. It was helpful years later in helping me feel justified in leaving. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 23, 2016 14:42:13 GMT -5
Wright some notes. Bring some questions get the most out of your time,start by admitting your own faults,we all have them. You are going to bring up years of past experiences. Something recent with details, carries more weight for some reason.Our councilor tends to ramble, or get deep into philosophy. You may find yourself defending your stance a lot . Especially if you are the honest one. This happened several times to me. When we met one on one the therapist (reluctantly) would have to admit, " yes, she did not answer the questions, and she points the finger, and changes the subject. " my thoughts are, "and you let her get away with it!"
Our councilor also said, " their is too much finger pointing going on, neither of you want to compromise!" This from the same person who says "bring me your problems and we can work them out! "
Our councilor has thrown his hands up in their a few times, over major setbacks. All were from my wife's rejection and controlling attitude.
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Post by Dan on Apr 23, 2016 14:47:53 GMT -5
Couples therapy is notorious for its lack of statistical success. I think the witch doctor boasts a higher success rate. I don't put a lot of faith that marital therapy is likely to help. But "its lack of statistical success" is NOT a valid reason not to try it. Consider this: I saw a claim on one site that "75% say they're worse off or divorced after marriage counseling". Note this is from a website that happens to be touting an "alternative" to marriage counseling, whatever that is. (Cited on website: www.marriagemax.com/mc2.asp)Of course, even if that number is a statistically accurate value, you can't tell from this number if marriage counseling "helped". For example, you'd have to compare it to a similar population who didn't get counseling. (Or who saw a witch doctor.) Obviously, the population who enter marriage counseling are already in a pretty bad state. This kind of claim seems to me to be analogous to the statement "75% of people who get treatment for stage four lung cancer die within a year -- therefore lung cancer treatment is ineffective". (I don't know that this is true, it is a made-up example). My point is that the statement can lead one to conclude "the treatment is ineffective" just because the outcome is not great. If you had stage four lung cancer and were statistically likely to die in a year if treated, would you reject treatment based on that grounds? |
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Post by Dan on Apr 23, 2016 14:52:52 GMT -5
Oh how I wish I could say yes, but I stuck around another 13+ years, so not so much. It was helpful years later in helping me feel justified in leaving. Ah. Well. Nuts. Sorry to hear that. In my case, that is probably the validation I received in MT about my wife's way of thinking was just a year ago, and has helped convince me that "an exit plan is in order". |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2016 21:35:48 GMT -5
Couples therapy is notorious for its lack of statistical success. I think the witch doctor boasts a higher success rate. I don't put a lot of faith that marital therapy is likely to help. But "its lack of statistical success" is NOT a valid reason not to try it. Consider this: I saw a claim on one site that "75% say they're worse off or divorced after marriage counseling". Note this is from a website that happens to be touting an "alternative" to marriage counseling, whatever that is. (Cited on website: www.marriagemax.com/mc2.asp)Of course, even if that number is a statistically accurate value, you can't tell from this number if marriage counseling "helped". For example, you'd have to compare it to a similar population who didn't get counseling. (Or who saw a witch doctor.) Obviously, the population who enter marriage counseling are already in a pretty bad state. This kind of claim seems to me to be analogous to the statement "75% of people who get treatment for stage four lung cancer die within a year -- therefore lung cancer treatment is ineffective". (I don't know that this is true, it is a made-up example). My point is that the statement can lead one to conclude "the treatment is ineffective" just because the outcome is not great. If you had stage four lung cancer and were statistically likely to die in a year if treated, would you reject treatment based on that grounds? Understood. But if 75% of stage 4 lung cancer patients die within a year of treatment, it's reasonable to consider not getting the treatment. That's my point with couples counseling and witch doctors. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 23, 2016 21:40:27 GMT -5
I also think that counselling ending in divorce can often be a great success. I don't know what the stats are on counselling ending in a muddy stalemate with no insight or change for either participant?
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 24, 2016 3:33:31 GMT -5
Couples therapy is notorious for its lack of statistical success. I think the witch doctor boasts a higher success rate. I saw a claim on one site that "75% say they're worse off or divorced after marriage counseling". Note this is from a website that happens to be touting an "alternative" to marriage counseling, whatever that is. (Cited on website: www.marriagemax.com/mc2.asp)You make valid points. Of course, one has to ask cause vs. effect - did things get worse and fail because of marriage counseling? Or was it heading there anyway and counseling just didn't help (or confirmed it was beyond repair)? For the 25% that didn't suck worse afterwards, status-quo really wouldn't be acceptable or you wouldn't be in counseling in the first place. So, let's say that 10% saw improvements. Is that worth the effort vs. almost certainty of failure if you don't try? Or is it countered by the risk that you'll accelerate the failure if it doesn't work? To Unmatched's point, counseling ending in divorce doesn't necessarily indicate failure. The issue came to a resolution, just not the fairy tale version. |
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Post by deleted on Apr 24, 2016 12:38:34 GMT -5
I look at it this way. If people are happier after counseling, then it worked. It doesn't matter much, if the couple is still together or not. If they aren't, at least they can say they tried and have one less regret.
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Post by unmatched on Apr 24, 2016 22:38:54 GMT -5
I think we are fucked.
We were talking last night and she came out with, 'I don't know why you even want to go to counselling.' WTF!!! After all this time and everything we have been through you are telling me you don't know! I just said, 'because I want intimacy and passion and sex in my life' and she went very quiet and said Let's talk about it on Wednesday.
I get that we don't want the same things and I get that she is happy the way things are but how can she care so little about me that she doesn't see who I am and what I want and isn't remotely interested in getting inside my head and trying to at least understand me. How is that a relationship?
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Post by deborahmanning on Apr 24, 2016 22:52:07 GMT -5
It's not, unmatched. I'm sorry.
But perhaps you will have one in future, with plenty of intimacy and passion and sex. That's what I'm hoping for.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 8:29:31 GMT -5
We were talking last night and she came out with, 'I don't know why you even want to go to counselling.' WTF!!! After all this time and everything we have been through you are telling me you don't know! I just said, 'because I want intimacy and passion and sex in my life' and she went very quiet and said Let's talk about it on Wednesday. Okay, this is the second time you've posted something that made me instinctively think, "she's afraid." This post and also "Love and Change." I know that's probably not a huge light bulb moment for you - I'm sure you're aware that you are taking her world and shaking it. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't, because I absolutely think you need to. It's just that I've had such a strong, gut reaction to both these posts that she is deeply afraid. Unless she's a stone cold moron (and I highly doubt you would have married such a person), she knows EXACTLY why you want to go to counseling and she is terrified that either she will have to change and she doesn't want to, or that she will have to change and she won't be able to. Maybe this fear will motivate her. At least she said you would talk about it on Wednesday - that's more than I ever got out of my STBX. And just for a moment, think about the effect you had on her when you stated simply and directly what you want - it silenced her, it got her attention. Remember that when you go into counseling. There is enormous power in being clear about what you want and stating it without anger. There is something very scary about pushing a person to the point that they no longer respond to you emotionally - it would be far easier on her if you yelled or even cried because then she would know that she still had the ability to get to you. Anyway, I have no idea if any of this is helpful or insightful or just ridiculously obvious, but I couldn't ignore my reaction again so I took a chance and posted this. |
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