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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 18, 2023 5:51:08 GMT -5
wishfulthinking....welcome to the forum. Improving one's physical and mental self isn't just for the sake of your W hopefully finding some lust for you. It brings many more benefits in other ways. So keep working out and seeing that therapist if you feel they help your mindset in how you see ourself. As for the "saving your marriage" manuals most are a bunch of crap. There are only worthwhile if both partners agree their is work they can both do to improve the marriage. Otherwise the guideance is basically worthless.
It is said that women are not as visual as men. Meaning that they place less emphasis on a man's looks than men place on a woman's looks. I don't know if that is true but if it is it can explain somewhat the missing attention you expected as your physical appearance improved. And women typically do not initiate a conversation even if they find a man attractive. It's almost always the male that has to pursue a potential new partner or relationship.
It reads like both of you are somewhat low libido. Maybe over the long haul that has been positive. Most of the members here have experienced a signifigant difference in their libidos compared with their spouses.
For most of us having a "talk" with our spouses was difficult. You know going in it might be hurtful and we do not wish to hurt those we love. But communication is essential if an issue is to be resolved. The talk does mot need to be confrontational. Afetr all, you are seeking to help your partner see something that constitutes a threat to the marriage. She may be wishing for such a talk but also be afraid to start that conversation. Spend some time organising your thoughts and then have that "talk". Get youe W's thoughts and listen to her feelings. Maybe she doesn't see a problem or maybe she is afraid of what she sees. Gird up your loins and stop kicking the can down the road. ...Good luck
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 18, 2023 7:07:40 GMT -5
"Thanks" to negative comments I received over my life, I have a low opinion of my self worth, and how I look. I have suffered with depression, and see a therapist, where I was diagnosed with Body Dysmorphic Disorder... the book Married Man Sex Life Primer. Unfortunately this made little difference in my sex life, and despite assurances from the information, I wasn't noticed by other women either. Sorry for the stinko people you've had in your life, WishfulThinking. By the dysmorphia diagnosis, it sounds like it sunk in. Depending how serious you are about outsourcing (extramarital intimacy) you may want to put that dysmorphia in check, or train yourself to pretend you have confidence. (Fake it til you make it) The former is more gratifying, but the latter may be quicker to implement (and cheaper, based on time with the therapist.) If you improved your physique, hoping for physical attraction; such attention is typically reserved for the truly supreme specimens of our half of the species. Such men are booked solid and have little to offer the women that admire them, other than stud service; which many accept. Dating sites are populated by women that know you are interested in intimacy and some of them are too. It gets the guesswork out of the way. (some are there to get an ego boost by the hundreds of propositions.) One of our members, Baza, wisely advises ILIASM folk considering outsourcing that they get legal consultation in case any pursuit of the matter triggers a divorce from the refusing spouse. |
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Post by wishfulthinking on Sept 18, 2023 22:52:28 GMT -5
worksforme2Thanks for the comments. To be honest I consider myself high libido. I'd love for sex to be twice a week or more, providing it's not duty sex to keep me happy. However, it's never been that frequent, and is never likely to be. If anything, the frequency will just get lower. My wife, on the other hand, either low libido or has never been attracted. If it's the former, and after reading information, she shows signs of being asexual. I'm not so sure about the whole women aren't as looks focused as men thing. Online dating has given women not only an increased number of options, but the choice of better looking men. I know personality and other factors come into play, but it's looks that get your foot in the door. I'm convinced that if I was starting dating now, in my 20s, I'd have no chance.
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 19, 2023 4:54:51 GMT -5
worksforme2 Thanks for the com ments. To be honest I consider myself high libido. I'd love for sex to be twice a week or more, providing it's not duty sex. It's looks that get your foot in the door. I'm convinced that if I was starting dating now, in my 20s, I'd have no chance. This is a story I have told here many times. In college there was an individual on my dorm floor who was shall we say , "challenged" when it came to looks. He was tall, skinny and nothing about him seemed particularily attractive. But when there was a campus event, dance, ball game, concert,etc., he would arrive with a definite looker on his arm without exception. None of us could figure it out. So we ask him one day how he did it. His reply stuck with me. "Boys, it's not your physique, it's your technique". My dating experiences over the years have confirmed to me, he was right. Keep that in mind and if you think your looks are the problem, work on your technique. Women love a good sence of humor. They appreciate quick reparte' and the ability to find something unusual or unique in the surroundings or how you view things. And every woman wants to feel special amd attractive. Focus your attention and efforts along those lines. |
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Post by aquacat on Sept 19, 2023 14:41:47 GMT -5
worksforme2 Thanks for the comments. To be honest I consider myself high libido. I'd love for sex to be twice a week or more, providing it's not duty sex to keep me happy. However, it's never been that frequent, and is never likely to be. If anything, the frequency will just get lower. My wife, on the other hand, either low libido or has never been attracted. If it's the former, and after reading information, she shows signs of being asexual. I'm not so sure about the whole women aren't as looks focused as men thing. Online dating has given women not only an increased number of options, but the choice of better looking men. I know personality and other factors come into play, but it's looks that get your foot in the door. I'm convinced that if I was starting dating now, in my 20s, I'd have no chance. I can totally relate as I believe my wife is asexual as well. |
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Post by dumbsweede on Sept 27, 2023 16:37:44 GMT -5
Hello there. I am so very happy to have found this place. First off, I want to apologize for my bad english. As my nickname implies, I am swedish, so this is not my first language. If I come over as being overly frank, clumsy or just strange, it's probably not me acting aggressive, but rather me lacking in translation skills.
My wife and I've ben together for 20 years. We used to have great sex. But as some years passed we had less and less of that still quite good sex. Today, if we have sex at all - years can pass - it's not good anymore, it's quite bad. I do love her. Deeply. To be totally honest, I have never met a better human being than her. We are the best match in every way one can possibly think of - except for the sex part. As a matter of fact, one of the things that I experience as very tricky with this whole situation, is that the sexlessness has led me to sometimes despise the one person that i respect the most.
Over the (sexless) years I've found ways to connect and feel intimate with her without sex, but if I am honest, it's not the same, not at all. The connection I get from sex is so much deeper than any "shared experince" or "great conversation". Yes, I can feel intimate with her, but it only goes so far, never all the way. I miss it so deeply. If you ask me, this is our biggest issue. And she also recognizes that we have a problem. We can talk about this with one another like civilized beings. Communication is not our problem. Our problem is that nothing ever happens. We've tried so many angles: Leaving all the initiatives to her, leaving them to me, intimacy training, communicating even more than we normally do (we're both writers, so communication is already to begin with kind of our thing), meeting her half way, meeting me half way, meeting her all the way and vice versa ... Nothing works.
Well, I wont be wasting more of your time here and now. There's no way I could fully describe our situation in this little presentation anyway - at least not without throwing myself into a completely unreadable and egocentric digression that would bore you to death. I'll be hanging around. Reading what You, older and wiser members, have to say about your experience's and on the topics displayed. Thanks for taking me on guys, I really appreciate it.
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Post by baza on Sept 27, 2023 17:36:59 GMT -5
Most newbies here arrive with a view that - "Everything is great bar the sex" You apear to be at this point too Brother dumbsweede . If you keep reading and participating in this group it will be interesting to see if you still hold the view that "Everything is great bar the sex" in a few months time. Anyway, welcome to you. Hope you get some benefit out of the group. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 27, 2023 19:39:58 GMT -5
Two things dumbsweede: 1) Your English is very good. No worries there. 2) You may want to check into teh history of ILIASM member jerri. She loved her husband in every way he liked, and got sex from others, with his knowledge (and, eventually, tacit acceptance.). Maybe that route would work for you if she's great in every other respect. I planned to do the same thing she did, but when I told my wife I'd be going elsewhere for intimacy four years ago, she became intimate with me again. She, like your wife, was aware that celibacy was abnormal, but could not make herself do anything about it, until our monogamy was in peril. Damnedest thing. |
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Post by dumbsweede on Sept 29, 2023 11:46:41 GMT -5
Two things dumbsweede : 1) Your English is very good. No worries there. 2) You may want to check into teh history of ILIASM member jerri . She loved her husband in every way he liked, and got sex from others, with his knowledge (and, eventually, tacit acceptance.). Maybe that route would work for you if she's great in every other respect. I planned to do the same thing she did, but when I told my wife I'd be going elsewhere for intimacy four years ago, she became intimate with me again. She, like your wife, was aware that celibacy was abnormal, but could not make herself do anything about it, until our monogamy was in peril. Damnedest thing. Thanks for your reply. I'd be lying if I said I haven't ben thinking about it - having an affair, or the possibility that maybe we could have an open realtionship. And I would be lying twice, if i said that I haven't also ben pondering, that bringing such an arrangement up to discussion maybe could make her think twice, come around and start being intimate with me again. I wonder though, what's it like between your wife and you theese days? Does she want sex - like you want it - or is she just putting up with it, in fear of loosing you? Personally, I don't want someone who just shows up for sex, I want someone who wants to have sex with me, if not just as much, but at least almost as much as I want to have sex with them. Don't get me wrong, I consider myself being fairly open minded, and I don't she anything wrong with an arrangement where one party want's something more than the other party, as long as both parttake in it of their won free will. It's just that I simply don't get turned on by a person who's not turned on by me. I want her to want me. |
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Post by dumbsweede on Sept 29, 2023 12:01:48 GMT -5
Most newbies here arrive with a view that - "Everything is great bar the sex" You apear to be at this point too Brother dumbsweede . If you keep reading and participating in this group it will be interesting to see if you still hold the view that "Everything is great bar the sex" in a few months time. Anyway, welcome to you. Hope you get some benefit out of the group. Thank you for your welcoming. I get what you'r saying. No, everything isn't great between us. I could have written a much longer text, about all the different components that make up our marriage, but that wouldn't have ben readable. What I was aiming for was rather that, all things considered, our realtionship is quite a good and strong one. All realtionships, sexless and sex drenched, have their problems. Before I met my wife I had a lot of gf's, among them one girl that I was living with for nine years. We simply could not talk. We had a lot of sex though. That tas pretty draining as well. I can talk to my wife, about everything, but we dont have sex. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 30, 2023 6:21:22 GMT -5
Most newbies here arrive with a view that - "Everything is great bar the sex" You apear to be at this point too Brother dumbsweede . If you keep reading and participating in this group it will be interesting to see if you still hold the view that "Everything is great bar the sex" in a few months time. Anyway, welcome to you. Hope you get some benefit out of the group. Thank you for your welcoming. I get what you'r saying. No, everything isn't great between us. I could have written a much longer text, about all the different components that make up our marriage, but that wouldn't have ben readable. What I was aiming for was rather that, all things considered, our realtionship is quite a good and strong one. All realtionships, sexless and sex drenched, have their problems. Before I met my wife I had a lot of gf's, among them one girl that I was living with for nine years. We simply could not talk. We had a lot of sex though. That tas pretty draining as well. I can talk to my wife, about everything, but we dont have sex. If you can talk to her about anything then obviously you have talked to her about the poor state of intimacy in the marriage. How does she address that by way of explaination or justification. If she replies poorly or cannot justify why she refuses sex, then perhaps it is time to talk to her about a compromise. What will she accept as a fair approach for you to get your needs met. If she no longer sees you as a sex partner will she be OK with your having a FWB. If she loves you she should want to see you happy and content sexually. It would be best if she was the one providing the satisfaction, but if she is unwilling then she should be understanding if another woman takes on that role. That is if she loves you. |
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Post by nightowl on Oct 2, 2023 9:46:35 GMT -5
Hello all. A long time lurker here who's always found this forum informative and helpful. No one wants to be in the club, but here we are. "misery loves company" as they say! So, what can I add? Nothing new. Mine is a well worn story, 15 years of marriage to a wonderful woman who I love dearly. The first 5 years were great, although there were warning signs. Sex was twice per week and fairly adventurous. By year 4 it was once per week and a new stressful job and a move from London to NYC was the reason behind it. I asked, I got my answer. "things will improve when I settle into this new job" OK! By year 6 we were settled in the US and sex was once every 2 weeks which somehow slipped to once per month. Her job became more demanding, better paid and with more travel overseas. We took long adventurous vacations when we could but still the sex was infrequent, I decided that she just wasn't a sexual person, It wasn't high on her "to do" list. We're back living in northern Europe now, we have no kids, our house is paid for and we have very few financial worries, her 47 and me 52. We've been extremely fortunate, worked long hours but had luck on our side. My wife is probably my best friend, she's the person I want to travel with, she's the person I want to share adventures with, sit and drink a glass of wine with of an evening and she's also the person i long to have sex with. It's now been 3 long years with no sex. The menopause has struck and it's been brutal for her and it feels like it's game over, sex is the last thing on her mind. It's been difficult for me to bring up the subject with a woman who works a 12- 14 hour days, everyday, and survives on zero sleep. I've tried and failed, we rarely argue, but the past 3 years have hit me hard. I feel I've lost so much and my confidence has been shattered. I can no longer remember what it feels like to have sex.
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 2, 2023 12:36:37 GMT -5
Hello Nightowl,
it can creep up on people and the longer we try to be patient/ understanding / accept excuses etc the harder it is to have a serious Talk and share what we feel maybe rejected/ lonely.
As we think about it the longing for intimacy gets stronger as well...
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 2, 2023 13:14:56 GMT -5
Hell nightowl,....and welcome to the forum.
Several thing struck me as contradictory in your post. You stated your W is your best friend, the person you wish to travel with, share adventures with etc. But you go on to say she works 12-14 hours 7 days a week. How do you do any of these things you spoke about, with her. It reads like she has more interest in her career than in the marriage. And it reads like her job may be making her soanxious she is also sleepdeprived. You may be in the market for a new W. as she labors toward a stroke or heart attack. My X also became sexless following menopause. when I addressed my age related issues with ED I ask her to consider HRT but she refused.
If you can't talk to your W about the poor state of intimacy in the marriage what can you talk to her about. Sounds like poor communication may be in play here among other things. You tried to talk to her about it and failed. How so? Did you fail or did she blow of your feelings in favor of her career? Did she have a reasonable justification for her choice?
And lasly so as not to unjustly put all the blame on your W., are you guilty of the same priortizing of work over your marriage?
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 2, 2023 18:16:16 GMT -5
Two things dumbsweede : 1) Your English is very good. No worries there. 2) You may want to check into teh history of ILIASM member jerri . She loved her husband in every way he liked, and got sex from others, with his knowledge (and, eventually, tacit acceptance.). Maybe that route would work for you if she's great in every other respect. I planned to do the same thing she did, but when I told my wife I'd be going elsewhere for intimacy four years ago, she became intimate with me again. She, like your wife, was aware that celibacy was abnormal, but could not make herself do anything about it, until our monogamy was in peril. Damnedest thing. Thanks for your reply. I'd be lying if I said I haven't been thinking about it - having an affair, or the possibility that maybe we could have an open relationship. And I would be lying twice, if i said that I haven't also ben pondering, that bringing such an arrangement up to discussion maybe could make her think twice, come around and start being intimate with me again. I wonder though, what's it like between your wife and you these days? Does she want sex - like you want it - or is she just putting up with it, in fear of loosing you? Personally, I don't want someone who just shows up for sex, I want someone who wants to have sex with me, if not just as much, but at least almost as much as I want to have sex with them. Don't get me wrong, I consider myself being fairly open minded, and I don't she anything wrong with an arrangement where one party want's something more than the other party, as long as both partake in it of their won free will. It's just that I simply don't get turned on by a person who's not turned on by me. I want her to want me. She's in between. Doesn't want it nearly the way I do, but when she offers, the foreplay is steamy, I can get her to climax almost always, and...well, her post-menopause makes sex something she's generous with. After four years of sexless marriage (ten times or fewer), she bumped it to about 17, commonly every three weeks. It's been pleasantly surprising how manageable that compromise has been. I don't know how I'd react to phoning it in. I'm pretty sure I'd reject starfish. I think some refusers do starfish, not just because they're not into it, but as a deliberate effort to make sex feel wrong. No refused spouse should feel obligated to accept such crumbs. Passive-aggressive "intimacy"? Yeah, I'll pass and re-activate my OKcupid account. You need to figure out why you're upset at me, get medical help, or read up on "responsive desire" and maybe do a bit of exploration so you can tell me how to make love. Some refusers don't masturbate. They were brought up think sex was for men and making babies. Enjoy it? That's lust! A deadly sin! Luckily, my wife never had those hangups. She has other hangups, though. Some distract her horribly and sabotage closeness that I wish was better. She's back in therapy and likes the new therapist. Perhaps that can put some bugaboos to bed. |
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