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Post by nightowl on Oct 3, 2023 0:56:42 GMT -5
Hell nightowl,....and welcome to the forum. Several thing struck me as contradictory in your post. You stated your W is your best friend, the person you wish to travel with, share adventures with etc. But you go on to say she works 12-14 hours 7 days a week. How do you do any of these things you spoke about, with her. It reads like she has more interest in her career than in the marriage. And it reads like her job may be making her soanxious she is also sleepdeprived. You may be in the market for a new W. as she labors toward a stroke or heart attack. My X also became sexless following menopause. when I addressed my age related issues with ED I ask her to consider HRT but she refused. If you can't talk to your W about the poor state of intimacy in the marriage what can you talk to her about. Sounds like poor communication may be in play here among other things. You tried to talk to her about it and failed. How so? Did you fail or did she blow of your feelings in favor of her career? Did she have a reasonable justification for her choice? And lasly so as not to unjustly put all the blame on your W., are you guilty of the same priortizing of work over your marriage? Thank you for this reply, some valid points here. It often takes an outsider to point out what we on the inside might have been blind to. My wife does work long hours. She'll often work 6 days and long into the evenings. We do however live in a country that guarantees us 6 weeks paid vacation so even though many times I've been doing laps of a hotel pool while my wife is in the room working, we usually get time away together. My job isn't quite as demanding and I'd say I have a different relationship with work. I think you're correct, our relationship is fine as it is as far as she's concerned, it works for her, she can concentrate on her career, we have no kids to take away her focus, only me. Maybe I haven't pushed hard enough with these discussions. I've been easily brushed off with "can we discuss this tomorrow, I have this presentation to prepare" As you mention, a heart attack is looming on the horizon for her if she doesn't slow down sometime soon. I'll then be a sexless widow facing a whole new scenario. Our next vacation will be in December, her father died recently so now isn't the time to rock the boat with "trivial" things like me wanting a sex life!! I'll hang in there and take what I can from reading this forum. I think December will be my time to spell it out, away from her desk, and away from stress.
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Post by nightowl on Oct 4, 2023 6:43:54 GMT -5
Hello Nightowl, it can creep up on people and the longer we try to be patient/ understanding / accept excuses etc the harder it is to have a serious Talk and share what we feel maybe rejected/ lonely. As we think about it the longing for intimacy gets stronger as well... Hello Toughtiger, Yes I think you've hit the nail on the head, I've been patient, perhaps too much so and now I feel the opportunity to reverse this situation may have left town! I feel lonely, rejected and frustrated as so many do on this forum.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 4, 2023 7:31:24 GMT -5
I think you're correct, our relationship is fine as it is as far as she's concerned, it works for her, she can concentrate on her career, we have no kids to take away her focus, only me. Maybe I haven't pushed hard enough with these discussions. I've been easily brushed off with "can we discuss this tomorrow, I have this presentation to prepare" As you mention, a heart attack is looming on the horizon for her if she doesn't slow down sometime soon. I'll then be a sexless widow facing a whole new scenario. Our next vacation will be in December, her father died recently so now isn't the time to rock the boat with "trivial" things like me wanting a sex life!! I'll hang in there and take what I can from reading this forum. I think December will be my time to spell it out, away from her desk, and away from stress. From your response I would venture a guess that sex isn't the only thing missing from the relatonship. She easily blew off your attempt to discuss a serious issue. I would bet a dollar in the dark that she contributes little if anything by way of other intimacy. I'm betting there is no cuddling, no deep kissing and likely any hugs are pretty short and do notheing to foster any real closeness between the two of you. When was the lasst time she said "she loves you" other than quickly as she walks toward the door? December, that is 2 months away. One thing that has been learned here is that the longer a marriage remains sexless the less likely it is that anything can be done to change the dynamic. If December is the soonest it can happen don't put the talk off any longer. One question, what do you mean by "spell it out"?
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 4, 2023 8:16:21 GMT -5
. Maybe I haven't pushed hard enough with these discussions. I've been easily brushed off with "can we discuss this tomorrow, I have this presentation to prepare" As you mention, a heart attack is looming on the horizon for her if she doesn't slow down sometime soon. I'll then be a sexless widow facing a whole new scenario. Our next vacation will be in December, her father died recently so now isn't the time to rock the boat with "trivial" things like me wanting a sex life!! I'll hang in there and take what I can from reading this forum. I think December will be my time to spell it out, away from her desk, and away from stress. This may be the biggest mistake we make .... trying to time the talk..... wait until vacation or slow time at work when they are in a better mood .... there is no RIGHT time. by pushing off the talk and being brushed off you are in fact telling her it is not a big deal/ you are fine as is.... Like it or not you are letting yourself be put farther and farther down the to do list....literally. when you have the talk do not fall into traps of "lets think about it/ we can revisit later/ fuzzy compromise solutions / i am busy now ... wait until" ....... these are all a big F you to your needs and wants. My spouse is a big workaholic too so i asked how many times does he kick a topic down the road with his boss? the fact is work is work but where does she live..... if the company folded tomorrow what other item will she throw herself into to avoid you ....... that is not marriage
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m76
Full Member
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Post by m76 on Oct 4, 2023 8:19:36 GMT -5
. Maybe I haven't pushed hard enough with these discussions. I've been easily brushed off with "can we discuss this tomorrow, I have this presentation to prepare" As you mention, a heart attack is looming on the horizon for her if she doesn't slow down sometime soon. I'll then be a sexless widow facing a whole new scenario. Our next vacation will be in December, her father died recently so now isn't the time to rock the boat with "trivial" things like me wanting a sex life!! I'll hang in there and take what I can from reading this forum. I think December will be my time to spell it out, away from her desk, and away from stress. This may be the biggest mistake we make .... trying to time the talk..... wait until vacation or slow time at work when they are in a better mood .... there is no RIGHT time. by pushing off the talk and being brushed off you are in fact telling her it is not a big deal/ you are fine as is.... Like it or not you are letting yourself be put farther and farther down the to do list....literally. when you have the talk do not fall into traps of "lets think about it/ we can revisit later/ fuzzy compromise solutions / i am busy now ... wait until" ....... these are all a big F you to your needs and wants. My spouse is a big workaholic too so i asked how many times does he kick a topic down the road with his boss? the fact is work is work but where does she live..... if the company folded tomorrow what other item will she throw herself into to avoid you ....... that is not marriage Don't be like me... I pushed off this conversation for 15 years.
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Post by nightowl on Oct 5, 2023 6:12:31 GMT -5
I think you're correct, our relationship is fine as it is as far as she's concerned, it works for her, she can concentrate on her career, we have no kids to take away her focus, only me. Maybe I haven't pushed hard enough with these discussions. I've been easily brushed off with "can we discuss this tomorrow, I have this presentation to prepare" As you mention, a heart attack is looming on the horizon for her if she doesn't slow down sometime soon. I'll then be a sexless widow facing a whole new scenario. Our next vacation will be in December, her father died recently so now isn't the time to rock the boat with "trivial" things like me wanting a sex life!! I'll hang in there and take what I can from reading this forum. I think December will be my time to spell it out, away from her desk, and away from stress. From your response I would venture a guess that sex isn't the only thing missing from the relatonship. She easily blew off your attempt to discuss a serious issue. I would bet a dollar in the dark that she contributes little if anything by way of other intimacy. I'm betting there is no cuddling, no deep kissing and likely any hugs are pretty short and do notheing to foster any real closeness between the two of you. When was the lasst time she said "she loves you" other than quickly as she walks toward the door? December, that is 2 months away. One thing that has been learned here is that the longer a marriage remains sexless the less likely it is that anything can be done to change the dynamic. If December is the soonest it can happen don't put the talk off any longer. One question, what do you mean by "spell it out"? Yep, very little affection in the way of cuddles and kisses. That said she's never really been one to show affection. I could live without the kisses and hugs. Living without a sex life and no closeness is beyond difficult. We all want to feel wanted. By "spelling it out" I mean really get into this discussion about our marriage and our sex life. Where does this end if we don't fix it? I think many on this forum know exactly how this ends. One person walks away. Do I want that? Not at all. I want to be with the woman I'm with but if she can't understand that I might want sex once in a while then where do we go from there. Out source, walk away or put up with it appear to be the solutions.
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Post by nightowl on Oct 5, 2023 6:16:29 GMT -5
This may be the biggest mistake we make .... trying to time the talk..... wait until vacation or slow time at work when they are in a better mood .... there is no RIGHT time. by pushing off the talk and being brushed off you are in fact telling her it is not a big deal/ you are fine as is.... Like it or not you are letting yourself be put farther and farther down the to do list....literally. when you have the talk do not fall into traps of "lets think about it/ we can revisit later/ fuzzy compromise solutions / i am busy now ... wait until" ....... these are all a big F you to your needs and wants. My spouse is a big workaholic too so i asked how many times does he kick a topic down the road with his boss? the fact is work is work but where does she live..... if the company folded tomorrow what other item will she throw herself into to avoid you ....... that is not marriage "how many times does he kick a topic down the road with the boss" That's a very good point. Will I have the courage to ask that? I need to for sure because when that phone of hers pings with a work email she's on it instantly. When I want to talk about our sex life she makes excuses! Don't be like me... I pushed off this conversation for 15 years.
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Post by revolutionarycanary on Oct 9, 2023 2:28:48 GMT -5
Hello All, just found this forum from a comment on a Facebook post.
Introducing myself, my wife and I are in our early sixties, empty nesters, and have been married for 35 years.
We are approaching 20 years of no sexual intimacy. We have had issues in our marriage, in part from my ADHD, her depression, menopause, me raised as an only child, and her upbringing where I understand she never received love and support from her father, an eastern European WW2 refugee whose traumatic history involved witnessing the execution of his father.
We are both committed Christians with a reformed Protestant worldview, although she was raised Catholic and was schooled in the Catholic education system. I switched churches after reaching out for help and receiving a flippant and unhelpful response. My wife elected not to follow as she suffers crippling shyness, putting it as "do you expect me to leave behind all my friends?" Her church now has a new minister. Given that she won’t come to mine, I’ve been visiting back with her the last few months.
We have been seeing a therapist who practices Family Systems Therapy, whom I was referred to by the minister of my current church (who is an outstanding human), and this therapist has been excellent. Many of her issues with me we are working through, and we are on a good path with that. She has been volunteering affection and that part has been on a marked upswing since. No sexual intimacy yet, though.
In our last session I brought up a passage from Paul's writings that partners should not withhold intimacy from each other, except for a short time for a specific purpose by mutual agreement. She responded that if she couldn't get to a point where she "felt like it", that we might have to divorce. On the way home I mentioned that she shocked me with that. Her response was, what did you expect, it was the logical conclusion.
Please understand I'm not making any judgements on anyone else here who doesn't hold our worldview with this next statement. I'm just beyond upset that it seems her solution to getting off the hook of following St Paul's guidance on intimacy is to tip me out of the frying pan into the fire, putting the choice on me of either giving up hope on intimacy or leaving the marriage to thus become an adulterer.
That was a month ago, and I've been in a pretty grim place since. I’ve been very emotional, and am unable to concentrate to the point where it's affecting my work. There has been suicide ideation at times.
I’ve been hiding all this from my wife. In part this is because I feel like I don’t have the tools to raise it in a way where I’m confident we can deal with it constructively. And the last thing I want is to be coercive. Sitting on the ourside looking in, I would have to say I’m depressed.
We have a session on Wednesday with the therapist again. I think I may need a separate solo session with him as well.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 9, 2023 5:52:46 GMT -5
... I switched churches after reaching out for help and receiving a flippant and unhelpful response. My wife elected not to follow as she suffers crippling shyness, putting it as "do you expect me to leave behind all my friends?" Her church now has a new minister. Given that she won’t come to mine, I’ve been visiting back with her the last few months.... ...In our last session I brought up a passage from Paul's writings that partners should not withhold intimacy from each other, except for a short time for a specific purpose by mutual agreement. She responded that if she couldn't get to a point where she "felt like it", that we might have to divorce. On the way home I mentioned that she shocked me with that. Her response was, what did you expect, it was the logical conclusion. Please understand I'm not making any judgements on anyone else here who doesn't hold our worldview with this next statement. I'm just beyond upset that it seems her solution to getting off the hook of following St Paul's guidance on intimacy is to tip me out of the frying pan into the fire, putting the choice on me of either giving up hope on intimacy or leaving the marriage to thus become an adulterer. That was a month ago, and I've been in a pretty grim place since. I’ve been very emotional, and am unable to concentrate to the point where it's affecting my work. There has been suicide ideation at times. I’ve been hiding all this from my wife. In part this is because I feel like I don’t have the tools to raise it in a way where I’m confident we can deal with it constructively. And the last thing I want is to be coercive. Sitting on the outside looking in, I would have to say I’m depressed. We have a session on Wednesday with the therapist again. I think I may need a separate solo session with him as well. Was the help you were seeking from church concerning sexlessness? Or something else? Kind of you to drop by the papists for her sake. Unsolicited advice:
Embrace the therapy to encourage affection. Expect it to fail, but do not convey your skepticism, nor express anger at it stopping short of satisfactory intimacy. This is the best chance for sexful marriage within your Christian beliefs. Your devotion to those beliefs may require you to be sexless permanently. Coming to grips with that and forging a plan of celibacy for yourself will maintain those beliefs. Your wife, the proper Catholic, has decided not to follow Paul's guidance, though the good book be infallible. This suggests she is Catholic for the sake of the social component; not leaving her friends. Paul's directive to eschew celibacy is disposable to her and the will encourage you to sever the divine bond between you, or succumb to her mortal will in violation of scripture. It comes to a point where you may be facing the choice of lifelong hardship to win the kingdom of heaven through obedience, while she relies on the mercy of Jesus to also be accepted. Is this a fate your faith requires of you, that you will accept, and that you have the strength to fulfill? If not, can you see yourself doing as she does and relying on prayer for forgiveness for the compromises you will make due to the weakness of flesh in light of the vows your wife has broken; to "forsake all others", choosing instead to "forsake all". You can seek support in either direction from ILIASM. You may wish to start this journey through the "Choosing to Stay" portion of the board. There, divorce may be mentioned, but is not supposed to be encouraged. If you seek individual therapy, you may wish to begin with your disposition for divorce. I have read that individual therapists steer in that direction early and hard. Marriage therapists being only slightly better. You'll want to examine your own dedication to the institution regularly and consciously decide to consider it on your own terms rather than succumb to persuasion, unaware. Job was provided inhuman levels of temptation. If you cannot meet his divine levels of tolerance, you'll have fellow sinners available to help you find the least objectionable path that falls short of your ideals. In the event your wife is not bluffing, and the commitment to your holy bond is largely one-sided, in terms of spiritual rigor, you may find yourself in a difficult place of condemnation for her less adamant faith. The Bible speaks of such mixed marriages and has guidance. I can try to help you find the scripture verses if you cannot. Perhaps a concordance can help. I've misplaced mine and I'm not conversant with it. Dedicating yourself to a holy bond that only one of you places Godly importance upon may be excruciating at times. Will you be able to bear the burden by yourself and find necessary acceptance? To explain this attempt to reconcile your faith with your plight without leading you towards impressions we have more in common than we do, I am a Arian Yahvist, non-believer of the Trinity. I attend church infrequently but have visited Lutheran, Methodist, Quaker, Congregationalist, and Son of David churches and had a very well versed Jehovah's witness as a Bible study partner for a while. I have additionally appreciated a trickle of traditions from the Anabaptists, Calvinists, Latter Day Saints, and Orthodox Jews. I have found portions of all but one these faiths to hold value.
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Post by csl on Oct 9, 2023 8:00:03 GMT -5
I, too, am a Christian, and have a blog dealing with sexless marriage, divorce, etc., from a Christian perspective. The url is in my tag line, below.
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Post by revolutionarycanary on Oct 9, 2023 8:54:45 GMT -5
... I switched churches after reaching out for help and receiving a flippant and unhelpful response. My wife elected not to follow as she suffers crippling shyness, putting it as "do you expect me to leave behind all my friends?" Her church now has a new minister. Given that she won’t come to mine, I’ve been visiting back with her the last few months.... ...In our last session I brought up a passage from Paul's writings that partners should not withhold intimacy from each other, except for a short time for a specific purpose by mutual agreement. She responded that if she couldn't get to a point where she "felt like it", that we might have to divorce. On the way home I mentioned that she shocked me with that. Her response was, what did you expect, it was the logical conclusion. Please understand I'm not making any judgements on anyone else here who doesn't hold our worldview with this next statement. I'm just beyond upset that it seems her solution to getting off the hook of following St Paul's guidance on intimacy is to tip me out of the frying pan into the fire, putting the choice on me of either giving up hope on intimacy or leaving the marriage to thus become an adulterer. That was a month ago, and I've been in a pretty grim place since. I’ve been very emotional, and am unable to concentrate to the point where it's affecting my work. There has been suicide ideation at times. I’ve been hiding all this from my wife. In part this is because I feel like I don’t have the tools to raise it in a way where I’m confident we can deal with it constructively. And the last thing I want is to be coercive. Sitting on the outside looking in, I would have to say I’m depressed. We have a session on Wednesday with the therapist again. I think I may need a separate solo session with him as well. Was the help you were seeking from church concerning sexlessness? Or something else? Kind of you to drop by the papists for her sake. Unsolicited advice:
Embrace the therapy to encourage affection. Expect it to fail, but do not convey your skepticism, nor express anger at it stopping short of satisfactory intimacy. This is the best chance for sexful marriage within your Christian beliefs.... To explain this attempt to reconcile your faith with your plight without leading you towards impressions we have more in common than we do, I am a Arian Yahvist... Thanks so much for your kind response. Let me clear up what seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here. My wife was raised Catholic, in the Catholic education system. I mention it because she seems to have absorbed some of the sterotypical attitudes towards some aspects of sexual behaviour and exploration such as masturbation. She no longer subscribes to Catholic doctrine at all. The churches we both go to are from the of same reformed Protestant denomination in our city. You could say that our understanding of the Bible has most in common with the Calvinist school of thought. With regard to 1 Corinthians 7, she simply hasn't thought her position through, but there is also a history of default stubbornness on her part. She is on the Parish Council - aka church eldership. One option I have been considering is - if progress ceases - to share with the new minister the problems we have been suffering, her intransigence on the issue, and to obtain his view on what my options are. It is my view that it would not be appropriate for her to continue in that eldership position when she is actively sabotaging her second-most important relationship and putting her partner in an untenable position, if indeed she digs in on her intransigence. I would be putting that in his and another elder's lap to deal with. However, this is the nuclear option, to create some degree of accountability when all hope of voluntary reconciliation has been lost. My decision to leave and replant myself elsewhere sprang from a conversation in the car on the way back from a movie catchup with the then-senior minister. We got to talking about our relationships and i mentioned the issue of our extended celibacy. He exclaimed "Oh, that's sin!" (Duh! As if I didnt know that, and as if it is my choice!) The conversation seemed to immediately change direction. We never got back to it. That episode stripped the shine off my impressions of the man. Over the next year or two my irritation with his bombastic pomposity grew past my ability to tolerate it. Long story short, a lot of the core members of that church also left, and it became a struggling shell of its former self. The new minister seems to be a good guy, but he faces a major slog to rebuild the congregation to sustainability. Tonight my wife was unusually affectionate and touchy-feely. I have been working through documenting the issues I had put to one side and suppressed from my memory, how they make me feel, and how I feel about this recent incident at the last counselling session. She was up early this morning and I had an "oh, shit" moment when I saw my laptop was unfortunately still on, with the document on display. It was the last thing I was working on before bed and that was computer has an annoying habit of waking up from sleep mode. I don;t know whether she read any of it; I have not asked, but it may explain a few things over recent days, but my persistence with visiting her congregation and being personable might also be a explanation. Tonight she told me that she really appreciates me and she would likely be dead from drug overdose somewhere if not for finding me. I was really emotional, teared up, and coudn't respond, but I will try to sit own and unpack that later tonight (it's now the small hours of the morning again here).
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Post by revolutionarycanary on Oct 9, 2023 9:00:51 GMT -5
I, too, am a Christian, and have a blog dealing with sexless marriage, divorce, etc., from a Christian perspective. The url is in my tag line, below. I've had a quick scan of the subject headings and it looks like you've dealt with it in considerable depth. Seeing the word "exegesis" is encouraging. Thankyou.
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 9, 2023 10:57:38 GMT -5
quote from revolutionarycanary: "Please understand I'm not making any judgements on anyone else here who doesn't hold our worldview with this next statement. I'm just beyond upset that it seems her solution to getting off the hook of following St Paul's guidance on intimacy is to tip me out of the frying pan into the fire, putting the choice on me of either giving up hope on intimacy or leaving the marriage to thus become an adulterer.
That was a month ago, and I've been in a pretty grim place since. I’ve been very emotional, and am unable to concentrate to the point where it's affecting my work. There has been suicide ideation at times.
I’ve been hiding all this from my wife. In part this is because I feel like I don’t have the tools to raise it in a way where I’m confident we can deal with it constructively. And the last thing I want is to be coercive. Sitting on the ourside looking in, I would have to say I’m depressed.
We have a session on Wednesday with the therapist again. I think I may need a separate solo session with him as well."
Do you not think hiding your feelings / thoughts on this with her is a part of the problem? When you talk about tools and ways to talk constructively ..... honestly phrasing items helps but in the big picture even "Professional" instruction is not needed to get the truth out in open... waiting for the Right moment / The Right words / the Right anything is procrastination....and not helping your depression issue that is effecting your work and such.
I agree that divorce and even seeking something else are NOT Good choices ..... but hiding from the fact intimacy is IMPORTANT is also a bad choice.
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Post by revolutionarycanary on Oct 9, 2023 17:43:05 GMT -5
"Do you not think hiding your feelings / thoughts on this with her is a part of the problem?"
You are right of course. Avoidant behaviour around difficult matters is a typical issue for people like me with ADHD. However, communication is a two-way street, and the speaker has to be cognizant of how the message will be received. She has a HUGE amount of baggage around receiving criticism and feeling attacked because of her father "shoulding all over her" (he just can't help himself and the constant drip of it so destructive. Example: telling my ditzy blonde SIL that she "should have gone to university"). The sessions with the therapist have helped my wife unpack the impact and feel less threatened, although naturally it continues to be a work in progress.
I haven't been hiding my feelings on how important intimacy is. An episode and the aftermath where she upped and ran away when I simply laid down beside her in bed in her room to cuddle while she watched a show on her laptop was the catalyst for seeking out and engaging the therapist.
It's just been these last few weeks since the last session and the flat spin into which it sent me. She knows that a hard no on resuming intimacy is a dealbreaker. I cannot be with her if that is her final decision. It would be too painful.
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Post by csl on Oct 10, 2023 6:00:12 GMT -5
I, too, am a Christian, and have a blog dealing with sexless marriage, divorce, etc., from a Christian perspective. The url is in my tag line, below. I've had a quick scan of the subject headings and it looks like you've dealt with it in considerable depth. Seeing the word "exegesis" is encouraging. Thankyou. Of all the words to derive encouragement. I tried to be thorough, even up to and beyond your "nuclear option" of going public.
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