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Post by scrimshaw on Apr 17, 2016 18:22:56 GMT -5
I was undecided where to put this, but since the main Sexless Marriage Issues topic is more about refusal, this seems the place. Some of you from EP know my story ... My wife is a 10-year breast cancer warrior*, and had her ovaries removed as part of her hysterectomy** 3 years prior to her diagnosis. She had the hysterectomy because she had been spotting or worse for several months, due to fairly severe endomitriosis. So as you might imagine, our sex life had been dwindling significantly prior to her hysterectomy, and sadly didn't recover much after the hysterectomy. Then the breast cancer at age 42. Her cancer was progesterone and estrogen positive, and was discovered on a mammogram before it could be felt (stage 0). That all has the positive of being relatively "easy" to remove the cancer with clear margins. She had radiation after the lumpectomy but no chemo. One of the negatives is, she can never again have hormones. So with no ovaries and no hormones, her physical sex drive is zero. For a while we able to still have occasional intercourse, but over time it became more and more painful for her, and naturally longer and longer between times. The last time we had sex was over 6 years ago, and I felt like crap because I could see the pain in her face even though she denied it. Some time after that she had a repetitive stress injury to her back from work, and spent almost a year pretty much living on the couch due to the pain from that. I haven't been at all perfect. I had a physical affair while she was still laid up with her back injury, and a couple years ago had an online affair. We came very, very close to divorce after the online affair was discovered, I had moved out of our bedroom, and had started to look for a room to rent. But at what was supposed to be our final "wrap up" session with our couples counselor, she said she really, really, wanted to give it one more try. And so I agreed. I've already been asked tens of times, what about anal or oral. Well, before we were married she made it clear that anal and oral were off the table. I do understand the no anal thing, and she regularly gags herself brushing her teeth, so I sort of understand the no oral thing (I did go down on her regularly when we were having sex). But, that leaves me with basically handjobs, and we've drifted so far apart on intimacy that even getting there is a long road. About the same time as my online affair, my wife's mother had a recurrence of breast cancer. My wife had already done the genetic testing and tested negative for all known (at the time) markers, but it sufficiently spooked my wife that she decided to have a bilateral prophylactic mastectomy. There were complications from that (radiated skin didn't play nice) and we've had to go back and have the radiated side re-done a couple times. And at her last surgery (she still has one or two to go, but she wants to heal up for a year or so), they discovered nodules on her thyroid. We've had one go at a biopsy for those, but the doctor fouled that up and nicked a blood vessel, so they didn't get it done. Next try with a different doctor at a different hospital is maybe sometime in May, have to meet with the doctor first of course. She has a noticeably higher risk of thyroid cancer due to the radiation from her breast cancer, although it's by no means certain. Most people have non-cancerous thyroid nodules by the time they are 60, and virtually everyone will have them by age 70. All of that doesn't really ease my mind though. My wife is taking some positive steps. She is seeing a pelvic floor therapist, and also using dilators to try to stretch the vaginal muscles and get more blood flow to hopefully thicken the vaginal wall tissue. Still, I just can't seem to be hopeful about it at all. Perhaps it's a defense mechanism, if I get hopeful and then she still isn't able, I imagine it would be far harder on me than if I figure it's not really likely and she isn't able. Perhaps it's because on the website of a new couples therapist she wants to go to, the therapist is rather clear that sometimes sex is simply not possible after cancer.  * "warrior" because particularly with breast cancer, it's far more than just if you make it 5 years, you've "survived" it. Life NEVER goes back to what you though was "normal" before, and the danger of metastasis is real and ever-present. Also, there are those in the breast cancer community who strongly dislike the term "survivor" because they feel it stigmatized the women who don't survive. I can't say I agree with that rationale, but since I kinda like "warrior" better anyways, I'll go with that. ** my OCD demands that I explain that "hysterectomy" only refers to removal of the uterus. It can be done with or without removal of the ovaries. Removal of the ovaries is called an "oophorectomy" and removal of ovaries and fallopian tubes is a "salpingo-oophorectomy". So what my wife had was a "sub-total hysterectomy with bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy". "Sub-total" because they left her cervix, a "total" hysterectomy also removes the cervix. Yes, I've learned WAY too much about female anatomy along this journey. Women can also have salpingo-oophorectomy without a hysterectomy, particularly if it's unilateral (only on one side). |
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Post by JMX on Apr 17, 2016 18:40:43 GMT -5
Goodness. Scrimshaw, what a sad story. You all are fighting multiple cancers and it does sound as if she is trying. That would be a truly tough spot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 18:53:52 GMT -5
I was undecided where to put this, but since the main Sexless Marriage Issues topic is more about refusal, this seems the place. Some of you from EP know my story ... My wife is a 10-year breast cancer warrior*, and had her ovaries removed as part of her hysterectomy** 3 years prior to her diagnosis. She had the hysterectomy because she had been spotting or worse for several months, due to fairly severe endomitriosis. So as you might imagine, our sex life had been dwindling significantly prior to her hysterectomy, and sadly didn't recover much after the hysterectomy. Then the breast cancer at age 42. Her cancer was progesterone and estrogen positive, and was discovered on a mammogram before it could be felt (stage 0). That all has the positive of being relatively "easy" to remove the cancer with clear margins. She had radiation after the lumpectomy but no chemo. One of the negatives is, she can never again have hormones. So with no ovaries and no hormones, her physical sex drive is zero. For a while we able to still have occasional intercourse, but over time it became more and more painful for her, and naturally longer and longer between times. The last time we had sex was over 6 years ago, and I felt like crap because I could see the pain in her face even though she denied it. Some time after that she had a repetitive stress injury to her back from work, and spent almost a year pretty much living on the couch due to the pain from that. I haven't been at all perfect. I had a physical affair while she was still laid up with her back injury, and a couple years ago had an online affair. We came very, very close to divorce after the online affair was discovered, I had moved out of our bedroom, and had started to look for a room to rent. But at what was supposed to be our final "wrap up" session with our couples counselor, she said she really, really, wanted to give it one more try. And so I agreed. I've already been asked tens of times, what about anal or oral. Well, before we were married she made it clear that anal and oral were off the table. I do understand the no anal thing, and she regularly gags herself brushing her teeth, so I sort of understand the no oral thing (I did go down on her regularly when we were having sex). But, that leaves me with basically handjobs, and we've drifted so far apart on intimacy that even getting there is a long road. About the same time as my online affair, my wife's mother had a recurrence of breast cancer. My wife had already done the genetic testing and tested negative for all known (at the time) markers, but it sufficiently spooked my wife that she decided to have a bilateral prophylactic mastectomy. There were complications from that (radiated skin didn't play nice) and we've had to go back and have the radiated side re-done a couple times. And at her last surgery (she still has one or two to go, but she wants to heal up for a year or so), they discovered nodules on her thyroid. We've had one go at a biopsy for those, but the doctor fouled that up and nicked a blood vessel, so they didn't get it done. Next try with a different doctor at a different hospital is maybe sometime in May, have to meet with the doctor first of course. She has a noticeably higher risk of thyroid cancer due to the radiation from her breast cancer, although it's by no means certain. Most people have non-cancerous thyroid nodules by the time they are 60, and virtually everyone will have them by age 70. All of that doesn't really ease my mind though. My wife is taking some positive steps. She is seeing a pelvic floor therapist, and also using dilators to try to stretch the vaginal muscles and get more blood flow to hopefully thicken the vaginal wall tissue. Still, I just can't seem to be hopeful about it at all. Perhaps it's a defense mechanism, if I get hopeful and then she still isn't able, I imagine it would be far harder on me than if I figure it's not really likely and she isn't able. Perhaps it's because on the website of a new couples therapist she wants to go to, the therapist is rather clear that sometimes sex is simply not possible after cancer. * "warrior" because particularly with breast cancer, it's far more than just if you make it 5 years, you've "survived" it. Life NEVER goes back to what you though was "normal" before, and the danger of metastasis is real and ever-present. Also, there are those in the breast cancer community who strongly dislike the term "survivor" because they feel it stigmatized the women who don't survive. I can't say I agree with that rationale, but since I kinda like "warrior" better anyways, I'll go with that. ** my OCD demands that I explain that "hysterectomy" only refers to removal of the uterus. It can be done with or without removal of the ovaries. Removal of the ovaries is called an "oophorectomy" and removal of ovaries and fallopian tubes is a "salpingo-oophorectomy". So what my wife had was a "sub-total hysterectomy with bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy". "Sub-total" because they left her cervix, a "total" hysterectomy also removes the cervix. Yes, I've learned WAY too much about female anatomy along this journey. Women can also have salpingo-oophorectomy without a hysterectomy, particularly if it's unilateral (only on one side). You and your wife have been through some rough stuff. And it sounds like you all get past one medical issue only to hit another soon after. Kudos to you for staying by her. And kudos to her for apparently being willing to try to get a sex life going again. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Apr 17, 2016 19:04:09 GMT -5
Goodness. Scrimshaw, what a sad story. You all are fighting multiple cancers and it does sound as if she is trying. That would be a truly tough spot. It is mentally very taxing. I miss sex so very much. I want to throw up my hands and leave. But I don't want to leave her in the middle of so many issues. It's a circular problem that makes my head hurt even trying to think about it. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 17, 2016 19:23:55 GMT -5
Scrimshaw, I am so sorry, this is awful for both of you. You said one thing above that stood out for me, which was 'we've drifted so far apart on intimacy that even getting there is a long road'. Do you still kiss, cuddle, touch each other etc. much? If not I wonder whether that might be a good place to start rebuilding things, rather than going straight for the sex. I know it sounds a bit like trying scented candles, and I don't know enough of your story to know whether that might still be useful, so shoot me down if you think things are way too far gone for that. But I wonder whether focusing mostly on physical intimacy and then seeing what can grow out of that might be your most productive way forwards. (Partly on the grounds that if she no longer wants the physical intimacy at all then your chances of regaining a sex life are minimal at best.)
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Post by scrimshaw on Apr 17, 2016 19:24:24 GMT -5
You and your wife have been through some rough stuff. And it sounds like you all get past one medical issue only to hit another soon after. Kudos to you for staying by her. And kudos to her for apparently being willing to try to get a sex life going again. We have. Right now it just feels like I will be celibate the rest of my life, and I'm having a really hard time dealing with that. I know she's trying, but I also can't help but feel that it's all for naught. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Apr 17, 2016 19:32:28 GMT -5
Scrimshaw, I am so sorry, this is awful for both of you. You said one thing above that stood out for me, which was 'we've drifted so far apart on intimacy that even getting there is a long road'. Do you still kiss, cuddle, touch each other etc. much? If not I wonder whether that might be a good place to start rebuilding things, rather than going straight for the sex. I know it sounds a bit like trying scented candles, and I don't know enough of your story to know whether that might still be useful, so shoot me down if you think things are way too far gone for that. But I wonder whether focusing mostly on physical intimacy and then seeing what can grow out of that might be your most productive way forwards. (Partly on the grounds that if she no longer wants the physical intimacy at all then your chances of regaining a sex life are minimal at best.) No, it's a good point, and I probably should have talked about it, but to be honest sometimes just typing it all out is draining. Yes, we very much still kiss, cuddle, hold hands, walk arm-in-arm, etc. We have a tandem bike we ride together (note that tandems are often called 'divorce bikes'), and we binge watch stuff on Netflix together.  Our marriage is quite unlike most "sexless marriages". As I've said to a couple people, and please understand this is not at all judgmental, but for the overwhelming majority of people in sexless marriages, the fact that their marriage is sexless is actually the least of their problems. The marriages as they describe them are dysfunctional, toxic, and in some cases borderline or actually abusive. That's not my marriage. Our dysfunction is honestly only around sex. We sleep in the same bed. I kiss her goodmorning and goodnight every day. We communicate well about everything except sex, and in that area we both kinda shut down. Now, I do think that it's really important that people in toxic relationships have a good safe place to vent and commiserate and decide if they need to leave. The fact their marriages are also sexless is a symptom, rather than the actual problem in the marriage. In my case, the problem is that she is facing medical issues that make intercourse impossible, and we both suffer enough depression that talking about it is extremely difficult for us. I've avoided this forum until now because I don't feel like I really fit in to the ILIASM community as it is. That's not a bad thing, it's just how it is. But maybe there's a couple other people out their facing similar issues. |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 17, 2016 20:41:11 GMT -5
I've avoided this forum until now because I don't feel like I really fit in to the ILIASM community as it is. That's not a bad thing, it's just how it is. But maybe there's a couple other people out their facing similar issues. Thank you for the detailed description, you are definitely in a difficult spot. I, for one, would really value your input here because while a lot of us are dealing with dysfunctional relationships a big part of being in a SM is what it does to you individually. How do you deal with your own needs, desires, expectations, etc. What happens when you get your hopes up and then find them dashed again. What is the bottom line for each of us? And stuff like that is just fucking hard whatever the root cause might be. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 21:47:19 GMT -5
I was good friends with a person on EP who is in a very similar situation to yours. He and his wife actually get along and are supportive of each other in every way except sexually. She is also dealing with cancer - the scary "this could kill you" kind - and like you, he is right beside her, helping and supporting her because he loves her. I do think your type of situation is rare in a SM - you are right that for most of us, the sexlessness is a symptom of other issues. But just because your situation is less common than others here doesn't mean you don't belong. You are facing the same frustrations and loneliness that all of us deal with, and in some ways it's harder because you can't even get angry with your situation without seeming like a heartless jerk. I'm incredibly sorry for what you're going through and I hope you and your wife are able to find some way to work through this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 22:17:52 GMT -5
Scrimshaw - you and your wife are dealing with one of the cruelest situations fate could have handed you.
Your situation is so different than any of the others I've seen, because it looks to me like neither one of you is willfully hurting the other one. I see no selfishness here - which is rare.
I wish you didn't feel like you "don't belong." IMHO, you very much belong. Because a lot of us came to the group in the first place, the way you still are - loving our mate and hoping for a miracle that would make things the way they used to be.
And I'd like to see you stay with us, because a lot of us care about you, wish we could help in some way - and want to keep up with how you are doing, and be there for you.
You are loved and cared for. You are among friends. Never doubt that.
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Post by tamara68 on Apr 18, 2016 2:48:20 GMT -5
Scrimshaw, I definitely think you belong here. It doesn't really matter on how we end up in a sexless marriage. We all struggle with it. And there couldn't be a better community to vent and to find support than here.
I very much value the things you have written on EP and I am convinced the others here feel the same.
Wishing you the best!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 14:24:19 GMT -5
Well, it is horrible that she has cancer. However, that is no reason for her to expect you to live without sex forever. But at least she is trying, so that is something. Has the doctor given any time frame for her to maybe be able to fuck? Has she considered this therapy? www.monalisatouch.com |
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mathdoll
Junior Member
The light is getting brighter........
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Post by mathdoll on Apr 18, 2016 15:33:03 GMT -5
My marriage was also wonderful in every other respect. In the end though I met someone else.
I was the one with the serious medical issues and afterward some suggested that maybe that was part of the reason we were sexless. He treated me as a piece of delicate china and was so caring. We didn't have sex before my diagnosis though and I think that it became just another excuse.
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 18, 2016 15:34:49 GMT -5
And at her last surgery (she still has one or two to go, but she wants to heal up for a year or so), they discovered nodules on her thyroid. We've had one go at a biopsy for those, but the doctor fouled that up and nicked a blood vessel, so they didn't get it done. Next try with a different doctor at a different hospital is maybe sometime in May, have to meet with the doctor first of course. She has a noticeably higher risk of thyroid cancer due to the radiation from her breast cancer, although it's by no means certain. Most people have non-cancerous thyroid nodules by the time they are 60, and virtually everyone will have them by age 70. All of that doesn't really ease my mind though. Holy crap, your wife has been through the grinder. I'm sure you're long past being tired of all the medical discussions, but some pointers from someone who's been there on the thyroid front... Needle biopsy sucks, as she probably knows by now. Also, it can only confirm cancer, but can't guarantee the lack thereof. To the degree that endocrinologists debate whether they should even be done, or just go straight to surgery. During the surgery, an experienced surgeon can tell visually if the odds of cancer are high or low. And they can pull a more definitive sample and have the lab analyze it while you're still on the table. If the nodules aren't causing her a physical problem and no cancer appears present on the table, I'd suggest agreeing that the surgeon stops the procedure. Surgeons will default to extracting both sides of the thyroid. This makes sense if cancer is present; if not, it's for their convenience to avoid another procedure. But their convenience translates to a lifetime dependency on hormone replacements. I had one side removed because the nodules had grown enough to start choking my throat (otherwise, nodules are benign); I had to argue to get them to leave the other side in (if they didn't find cancer) and let me play the odds of a second procedure. I'm glad I did. Years later, my levels are still normal with no meds. Aesthetically, the procedure is done with a small incision in the crease of the neck, which heals to be imperceptible later. Incidentally, PSA for the bystanders here... When you get x-rays at the dentist, insist on the neck shield. They all have it, but they don't offer it by default. I strongly suspect that my thyroid problem was the result of being too diligent about dental care over the years. Ironic. |
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Post by scrimshaw on Apr 20, 2016 1:09:49 GMT -5
Well, it is horrible that she has cancer. However, that is no reason for her to expect you to live without sex forever. But at least she is trying, so that is something. Has the doctor given any time frame for her to maybe be able to fuck? Has she considered this therapy? www.monalisatouch.comMona Lisa Touch is to say the least controversial, at least in the breast cancer community. We're aware of it, and we agree it's not worth the unknowns, particularly given the financial commitment involved. First and foremost no studies have been done on women with dyspareunia related to breast cancer. Additionally, none of the few studies, all of which were performed by the manufacturers themselves, were particularly rigorous. None compared against a placebo/sham laser treatment, all had very small and self-selected sample sets (12 to 50 postmenopausal women with a high desire to resume a normal sex life), there was no long-term follow-up (studies ended at 12 weeks), there was no comparison to effectiveness as compared to other treatments, in fact, there wasn't even any patient monitoring to see if they were using other treatments concurrently. With no long-term follow-up, the long-term safety is an open question. The bar to get a device approved by the FDA is much lower than for a medication, and in this case, the FDA approval is only for a very narrow use, despite them being marketed outside the U.S. for an array of issues, including incontinence, for which there is no published data. |
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