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Post by GeekGoddess on Dec 6, 2016 10:19:43 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute. So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out. I do blame social shaming for this attitude. It is not bad to be a sexual person but I was taught to believe so. That it was naughty. That I was slutty. I am not. I have had lots of partners who liked it to be naughty. It wasn't until Loverman, & chatters on EP, that I learned what my own adult attitude is about sex & sexuality. Somehow before I always thought self-expression (sexually) was for others. I'm all about gay rights are human rights- gender equality at work w/titles & pay - but somehow I still did not understand the ways that I gave away my own freedoms b/c I accepted shame for a natural act. I'm done with it (the shame). If it comes up in conversation, I know speak up as much as I can to tell people sex isn't dirty. Don't act like it's bad. I have seen a few quiet faces look at me gratefully for these comments. I think they are like I used to be - wanting, feeling bad for wanting, unable to share our true spirit because when we try to, society calls us pervs. "All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. If a person thinks life is THAT un-subtle, I don't want them in my circle. Sorry for such a long rant! It struck a chord, I guess. :-) |
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 6, 2016 10:19:50 GMT -5
I heard similar words from my therapist, "you went above and beyond to try to save your marriage, your wife put forth zero effort." Then there was, " your wife is asexual, I predict she will never again want another man". Very helpful for me from someone who worked with both of us separate, and together, and all six of the kids. I am glad that you found a therapist of some real benefit. If I may ask, was it a difficult search? I got lucky. My wife found him. He is a psychologist who does child therapy. We needed him for our adopted son, and his problems. The therapist said, "the kids seem happy, it's you two that need to work on the marriage." I will say that the beginning was like many complain about, " latching onto the theory that I need to give more, try harder, co-operate more, be the leader by enforcing rules more, be the spiritual leader." My therapist has been divorced twice. Married to a controller. His job was to bring us to a place were our grievances could be aired. I learned so much from this sight about that. I wrote things down and read off her quotes. Her nothing responses, or blame shifting, led to a conclusion of, "you are both going to point fingers at each other, getting no where. I said' then we are done, if I can't speak the truth, and expose what happens than it's no longer helpful." after that we met separately. I believe he wanted me to reach my own conclusions. Honestly, shamefully, I couldn't. To many years of self denial, accepting rejection. The best thing he did for me, (like a friend would do) is tell me off the record, so to speak, of my wives behavior verses mine. In fact we help each other. I bring him books and quotes from web sites. It helps both of us. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Dec 6, 2016 10:21:39 GMT -5
Me: yes, my self-worth is very tied to my sex life, gender identity, & ability to express the sexual part of my spirit & personality. I am a little sorry that when I was younger, I used to think sex was "extra" & a bonus. It is not. Living sexless, I have learned just how deeply I need an outlet for (& feedback from) my sexual nature. This is not shallow. But it is new information for me. And maybe for my partner. Sex is not a PS on a relationship. It's an integral quarter (as in 4 parts: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual). Sex is a thread through all 4 parts if I have/find the relationship that's really right for me. I didn't know this before & hide it from my Ex. I just didn't KNOW until more recently. I am a sexual person and I decline to accept any shame for that attribute. That is beautifully stated. I buried all of this (ie, my true self) for almost 30 years. I knew better, yet days become weeks become years until one day we are dead. I don't want to deal with this prison any longer. Freedom! Exactly my experience too! The air is even sweeter outside the prison. Even alone, I'm not as lonely as when I was in the darkest periods of the SM. Stay strong! |
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 10:29:13 GMT -5
"All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. It might have been true. Lock a person in a room and withhold food for 2 weeks and guess what they can't stop thinking about? Lock a person in a sexless marriage for 10 years and... |
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Post by wom360 on Dec 6, 2016 10:33:11 GMT -5
cagedtiger, you are one tolerant dude. I don't know how or why you're holding out for January. And then, just to start the process, not finish it. Mind you, I live in a glass house so I'm not throwing rocks, but your situation is far from subtle... Christmas time means she's spending money like a drunk sailor in Thailand- she actually ran our bank account dry last week, which should never, ever happen. So, I'll wait until the holidays are finished. Plus, she's in a wedding for a good friend and coworker over that time period, and i don't want to ruin that for her and everybody else. Still suppressing your needs for others. Classic "nice guy". In January it'll be something else unfortunately. And if you ever actually pull the trigger you'll be surprised and hurt that you get no credit for suppressing your needs until just the right moment. Covert contracts, codependency. I'm hopeful that you can do it in January, but also pretty skeptical. I really wonder what magical set of circumstances will make it ok to proceed. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:34:58 GMT -5
"All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. It might have been true. Lock a person in a room and withhold food for 2 weeks and guess what they can't stop thinking about? Lock a person in a sexless marriage for 10 years and... Ok, here's the one I get regularly, especially now as the discussions are reduced to her justifying the forced celibacy: "the sex thing is all about you. It doesn't feel like it is about a spiritual/emotional connection." Yeah. It's all about me. Cause I am not capable of taking matters into my own hands. My sexual relationship with myself is pretty ok. But of course she thinks that I am being selfish with that as well. Sure. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Dec 6, 2016 10:41:22 GMT -5
So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out. I do blame social shaming for this attitude. It is not bad to be a sexual person but I was taught to believe so. That it was naughty. That I was slutty. I am not. I have had lots of partners who liked it to be naughty. It wasn't until Loverman, & chatters on EP, that I learned what my own adult attitude is about sex & sexuality. Somehow before I always thought self-expression (sexually) was for others. I'm all about gay rights are human rights- gender equality at work w/titles & pay - but somehow I still did not understand the ways that I gave away my own freedoms b/c I accepted shame for a natural act. I'm done with it (the shame). If it comes up in conversation, I know speak up as much as I can to tell people sex isn't dirty. Don't act like it's bad. I have seen a few quiet faces look at me gratefully for these comments. I think they are like I used to be - wanting, feeling bad for wanting, unable to share our true spirit because when we try to, society calls us pervs. "All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. If a person thinks life is THAT un-subtle, I don't want them in my circle. Sorry for such a long rant! It struck a chord, I guess. :-) This resonates with me, because I seriously think this is a lot of her problem- thank you, good old fashioned Baptist Guilt. Aside from her 7 years of happy celibacy, fairly early on in our relationship she asked me what my number was. I told her, and the strength of her negative reaction honestly surprised me. The fact that she told her best friend about it annoyed me, and that she said it "disgusted her" probably should have given me much, much more pause. Every other woman I've dated has been much more like you, @geekgoddess, in terms of not feeling ashamed or dirty when it came to sex, and were much more assertive in that respect. I guess part of me believed it was just a "phase" I could bring her out of. Well, lesson learned there. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:47:27 GMT -5
So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out. I do blame social shaming for this attitude. It is not bad to be a sexual person but I was taught to believe so. That it was naughty. That I was slutty. I am not. I have had lots of partners who liked it to be naughty. It wasn't until Loverman, & chatters on EP, that I learned what my own adult attitude is about sex & sexuality. Somehow before I always thought self-expression (sexually) was for others. I'm all about gay rights are human rights- gender equality at work w/titles & pay - but somehow I still did not understand the ways that I gave away my own freedoms b/c I accepted shame for a natural act. I'm done with it (the shame). If it comes up in conversation, I know speak up as much as I can to tell people sex isn't dirty. Don't act like it's bad. I have seen a few quiet faces look at me gratefully for these comments. I think they are like I used to be - wanting, feeling bad for wanting, unable to share our true spirit because when we try to, society calls us pervs. "All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. If a person thinks life is THAT un-subtle, I don't want them in my circle. Sorry for such a long rant! It struck a chord, I guess. :-) Funny. I have never been ashamed of my sexuality, nor have I ever felt that it was dirty, abnormal, shady, etc. However, i have been delusional enough to think that I could change to attitude and opinion of someone who claimed to love me. As has been stated, live and learn. |
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 10:47:44 GMT -5
I do blame social shaming for this attitude. It is not bad to be a sexual person but I was taught to believe so. That it was naughty. That I was slutty. I am not. I have had lots of partners who liked it to be naughty. It wasn't until Loverman, & chatters on EP, that I learned what my own adult attitude is about sex & sexuality. Somehow before I always thought self-expression (sexually) was for others. I'm all about gay rights are human rights- gender equality at work w/titles & pay - but somehow I still did not understand the ways that I gave away my own freedoms b/c I accepted shame for a natural act. I'm done with it (the shame). If it comes up in conversation, I know speak up as much as I can to tell people sex isn't dirty. Don't act like it's bad. I have seen a few quiet faces look at me gratefully for these comments. I think they are like I used to be - wanting, feeling bad for wanting, unable to share our true spirit because when we try to, society calls us pervs. "All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. If a person thinks life is THAT un-subtle, I don't want them in my circle. Sorry for such a long rant! It struck a chord, I guess. :-) This resonates with me, because I seriously think this is a lot of her problem- thank you, good old fashioned Baptist Guilt. Aside from her 7 years of happy celibacy, fairly early on in our relationship she asked me what my number was. I told her, and the strength of her negative reaction honestly surprised me. The fact that she told her best friend about it annoyed me, and that she said it "disgusted her" probably should have given me much, much more pause. Every other woman I've dated has been much more like you, @geekgoddess, in terms of not feeling ashamed or dirty when it came to sex, and were much more assertive in that respect. I guess part of me believed it was just a "phase" I could bring her out of. Well, lesson learned there. I've said it before, cagedtiger, no one here needs a Mulligan more than you do. Please take it. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Dec 6, 2016 10:48:59 GMT -5
This resonates with me, because I seriously think this is a lot of her problem- thank you, good old fashioned Baptist Guilt. Aside from her 7 years of happy celibacy, fairly early on in our relationship she asked me what my number was. I told her, and the strength of her negative reaction honestly surprised me. The fact that she told her best friend about it annoyed me, and that she said it "disgusted her" probably should have given me much, much more pause. Every other woman I've dated has been much more like you, @geekgoddess, in terms of not feeling ashamed or dirty when it came to sex, and were much more assertive in that respect. I guess part of me believed it was just a "phase" I could bring her out of. Well, lesson learned there. I've said it before, cagedtiger, no one here needs a Mulligan more than you do. Please take it. Echoed: Please Take It. |
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Post by beachguy on Dec 6, 2016 10:59:08 GMT -5
So true. If I had fully understood this I would have been out of my marriage within 90 days of the wedding. And I actually came to that decision at that time but chickened out. I do blame social shaming for this attitude. It is not bad to be a sexual person but I was taught to believe so. That it was naughty. That I was slutty. I am not. I have had lots of partners who liked it to be naughty. It wasn't until Loverman, & chatters on EP, that I learned what my own adult attitude is about sex & sexuality. Somehow before I always thought self-expression (sexually) was for others. I'm all about gay rights are human rights- gender equality at work w/titles & pay - but somehow I still did not understand the ways that I gave away my own freedoms b/c I accepted shame for a natural act. I'm done with it (the shame). If it comes up in conversation, I know speak up as much as I can to tell people sex isn't dirty. Don't act like it's bad. I have seen a few quiet faces look at me gratefully for these comments. I think they are like I used to be - wanting, feeling bad for wanting, unable to share our true spirit because when we try to, society calls us pervs. "All you ever think about" - that whole set of comments....always/never statements are a mischaracterization usually used for mental abuse in the form of gaslighting. If a person thinks life is THAT un-subtle, I don't want them in my circle. Sorry for such a long rant! It struck a chord, I guess. :-) I don't blame social shaming. We ALL got similarly shamed, to some degree or another. Some of us came out the other end still liking and wanting and needing sex. Others did not. Is social shaming just another excuse to hide the underlying reason (inherent asexuality)  |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Dec 6, 2016 12:38:13 GMT -5
Well - about social shame - many people have enough self-confidence to understand their own spirit and to "cast off" side remarks that don't apply or whatever. I was a person who so often looks outside myself for approval from others "that I'm OK" and so I was basically denying my own spirit and...I couldn't get rid of my desire for sex, so mostly "hid" it more than I needed to AND felt bad over that. I've had a lot of different phases in sex life and in acceptance of the varying landscapes.
One thing that is "my part" is whether I accept someone else's judgment of me. While I did a good job usually not completely taking someone else's opinion of me - it was like I had a sneaking suspicion that all other humans are more well adjusted than me and I'm secretly a sick bastard posing as a grown up. I don't know how to say it. Sober now - I understand a lot more of MY OWN psychology than I ever did before. I understand that being accountable only means accountable to my own sense of right & wrong. I never "got that" before.
I don't know why life doesn't affect everyone the same way - but for me - it had me broken and I believed that if I wanted "the best" then I was just being greedy. Mine was Catholic guilt rather than Baptist. My Ex's was Jewish guilt. Source/flavor doesn't matter as much. The way it makes us feel "unworthy of the good life" seemed to be my hang up. I no longer believe I'm not inherently worthy. I choose to believe that I am worthy of a very fulfilling romance, with a fun sex life and with acceptance of masturbating if we both aren't into the deed itself. The acceptance of each other - - this is what I now know I need to have.
One thing I had never understood before EP is about wanting a partner vs needing a partner. I had been so "icky" in myself before, that I needed that partner to say "you're fine" - and this is fundamentally unhealthy (for me). My self-acceptance cannot be bought with someone else's opinion and that is what I had looked for. Now I accept me. And that will help me with knowing my right partner but it also means that I don't NEED one. I would like one. It would be great. But I can get along just fine without, too.
It is better (for me) to be alone than to be in a dysfunctional relationship. I'm healthier single and alone than I've ever been before in my life.
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Post by eternaloptimism on Dec 6, 2016 15:25:11 GMT -5
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Post by Pinkberry on Dec 7, 2016 1:27:55 GMT -5
"I feel like instead of her fighting to make this marriage work, she's fighting to keep me around in this little comfortable bubble that she imagines to be a marriage."
My ex actually said as much to me when I was still in. It was one of those surreal moments where you just stare in disbelief. You wonder if there are cameras and someone will jump out and say it is all a big, horrible joke. Except it's not a joke, it's just horrible.
I'm happy for you that you are coming to some concrete conclusions that will make your life easier. Of course, the way out is not easy. I'll be thinking good thoughts for you.
BTW, I'm not entirely sure I buy the guilt thing when it comes to refusers. Catholics have a pretty solid line on guilt. I also grew up in an area that was about 1/3 Jewish and they know guilt too. Nobody was confused about marriage being the sexual playground. That was sort of the pinnacle, as considered by teens in the 80s. You play it nice when you are a kid, then you get married and you can do whatever you want because you're married. The marriage sex is the carrot. I've never once in my life heard a priest, pastor, or Rabbi suggest that sex within a marriage was shameful in any way. I just don't see the relationship.
Maybe I am too narrow minded and people get messed up in the head over the guilt from before marriage. Maybe. In any case, you need to find someone who won't feel guilty about sex and isn't afraid to tell you about their likes and dislikes, including preferred frequency.
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Post by beachguy on Dec 7, 2016 12:08:42 GMT -5
More thoughts about religious/social shaming... everyone's deal is different, or at least they can be roughly binned into different classes. But in my case, and many, many other cases here, the sex was fine or at least "acceptable" BEFORE marriage, and then dried up either IMMEDIATELY AFTER MARRIAGE or in the not too distant future.
What is the fundamental teaching of all religions? No premarital sex. Some religions have some strange ideas about marital sex, but the stranger those ideas, the more forceful the message of NO PREMARITAL SEX. The same is true of all societal "slut shaming". Slut shaming is about premarital (or post marital) promiscuity, not what goes on in the marital bedroom.
None of that ties with that common experience I just mentioned. If your spouse thought sex was ok before marriage, and left you flat after the wedding day, then there can not possibly be any religious or societal shaming behind that behavior. It is simply not credible.
Occum's Razor says, that in the case I mentioned, your spouse fucked their way into a marriage, never intending to give you the sexual life implicitly promised in exchange for the monogamy of marriage.
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