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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 10:54:25 GMT -5
CT: I'm not sure why you'll not engage your wife sexually. You have to try in my opinion . If not, then why waste her time and yours? A lot of resentment that way lies. We've only started to even bring it up in our couples counseling, and we haven't even gotten to talking about the long term chronic lack of sex and the "why" behind it. And in my individual therapy, we've only started delving into that as well. I did try when I kissed her the other night after the wedding we were at, but then started feeling resentful that it was the first "real" kiss we'd shared this calendar year, and that the only time I felt her being receptive to bring physically affectionate with me (more than holding hands or hugging) was when she was four or five glasses of wine in. And all that killed it for me. And that's the heart of the problem. If they refuse enough, then even when you get something, instead of enjoying it, you have cynical thoughts, like, "How long will it be before this happens again?" |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 11:03:10 GMT -5
cagedtiger: "Speaking to the 'changing things' part, she also said she simultaneously feels the need to demonstrate to me that these changes are going to be permanent- and resents me for feeling like she has to do that." It sounds to me like she really resents the idea that you want the changes to be permanent. Maybe she really wants to give you just enough to keep you around. Almost everybody hates change, whether they admit it or not. When my refuser changed into a refuser, I hated that change. I wanted him back the way he was. Meanwhile, he wanted me to be OK with the change. And when I Talked To Him About It™ enough to give him a clear message that I wanted some changes (back to the way we used to be), he was resistant to that change. That's why he would go along with my suggestions at first, but then that would never last.
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Post by ted on Nov 2, 2016 11:20:19 GMT -5
Maybe she's making an effort. If you're horny what's it going to hurt. [....] In my experience, it can hurt quite a bit. The physical act alone isn't what we're really after, of course, but I naively thought the physical act alone couldn't be a net loss. It sure felt like it to me though. Those memories still haunt me, worse than the memories from the earlier days of our marriage when I still had hope. There's a reason sexual abuse strikes to our core. I'm not saying less-than-meaningful sex is equivalent to abuse—but it's messing with that same powerful, fragile part of ourselves. |
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Post by beachguy on Nov 2, 2016 11:30:28 GMT -5
Maybe she's making an effort. If you're horny what's it going to hurt. [....] In my experience, it can hurt quite a bit. The physical act alone isn't what we're really after, of course, but I naively thought the physical act alone couldn't be a net loss. It sure felt like it to me though. Those memories still haunt me, worse than the memories from the earlier days of our marriage when I still had hope. There's a reason sexual abuse strikes to our core. I'm not saying less-than-meaningful sex is equivalent to abuse—but it's messing with that same powerful, fragile part of ourselves. It is abusive when it is withheld as a form of control and/or punishment |
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Post by ted on Nov 2, 2016 11:51:53 GMT -5
In my experience, it can hurt quite a bit. The physical act alone isn't what we're really after, of course, but I naively thought the physical act alone couldn't be a net loss. It sure felt like it to me though. Those memories still haunt me, worse than the memories from the earlier days of our marriage when I still had hope. There's a reason sexual abuse strikes to our core. I'm not saying less-than-meaningful sex is equivalent to abuse—but it's messing with that same powerful, fragile part of ourselves. It is abusive when it is withheld as a form of control and/or punishment I agree with you, I was just trying to distance it from the horrifying violation that rape or molestation must be. I wish I knew more affirmatively which sexual encounters were about control and which weren't, assuming they all weren't. Did she even know what she was doing? All the fuzziness around determining when and when I wasn't being manipulated, and whether she was doing it consciously or just because that's they way she thinks the world works, tortures me a bit. I'm always wondering if I make it up and am really torturing myself. Damn, I gotta stop thinking. |
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Post by beachguy on Nov 2, 2016 11:57:15 GMT -5
It is abusive when it is withheld as a form of control and/or punishment I agree with you, I was just trying to distance it from the horrifying violation that rape or molestation must be. I wish I knew more affirmatively which sexual encounters were about control and which weren't, assuming they all weren't. Did she even know what she was doing? All the fuzziness around determining when and when I wasn't being manipulated, and whether she was doing it consciously or just because that's they way she thinks the world works, tortures me a bit. I'm always wondering if I make it up and am really torturing myself. Damn, I gotta stop thinking. You're overthinking it. Just look at the totality of your SM. And besides, the why doesn't matter. It's an SM and you are unhappy enough to be here. That's all that matters. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Nov 2, 2016 14:44:07 GMT -5
In this case, I don't think it's about abuse or control- well, not in the normal sense. It's more about her having a very low sex drive, and low self-esteem, and low self-confidence in that regard, and being afraid of letting anybody, her husband included, get too close.
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Post by cagedtiger on Nov 2, 2016 14:47:06 GMT -5
Oh. And a complete and utter lack of ability (or effort?) to really understand me, my needs, and my motivations.
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Post by bballgirl on Nov 2, 2016 15:02:57 GMT -5
In this case, I don't think it's about abuse or control- well, not in the normal sense. It's more about her having a very low sex drive, and low self-esteem, and low self-confidence in that regard, and being afraid of letting anybody, her husband included, get too close. I know this is a dumb question and I know you have probably answered it in a backstory but I'm wondering was she that way prior to marriage/ being engaged? |
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Post by cagedtiger on Nov 2, 2016 15:17:28 GMT -5
In this case, I don't think it's about abuse or control- well, not in the normal sense. It's more about her having a very low sex drive, and low self-esteem, and low self-confidence in that regard, and being afraid of letting anybody, her husband included, get too close. I know this is a dumb question and I know you have probably answered it in a backstory but I'm wondering was she that way prior to marriage/ being engaged? For at least a year before marriage, yes. She became deeply depressed and very, very anxious because of an abusive job, and I fell into the, "it'll get better after ___" trap. But it hasn't ever gotten fully better. Our first year or so of dating was pretty great, though with me in school and her working a lot, we weren't around each other nearly as much either. |
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Post by LITW on Nov 2, 2016 15:30:51 GMT -5
Confused is where I spend most of my time, so I think I have something to say on this topic.
this is how I would interpret her remark:
"Just something, ideally sexual." = "I know I really should be wanting sex with you, and I know I really should be wanting to hang out with you, so to assuage my guilt for the fact that I want neither, I am going to act like I am interested in you with the hope that you will give me points for trying and out of gratitude for the fact that I tired you will be satisfied with just a cuddle and not insist on actual intercourse."
If I were you, I would take her up on it, knowing that she probably won't follow through. That way if the topic of who tried to make the marriage ever comes up, she won't be able to say that you never even tried.
If you want the issue to come to a head now, call her on her bluff, because a bluff is exactly what it is.
Just to give you a background for my interpretation, this is my experience: my wife and I usually go to a marriage enrichment event once a year, and every year for the few hours we are there, she seems completely sold out on making sex and affection a priority in our marriage. Then within hours of it being over, things are back to the way it was before--she has no interest. I gave up asking her for sex a few years ago when I realized that my success rate (how many times asking for it resulted in it actually happening) was nearing 1%, and she seemed so disengaged during the few times we had sex it was hardly an enjoyable experience.
The result is that now we go about 8 weeks with no sexual contact, and then she will suddenly out of the blue develop an interest in having sex, and seem to be totally into it while we are in the act. However, as soon as it is over, she reverts to no interest at all in doing anything further. This cycle has been repeating itself for three years now with celestial regularity.
The funny thing is that she craves my presence in the house, but doesn't want sex. Its hard for me to imagine wanting to be physically near someone you love and not wanting to be affectionate with them.
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Post by bballgirl on Nov 2, 2016 15:59:34 GMT -5
I know this is a dumb question and I know you have probably answered it in a backstory but I'm wondering was she that way prior to marriage/ being engaged? For at least a year before marriage, yes. She became deeply depressed and very, very anxious because of an abusive job, and I fell into the, "it'll get better after ___" trap. But it hasn't ever gotten fully better. Our first year or so of dating was pretty great, though with me in school and her working a lot, we weren't around each other nearly as much either. I understand. It's ok to think it will get better. The key is when you know it won't to change something. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 2, 2016 17:01:53 GMT -5
Oh. And a complete and utter lack of ability (or effort?) to really understand me, my needs, and my motivations. Effort. A big factor in my decision. When my therapist said, "you went above and beyond, and your wife put forth zero effort." |
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Post by csl on Nov 2, 2016 17:13:42 GMT -5
Oh. And a complete and utter lack of ability (or effort?) to really understand me, my needs, and my motivations. Effort. A big factor in my decision. When my therapist said, "you went above and beyond, and your wife put forth zero effort." I guess I have been blessed with more than my share of cynicism, but there might be another lack: caring. As in "I don't care to understand your needs." All too often, people love the idea of BEING married, but don't want the burden of ACTING married. Can't be bothered. |
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Post by obobfla on Nov 2, 2016 18:00:51 GMT -5
I had a similar conversation with my wife. She asked why we weren't more sexual. I told her flat out that with everything I had been through with her, I had lost my desire. I mentioned the weekend at the bed and breakfast, which was supposed to be a romantic but she refused. I told her that it was on her to win me back and let me know I was wanted. If she wanted sex, she would have to ask. I had already asked enough and got shot down. I wasn't going to be the initiator,
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