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Post by saddad on Oct 24, 2016 11:41:09 GMT -5
So, I've been doing a lot of research on sexless marriage. I feel vindicated that I'm not a nut and that it is not appropriate to live in a sexless marriage for the rest of my life. I confronted my wife this morning and gave her the information I found on sexless marriage and asked her to do some research of her own and that we please discuss these and find a solution. She said that the reason we are not having sex is that our relationship was a mess two years ago and that it was having a negative impact on the kids. I said that since then I've stopped drinking, stopped smoking, started therapy, been diagnosed bi-polar 2, started taking the appropriate meds, and have been completely stable emotionally for at least a year. She said that 6 months ago she indicated to me that she would be willing to go on a date with me, (prior I had asked and she had said no), and that I still have not set up a date and therefore it's my own fault. I said I was sorry that that was the case and that I would be happy to work on that. At which point she said that just going on a date so that I could get sex was not a solution. I agreed. I went back to the research I had done and that everything I've read indicated that it was very important for me to be firm with communicating that a sexless marriage is not right and that while I don't want our marriage to end I do want to be happy and that I need to be in a physically intimate relationship to be happy. She said she is not responsible for my happiness. I began to get angry with the semantics and circular logic that while yes she is not responsible for my happiness in order to be happy I need a physical relationship with another human and she is the human I have chosen. She again said that she is not responsible for my happiness and that since I was becoming angry she was done with this conversation and she left. I should not have become angry. I did not yell. But it is very frustrating and I need to remain calm. So that's my day so far, how are you all?
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Post by beachguy on Oct 24, 2016 12:06:15 GMT -5
"I'm willing to go on a date with you"
"I don't want to go on a date with you if you just want sex"
"I'm not responsible for your happiness. If you need sex to be happy then that's your problem"
And finally... Although you left this unsaid it's SOP for most refusers... "I don't want you but I'll make your life a living Hell if anyone else has you... "
I spent 30 years in your mind fuck deal. Nothing ever made sense and nothing was ever resolved. Good luck, I hope you find the resolution I never did. You cannot make someone want you. That is the only Ultimate Truth I got out of my deal. My only advice is to accept that as a fact and then act accordingly.
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Post by unmatched on Oct 24, 2016 17:03:04 GMT -5
Given what you said in your other post about your background, it seems to me that the trust in your relationship is basically broken on both sides. I don't know if you can get it back or not, but I honestly can't see anything much shifting without some help. I think you need counselling in which both of you are willing and enthusiastic participants. Don't know if that is an option for you?
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Post by saddad on Oct 24, 2016 17:23:11 GMT -5
Thank you all for the replies. We did do marriage counseling about three years ago. I didn't think it did much good at the time because I had a number of other issues to tackle like getting diagnosed with my mental disorder and getting on the proper meds as well as stopping drinking. Basically, because of my issues marriage counseling just turned into blaming me for everything because of my issues. Once I had everything under control I was in individual therapy, my wife also went to individual therapy. Over the past year I've asked her several times to go back to couples therapy. She says she doesn't see it helping since we tried it already and or she is still working on herself individually. Her individual therapy seems to be very focused on vocabulary. I hear a lot of things like, "you words are invalidating." Saying things like, "I'm sorry you feel that way" will get you in big trouble around here as that is apparently blaming. We end up in spirals of discussing what words to use versus what feeling and issues we actually have.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 18:08:26 GMT -5
Round and round it goes. Anyone who's in a marital shithole, sexless or otherwise, knows how that feels. Like falling into a bottomless pit. Once it reaches this point there's not much chance of turning it around. You have communicated clearly that you do not consider it acceptable to be married and celibate. The question now is what do you do if this communication does not yield any change. Because from the sound of it it's not going to. Do you talk some more? Do you lay down an ultimatum (don't unless you mean it)? Do you have sex with someone else? Do you back off and say nothing else about it for another month? Do you decide to accept a sexless marriage as your lot in life?
You will likely be required to make such a decision in the near future.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2016 18:11:38 GMT -5
Thank you all for the replies. We did do marriage counseling about three years ago. I didn't think it did much good at the time because I had a number of other issues to tackle like getting diagnosed with my mental disorder and getting on the proper meds as well as stopping drinking. Basically, because of my issues marriage counseling just turned into blaming me for everything because of my issues. Once I had everything under control I was in individual therapy, my wife also went to individual therapy. Over the past year I've asked her several times to go back to couples therapy. She says she doesn't see it helping since we tried it already and or she is still working on herself individually. Her individual therapy seems to be very focused on vocabulary. I hear a lot of things like, "you words are invalidating." Saying things like, "I'm sorry you feel that way" will get you in big trouble around here as that is apparently blaming. We end up in spirals of discussing what words to use versus what feeling and issues we actually have. When a marriage reaches this level of dysfunction, marital counseling is unlikely to result in any permanent and significant change. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Oct 24, 2016 18:31:48 GMT -5
See a lawyer - just for information. You don't have to use the information.
If she is not willing to try couples therapy again - she is basically laying it out right there.
HUGE change to go to therapy sober vs. not. If she is not willing to support your couple with some actions (instead of words and boundary-setting) then you probably need the info from a lawyer. You can use that info to choose to stay (or not).
I'm appalled she's used her therapist as a weapon against you (this is how I see it - but I admit I haven't read your other posts yet).
You sound like you are doing everything within your power to make the deal as amenable to HER demands as you possibly can. If she isn't even willing to engage in giving couples therapy another shot, then you may not stand much of a chance to get her to engage in ANYthing else either.
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Post by baza on Oct 24, 2016 20:31:31 GMT -5
"I've stopped drinking, stopped smoking, started therapy, been diagnosed bi-polar 2, started taking the appropriate meds, and have been completely stable emotionally for at least a year" - you say.
This - working on your own stuff - is highly commendable, and is after all, the ONLY thing you can control.
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Reads like your missus has issues she 'could' work on too, but that is entirely up to her.
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Possibly, if you BOTH work on your individual issues, there might be a meeting of the minds down the track a bit.
Or, a realisation that there can not be a meeting of the minds.
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But in any event, sorting out YOUR shit is a great idea in and of itself.
You do that, and the outcomes will take care of themselves.
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Post by Dan on Oct 25, 2016 11:48:27 GMT -5
OK, not that I think this suggestion will go over well with her... but I ask: does SHE need therapy?
I mean, if she has some lingering anger/trust issues, OK, that might be reasonable. You showed you were willing to work on yours... sounds like she has a chip on her shoulder that needs work, too.
You might ask her point blank:
- do you want to stay married to me?
- if I stay married to you, I want an ongoing sexual relationship. Can you envision us getting to that point?
- are you willing to work with me on getting us there?
If you get all "yeses"... great, get going.
Equivocation? Hmm... proceed... but revisit the questions periodically.
Any "nos"? It might be over.
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Post by saddad on Oct 25, 2016 20:27:05 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the good advice. I asked her out on a coffee date this afternoon when we were done working and before the kids got done with school. It was interesting. It turns out that she initiated sex the last two times we had sex, (I had forgotten this because it was so long ago). Apparently, I do not know how to initiate sex properly. Attacking her in bed to only be brushed off, grabbing her in the kitchen and trying to kiss her passionately, telling her how sexy she is and asking if she would like to go get naked, none of these are apparently initiating sex. It turns out that you have to prove that you want to spend time with her by taking her out on several dates and connecting emotionally. I get that women generally have a more emotional aspect to sex but it strikes me that there should be a little give and take. I rebutted with reminding her that about 5 months ago we took a trip to Mexico without the kids where we walked on the beach together and lounged in the moonlight together and spent a every waking and sleeping moment together connecting emotionally and each night of this vacation I literally asked her if we could have sex and was shot down. Somehow this didn't count. I asked her again today if we could do some more couples counseling and she said she would think about it if I would commit to focusing on not being passive aggressive and using language that didn't dismiss her feelings and emotions. It sucks to be resentful about having to always fix me when there doesn't seem to be a lot of fixing on the other side. What can you do. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to initiate sex that works? Apparently, I don't know how.
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Post by baza on Oct 25, 2016 20:44:08 GMT -5
Personally (in the context of an ILIASM shithole) I know of no method of how to successfully and consistently initiate sex.
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Although it is a long and arduous process, my suggestion remains that you keep working on your shit diligently - just as you have been - and the outcome as it concerns your relationship will take care of itself.
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What your missus "should do", what she "should give you credit for", what she "should give and take" are matters totally beyond your control. They are her issues to address, or not address, as she see's fit.
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You control only you.
It is unwise to overly concentrate your energy and resources on your missus. Her issues are her responsibility.
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You, are setting an example in this respect by concentrating on your issues.
You can not do better than that.
She may follow your lead. She may not.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 25, 2016 21:01:51 GMT -5
A couple of things here. She is not responsible for your happiness.No, but she could be responsible for a lot of your unhappiness. Your responsibility is allowing it to happen, and continue. That quote and logic comes from the books Boundaries,and Boundaries in Marriage. They are both really good books, but one thing it says (i'm paraphrasing, I need to look it up) That boundaries are for you to set for yourself, not to be judging and casting control over another person.
These accusations of being passive aggressive, the same book defends those actions when dealing with a controller,who is only interested in thrusting there boundaries on you, but rides over yours like a tank. Where the books fall short is instructing you to end it. Instead they give a little advice to communicate, never explaining what to do when it just gets rejected.
The circular logic,relates with a controller that desires and requires "acts of service". You will be in a never ending treadmill. A lose, lose, situation, a double bind, The always moving goalpost.
See if you can relate to this. I found my STBX reading the book "Boundaries", I asked her what it was about? She responded, "it is teaching me to say ,NO". Believe me, she was and is very good at that.
Lastly,isn't that "special" that she has this arsenal of higher education, logical, psychological vocabulary? Words mean things. Or words can be like chasing the wind. Actions, look at each others actions, Taking and giving, with discussions about actions that support both your feelings, not just, " I say I feel that way, even though I have no actions of mine or yours to back that, so you must except my feelings as fact. Manipulative controlling at its peak!
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Post by Dan on Oct 26, 2016 8:28:59 GMT -5
You MAY be a couple that would benefit from couples therapy. You MIGHT be a couple that would benefit from the Forty Beads Method. That is: IF she does truly want to still [sometimes] have sex with you, and generally wants marital happiness. From what you've written, I could be optimistic or pessimistic. optimistic case:
Her words taken at face value indicate she still wants to have a sexual relationship with you. She feels you need to learn to approach her/initiate intimacy "better"; maybe there are some things you don't know about her wants that would be helpful. But that means she has to have the patience and desire to explain them to you. You two can try to do this on your own, or -- I recommend -- with the help of a therapist. If she keeps walking away from your attempts to discuss this and never agrees to couples therapy... you have to call her on it. "You say you need me to 'approach you better': I'm having trouble understanding, but I'm willing to work on it. Let's work on it." Get her to suggest a specific next step, and hold her to it. She IS reasonable to "want to feel appreciated and loved" as a lead up to intimacy. But expecting that to happen over the course of a dozen dates is too much! PLEASE read my post on " The Forty Beads Method". Here's why I think it MIGHT work for you: 1) She seems to think "he just pounces on me in the kitchen, then thinks that will get me in the mood." If there is truth to that (you consider greedy groping counts as foreplay), she may be right. 2) She seems to say "I need weeks of pleasant dates and no stress before I can have sex with you." She is over-expecting on this one! The Forty Beads method splits that right up the middle: • Wife gives husband "beads" or some other token. When redeemed there is a promise "we'll make love sometime in the next 24 hours." • Husband redeems a bead. He naturally starts exhibiting "good husband behavior" -- might be flirting, touching, "choreplay", "acts of service", "little gifts", compliments, whatever. He hasn't had sex yet, and he's ALREADY happy. He gets the benefit of knowing he WON'T be shot down. • Wife has time to "get in the mood". She gets the benefit of no "greedy groping" or "pounce on me in the kitchen". She gets the benefit of the husband's "good husband behavior" and happy mood. If she usually puts up barriers like "I'm not shower/shaved" she has all day to get ready; no room for excuses like that. • Yes, the wife is giving up a certain amount of control... but she gets quite a bit from this arrangement, too. I suggest: read the blurb on its website. If that interests you buy the book and read it first. IF you think there is a chance that she'd do it, give her the book. Then SHE needs to read it. If she thinks it will work -- because there are benefits for HER and benefits for the MARRIAGE -- then SHE needs to be the one to give you the beads. pessimistic case:Maybe you already ARE an attentive lover; approaching her with tenderness and subtlety. She may be using "you're not doing it right" as an impossible, unspecified, moving -- and therefore unattainable -- "standard". When you feel that when discussing intimate details of previous encounters you have to use language like "I rebutted"... that doesn't bode well. It shows the situation is already "combative". (Again, a therapist MIGHT help diffuse this.) I too went on a week long vacation with my wife to a tropical vacation destination. No sex. My therapist told me years later "if a couple is on nice vacation without the kids and not having lots of sex, that indicates some sort of problem." IMO, she is totally misusing the whole "I'm not responsible for your happiness" thing. I mean, if you were unhappy at work, or had friction with your parents, no, she is not "responsible" to fix that. If you are clinically diagnosed with depression, she is not "responsible" to fix that either. But she IS one half of a married couple, where at least one half wants to have marital relations. She IS responsible to participate... or release you from the expectation of monogamy. The obvious retort to "I'm not responsible for your happiness" is "I'm not responsible to get YOU in the mood!". OK my friend. Which are you closer to: the "optimistic" or "pessimistic" case? |
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Post by beachguy on Oct 26, 2016 10:50:11 GMT -5
More and more I'm convinced this is a simple problem: some people like to have sex, and done do not.
Those that do, will want sex even if everything isn't perfect. They will want sex until the bitter end of the marriage.
Those that do not will not generally admit it. They will force their partner to jump through endless and never ending hoops. And unfortunately the popular press SM solutions encourage this hoop jumping.
I see endless hoops in this ongoing story.
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Post by saddad on Oct 26, 2016 11:06:36 GMT -5
I'm so glad I stumbled across this site. I'm getting a ton of very useful feed-back and I greatly appreciate it. Dan, I'm definitely going to check out that book and see if we can give the 40 beads a try. I read your post on it and it sounds promising. I agree that some people just don't like sex as much as others. I also think that we get in our own heads too much when we want sex and we don't get it. Am I good enough, am I too fat, am I too old looking, blah, etc. I thought long and hard yesterday about the possibility that I'm the one withholding sex. The facts don't suggest this to be the case, but I can see where my wife may have that thought based on her feeling that I don't initiate correctly for her and so maybe she somehow thinks I've not wanted to have sex for years. I doubt that but it's worth a thought. I'm going to try having that mindset in my interactions with her for the next few days and see what happens. Like, wow, maybe she thinks I'm the asshole?!?!? We'll see.
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