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Post by baza on Oct 27, 2016 20:54:08 GMT -5
I'm a bit curious about "Marshall" and "Debbie" - "Debbie" apparently packed up the kids and left with them after her latest drunken belting at the hands of "Marshall". Now in this 2nd hand account, "Marshall" immediately high tailed it to AA. Let's say on Aril 15 1984 Presumably "Debbie" was a tad suspicious about "Marshalls" new found sobriety, and did not return to the marital abode the day after on April 16 1984 but rather, put a fair bit of distance - and time - in between them for "Marshall" to attempt to sort his shit out, or to fail gloriously in the attempt - So how long did they stay separated ? What was the trigger that convinced "Debbie" (or "Marshall" for that matter) to give it another whirl ? And who initiated the reconciliation ? How did "Debbie" learn to trust "Marshall" again ? How did "Marshall" learn to trust himself again ? - And, is there anywhere that "Debbie" (or "Marshall") have written first hand accounts of their experience ? - It seems to have some parallels to Sister EO's first hand stories in here (although it has not progressed to the "packing up the kids and leaving" stage as yet)
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Post by csl on Oct 28, 2016 4:17:30 GMT -5
I'm a bit curious about "Marshall" and "Debbie" - - So how long did they stay separated ? What was the trigger that convinced "Debbie" (or "Marshall" for that matter) to give it another whirl ? And who initiated the reconciliation ? How did "Debbie" learn to trust "Marshall" again ? How did "Marshall" learn to trust himself again ? - And, is there anywhere that "Debbie" (or "Marshall") have written first hand accounts of their experience ? - It seems to have some parallels to Sister EO's first hand stories in here (although it has not progressed to the "packing up the kids and leaving" stage as yet) Several months. Trigger? I don't know. I do know that they were members of the same church as Wife and I, and I know the leadership involved. There was support for both of them and counseling. I was not in on the counseling or decision-making, so I couldn't tell you who "initiated" reconciliation. But by using the word "reconciliation", you invite in the entire restoration process. If you meant to ask who suggested she move back in, again, I was not privy to their counseling sessions. Trust takes time, so Debbie had to be involved with Marshall to learn to trust. Your question about Marshall learning to trust himself was insightful. I will say that through AA he learned more about himself than he did through his church, and so I can't say that anyone ever comes to that level of self-trust. The late, great Rich Mullins had a song with a statement, "I doubt myself, I doubt my eyes." And, no, they never did write a first-hand account. The reason I know their story is that we attended the same church, and lived in the second floor apartment over their first floor apartment. Also, Wife and Debbie taught at the same small Christian school; Debbie was my son's first guitar teacher and led singing at the church we attended back in the 80's.
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Post by beachguy on Oct 28, 2016 13:35:05 GMT -5
I'm so glad I stumbled across this site. I'm getting a ton of very useful feed-back and I greatly appreciate it. Dan, I'm definitely going to check out that book and see if we can give the 40 beads a try. I read your post on it and it sounds promising. I agree that some people just don't like sex as much as others. I also think that we get in our own heads too much when we want sex and we don't get it. Am I good enough, am I too fat, am I too old looking, blah, etc. I thought long and hard yesterday about the possibility that I'm the one withholding sex. The facts don't suggest this to be the case, but I can see where my wife may have that thought based on her feeling that I don't initiate correctly for her and so maybe she somehow thinks I've not wanted to have sex for years. I doubt that but it's worth a thought. I'm going to try having that mindset in my interactions with her for the next few days and see what happens. Like, wow, maybe she thinks I'm the asshole?!?!? We'll see. saddad, in the 30 years I had to figure out the WHY, I also often considered it was me that might be refusing (well after the problem started, I must add). Mainly because I'm not an idiot and I don't like banging my head against a wall. I'm not that guy that asks every day, and turned down 29 out of 30 nightly attempts. In my case it was all part of the mind fucking I got from my refuser, who never owned up to what was going on. You may be different or not. But know that you aren't the only one mind fucked by the idea that we might be the refuser. And don't confuse refusing with counter-refusal, the end game of the marriage.
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Post by iceman on Nov 1, 2016 8:24:39 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the good advice. I asked her out on a coffee date this afternoon when we were done working and before the kids got done with school. It was interesting. It turns out that she initiated sex the last two times we had sex, (I had forgotten this because it was so long ago). Apparently, I do not know how to initiate sex properly. Attacking her in bed to only be brushed off, grabbing her in the kitchen and trying to kiss her passionately, telling her how sexy she is and asking if she would like to go get naked, none of these are apparently initiating sex. It turns out that you have to prove that you want to spend time with her by taking her out on several dates and connecting emotionally. I get that women generally have a more emotional aspect to sex but it strikes me that there should be a little give and take. I rebutted with reminding her that about 5 months ago we took a trip to Mexico without the kids where we walked on the beach together and lounged in the moonlight together and spent a every waking and sleeping moment together connecting emotionally and each night of this vacation I literally asked her if we could have sex and was shot down. Somehow this didn't count. I asked her again today if we could do some more couples counseling and she said she would think about it if I would commit to focusing on not being passive aggressive and using language that didn't dismiss her feelings and emotions. It sucks to be resentful about having to always fix me when there doesn't seem to be a lot of fixing on the other side. What can you do. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to initiate sex that works? Apparently, I don't know how. My wife says she doesn't touch me in any affectionate way because she's afraid that I will take it as her trying to initiate sex. Normally, that's not true at all. However, the only time she does touch me, affectionately or otherwise, is when she's trying to tell me that she would be agreeable to sex. Yeah, that's about as enthusiastic as she gets. She's can't really say she wants to have sex but she wouldn't scream if I jumped her. With a come-on like that how could I resist??? Anyway, the point is that she won't touch me because she's afraid I'll take it as a sexual come-on but the only time she touches me is when it is a sexual come-on, even though it's a really pathetic come-on, so what am I supposed to think when she touches me? She's engaged in a self-fulfilling prophecy. My wife is big on creating self-fulfilling prophecies about a lot of things. It allows her to justify her irrational thoughts. 'See, I told you this was going to happen...'
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2016 11:11:26 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the good advice. I asked her out on a coffee date this afternoon when we were done working and before the kids got done with school. It was interesting. It turns out that she initiated sex the last two times we had sex, (I had forgotten this because it was so long ago). Apparently, I do not know how to initiate sex properly. Attacking her in bed to only be brushed off, grabbing her in the kitchen and trying to kiss her passionately, telling her how sexy she is and asking if she would like to go get naked, none of these are apparently initiating sex. It turns out that you have to prove that you want to spend time with her by taking her out on several dates and connecting emotionally. I get that women generally have a more emotional aspect to sex but it strikes me that there should be a little give and take. I rebutted with reminding her that about 5 months ago we took a trip to Mexico without the kids where we walked on the beach together and lounged in the moonlight together and spent a every waking and sleeping moment together connecting emotionally and each night of this vacation I literally asked her if we could have sex and was shot down. Somehow this didn't count. I asked her again today if we could do some more couples counseling and she said she would think about it if I would commit to focusing on not being passive aggressive and using language that didn't dismiss her feelings and emotions. It sucks to be resentful about having to always fix me when there doesn't seem to be a lot of fixing on the other side. What can you do. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to initiate sex that works? Apparently, I don't know how. My wife says she doesn't touch me in any affectionate way because she's afraid that I will take it as her trying to initiate sex. Normally, that's not true at all. However, the only time she does touch me, affectionately or otherwise, is when she's trying to tell me that she would be agreeable to sex. Yeah, that's about as enthusiastic as she gets. She's can't really say she wants to have sex but she wouldn't scream if I jumped her. With a come-on like that how could I resist??? Anyway, the point is that she won't touch me because she's afraid I'll take it as a sexual come-on but the only time she touches me is when it is a sexual come-on, even though it's a really pathetic come-on, so what am I supposed to think when she touches me? She's engaged in a self-fulfilling prophecy. My wife is big on creating self-fulfilling prophecies about a lot of things. It allows her to justify her irrational thoughts. 'See, I told you this was going to happen...' You seem like a willing partner in her games so you can't totally blame her on this - take two to create this self fulfilling prophecy. She doesn't want sex and your solution is to aggressively pursue her then blame her when she says no.
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Post by beachguy on Nov 1, 2016 11:45:44 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the good advice. I asked her out on a coffee date this afternoon when we were done working and before the kids got done with school. It was interesting. It turns out that she initiated sex the last two times we had sex, (I had forgotten this because it was so long ago). Apparently, I do not know how to initiate sex properly. Attacking her in bed to only be brushed off, grabbing her in the kitchen and trying to kiss her passionately, telling her how sexy she is and asking if she would like to go get naked, none of these are apparently initiating sex. It turns out that you have to prove that you want to spend time with her by taking her out on several dates and connecting emotionally. I get that women generally have a more emotional aspect to sex but it strikes me that there should be a little give and take. I rebutted with reminding her that about 5 months ago we took a trip to Mexico without the kids where we walked on the beach together and lounged in the moonlight together and spent a every waking and sleeping moment together connecting emotionally and each night of this vacation I literally asked her if we could have sex and was shot down. Somehow this didn't count. I asked her again today if we could do some more couples counseling and she said she would think about it if I would commit to focusing on not being passive aggressive and using language that didn't dismiss her feelings and emotions. It sucks to be resentful about having to always fix me when there doesn't seem to be a lot of fixing on the other side. What can you do. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to initiate sex that works? Apparently, I don't know how. My wife says she doesn't touch me in any affectionate way because she's afraid that I will take it as her trying to initiate sex. There is a best seller titled "Refusing For Dummies" That's on page one. Below it "all you think about is sex". Below that "you're only being affectionate because you want sex". It could have been a one page book but it's 105 pages. We've all heard every idea on those 105 pages...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 8:25:37 GMT -5
More and more I'm convinced this is a simple problem: some people like to have sex, and done do not. Those that do, will want sex even if everything isn't perfect. They will want sex until the bitter end of the marriage. Those that do not will not generally admit it. They will force their partner to jump through endless and never ending hoops. And unfortunately the popular press SM solutions encourage this hoop jumping. I see endless hoops in this ongoing story. I very much disagree. For many people, myself included, sex is a very delicate thing emotionally. I am very sexual but I need to feel a great connection and be comfortable in order to have sex with anyone. In many relationships there are so many bad feelings and resentment and the sex suffers because of this and not for lack or libido. At this point, I dont know if I can ever have sex with my wife after her refusing me for so many years and all the built up resentment. I could probably have sex (and actually have) with people I barley know much easier. Save
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Post by beachguy on Nov 2, 2016 8:47:22 GMT -5
More and more I'm convinced this is a simple problem: some people like to have sex, and done do not. Those that do, will want sex even if everything isn't perfect. They will want sex until the bitter end of the marriage. Those that do not will not generally admit it. They will force their partner to jump through endless and never ending hoops. And unfortunately the popular press SM solutions encourage this hoop jumping. I see endless hoops in this ongoing story. I very much disagree. For many people, myself included, sex is a very delicate thing emotionally. I am very sexual but I need to feel a great connection and be comfortable in order to have sex with anyone. In many relationships there are so many bad feelings and resentment and the sex suffers because of this and not for lack or libido. At this point, I dont know if I can ever have sex with my wife after her refusing me for so many years and all the built up resentment. I could probably have sex (and actually have) with people I barley know much easier. SaveYou're looking at the back end of a LT SM and I'm looking at how it got there.
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Post by iceman on Nov 2, 2016 9:06:16 GMT -5
My wife says she doesn't touch me in any affectionate way because she's afraid that I will take it as her trying to initiate sex. Normally, that's not true at all. However, the only time she does touch me, affectionately or otherwise, is when she's trying to tell me that she would be agreeable to sex. Yeah, that's about as enthusiastic as she gets. She's can't really say she wants to have sex but she wouldn't scream if I jumped her. With a come-on like that how could I resist??? Anyway, the point is that she won't touch me because she's afraid I'll take it as a sexual come-on but the only time she touches me is when it is a sexual come-on, even though it's a really pathetic come-on, so what am I supposed to think when she touches me? She's engaged in a self-fulfilling prophecy. My wife is big on creating self-fulfilling prophecies about a lot of things. It allows her to justify her irrational thoughts. 'See, I told you this was going to happen...' You seem like a willing partner in her games so you can't totally blame her on this - take two to create this self fulfilling prophecy. She doesn't want sex and your solution is to aggressively pursue her then blame her when she says no. I think there's some truth to that, especially in the past. My actions did allow her prophecy to come true. However, at the time while I didn't recognize her game, as you put it, I knew that we would have sex and that's ultimately what I wanted back then. Now, as odd as it sounds, sex with her has lost most of its appeal, and I no longer engage in her games. To be fair, she's also not playing the game so there's not much temptation to resist.
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Post by JonDoe on Nov 2, 2016 23:20:25 GMT -5
iceman My wife is similar in that she usually doesn't touch me except to balance herself when she leans over to kiss me goodnight before she goes to sleep in another room. She regularly wears her wedding ring, says "I love you" before bedtime each night and most times we talk on the phone, but won't sleep in the same room because she "needs her sleep", won't kiss passionately because she thinks that is for high schoolers, refuses to initiate sex because she thinks that is the man's job, refuses to cuddle in bed or otherwise because she says she likes her personal space and it generates to much body heat, yet she snuggles with two big dogs and sleeps with heavy blankets all year long, and I can't recall the last time we even shared a genuine hug. And I'm talking about the best of times. Now for the kicker.... She believes it is cruelty to animals if dogs aren't walked and loved on everyday, but she believes a man doesn't require hugs and affection, and he should be able to control his urges to "get his rocks off" no more than once a month, or even less. She won't admit it, but she treats sex as a reward to be earned and to be doled out sparingly in marriage. Yet this same woman has admitted to being promiscuous before we met, even occasionally sleeping with two different men on the same day. She he has said to me before "I was really in the mood the other night, but you completely ignored the signs." Of course, I ask why she waited until several days later to tell me instead of telling him in the moment, to which she responds "I shouldn't have to tell you, you should just know!" However, there are no signs. No provocative looks, no innuendo, no telltale sign or subtle clues, no flirtyness, no touching, nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. A few years ago, I basically gave up trying because it was exhausting and depressing to get my hopes up only to be rejected so frequently.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 3:04:03 GMT -5
iceman My wife is similar in that she usually doesn't touch me except to balance herself when she leans over to kiss me goodnight before she goes to sleep in another room. She regularly wears her wedding ring, says "I love you" before bedtime each night and most times we talk on the phone, but won't sleep in the same room because she "needs her sleep", won't kiss passionately because she thinks that is for high schoolers, refuses to initiate sex because she thinks that is the man's job, refuses to cuddle in bed or otherwise because she says she likes her personal space and it generates to much body heat, yet she snuggles with two big dogs and sleeps with heavy blankets all year long, and I can't recall the last time we even shared a genuine hug. And I'm talking about the best of times. Now for the kicker.... She believes it is cruelty to animals if dogs aren't walked and loved on everyday, but she believes a man doesn't require hugs and affection, and he should be able to control his urges to "get his rocks off" no more than once a month, or even less. She won't admit it, but she treats sex as a reward to be earned and to be doled out sparingly in marriage. Yet this same woman has admitted to being promiscuous before we met, even occasionally sleeping with two different men on the same day. She he has said to me before "I was really in the mood the other night, but you completely ignored the signs." Of course, I ask why she waited until several days later to tell me instead of telling him in the moment, to which she responds "I shouldn't have to tell you, you should just know!" However, there are no signs. No provocative looks, no innuendo, no telltale sign or subtle clues, no flirtyness, no touching, nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. A few years ago, I basically gave up trying because it was exhausting and depressing to get my hopes up only to be rejected so frequently. Refusers are terrible at communicating. This is intentional. They keep us under control by keeping us guessing, scurrying after them trying to figure out what they want, like a dog begging for table scraps. Figure out the rules and you might get a small reward. They only do this because they can get away with it. Are the consequences of saying "no more!" worse than dying in a miserable marriage?
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