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Post by baza on Oct 6, 2016 0:01:39 GMT -5
Brother csl.
Your 3 examples of a 180, are out of how many examples of ILIASM deals ?
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 6, 2016 1:06:29 GMT -5
Yes, if both partners are totally committed to change. I would be interested to know how long the turnarounds lasted. Did the refuser go back to refusing once the coast was clear? Actually, no. In the case of the wife who was in 28 yrs., she reported that her husband had a Damascus Road type of experience, that he changed their yearly vacation destination so that they could combine it with a men's hormonal facility. Three years after the blow-up, she reported that she had never imagined that her marriage could have been so great. The guy I know of, who I believe I mentioned once before, is the one who gave his wife an ultimatum: change or move out. She threatened divorce, but when he got the classified ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she agreed to his terms of counseling, reading a book by Dr. Laura (of all people!), and frequency of at least once a week. He reported two years afterwards that his wife kept up her part of the 'bargain' and hadn't tried to back off. It's been a while since I read the third person's account (a wife), but I seem to remember that the ultimatum of separation had long-term effect, as well. CSL - As baza mentioned I am one of the very few out of the EP membership who had a turnaround. As @phinheasgage asked, how long do these turnarounds last? I think it depends on how much leverage you have, how much your refuser spouse actually needs you, and how well both partners / spouses communicate with each other. In my deal, I think I had a lot of leverage, my spouse really needed me, and we also communicated well about our needs and wants... and actually listened / did things differently (with help of a counselor) when the marriage was on the line. TL2 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2016 1:09:21 GMT -5
Yes, if both partners are totally committed to change. I would be interested to know how long the turnarounds lasted. Did the refuser go back to refusing once the coast was clear? Actually, no. In the case of the wife who was in 28 yrs., she reported that her husband had a Damascus Road type of experience, that he changed their yearly vacation destination so that they could combine it with a men's hormonal facility. Three years after the blow-up, she reported that she had never imagined that her marriage could have been so great. The guy I know of, who I believe I mentioned once before, is the one who gave his wife an ultimatum: change or move out. She threatened divorce, but when he got the classified ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she agreed to his terms of counseling, reading a book by Dr. Laura (of all people!), and frequency of at least once a week. He reported two years afterwards that his wife kept up her part of the 'bargain' and hadn't tried to back off. It's been a while since I read the third person's account (a wife), but I seem to remember that the ultimatum of separation had long-term effect, as well. In the few turnarounds you'll see, you'll usually find an ultimatum. Counseling, date nights, endless Talks, crying, begging, and bending over backwards to please a refuser do not effect change. Saying - and meaning - unless X happens, now, this marriage is over, is the only way to reasonably expect some slim likelihood of change. And yes that means you may lose your marriage, because you have to mean it. If you're not willing to vote with your feet, it might be best to work at accepting the situation. |
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 6, 2016 1:11:59 GMT -5
So me and the refuser were supposed to go to counseling for the last 3 weeks and 2 of those 3 weeks there was an excuse on his part as to why he couldn't go. I basically see this as another sign that nothing is going to change on his part. Last week Friday I finally had the "talk" with him and explained that I want a separation. Of course he broke down crying apologizing and asking for another chance. As sure as I am about my decision, I am incredibly sad and hurt. It feels like I failed at keeping the marriage together - even though I know he had a role to play too. I hate seeing him so sad and crying and the impact a separation will have on my kids is even worse to think about. I know I can't stay with him because I refuse to live a celibate life yet it seems so hard to leave. I wish there was an "easy button" ;/ Pinkskies - You may want to check out this thread I just started. Read the article and see if your H falls into 1 or more of these toxic categories. This may also help as you go about doing things from this point forward. TL2
10 Toxic People Quiz |
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Post by lwoetin on Oct 6, 2016 9:26:34 GMT -5
Brother csl. Your 3 examples of a 180, are out of how many examples of ILIASM deals ? However if there are cases of a 180 then there are cases of 170, 150, 360.... we just choose what is a good enough deal. |
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Post by csl on Oct 6, 2016 11:16:12 GMT -5
Brother csl. Your 3 examples of a 180, are out of how many examples of ILIASM deals ? Those are three that I cited. There is a Christian marriage forum that I participate in with others. And like here, there are many who don't do 180s. In the church, Marriage is practically imbued with deity, and so there is great pressure to knuckle under. Whether it be in the church or out of it, and even here on ISIASM, lwoetin's comment is lived out: "However if there are cases of a 180 then there are cases of 170, 150, 360.... we just choose what is a good enough deal." |
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Post by csl on Oct 6, 2016 11:21:37 GMT -5
CSL - As baza mentioned I am one of the very few out of the EP membership who had a turnaround. As @phinheasgage asked, how long do these turnarounds last? I think it depends on how much leverage you have, how much your refuser spouse actually needs you, and how well both partners / spouses communicate with each other. In my deal, I think I had a lot of leverage, my spouse really needed me, and we also communicated well about our needs and wants... and actually listened / did things differently (with help of a counselor) when the marriage was on the line. TL2 In many cases, yes, leverage is key. But there are times when things change from other motives. One blogger I know was a refuser for a number of years. Her story is that during the economic crisis of 2008, her hubs lost is job and went into depression. Of all things she thought of that she could do to help him, sex was the idea that she had. It helps that a few months before she had been to a Christian forum and read the pain in the words of refused husbands and wives and realized what she had done to her husband. The Damascus Road experience that I keep referring to, where people see the damage that they have done and it hits them, hard. |
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Post by csl on Oct 6, 2016 11:26:26 GMT -5
Actually, no. In the case of the wife who was in 28 yrs., she reported that her husband had a Damascus Road type of experience, that he changed their yearly vacation destination so that they could combine it with a men's hormonal facility. Three years after the blow-up, she reported that she had never imagined that her marriage could have been so great. The guy I know of, who I believe I mentioned once before, is the one who gave his wife an ultimatum: change or move out. She threatened divorce, but when he got the classified ads and started looking for an apartment for her, she agreed to his terms of counseling, reading a book by Dr. Laura (of all people!), and frequency of at least once a week. He reported two years afterwards that his wife kept up her part of the 'bargain' and hadn't tried to back off. It's been a while since I read the third person's account (a wife), but I seem to remember that the ultimatum of separation had long-term effect, as well. In the few turnarounds you'll see, you'll usually find an ultimatum. Counseling, date nights, endless Talks, crying, begging, and bending over backwards to please a refuser do not effect change. Saying - and meaning - unless X happens, now, this marriage is over, is the only way to reasonably expect some slim likelihood of change. And yes that means you may lose your marriage, because you have to mean it. If you're not willing to vote with your feet, it might be best to work at accepting the situation. On my blog, I have a couple of phrases that I use over and over again, like a mantra. One says "If you maintain the status quo, the status will always remain quo." The other I use so often that I've started to abbreviate it: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." -->> IYADWYAD, YAGWYAG. |
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Post by itsjustus on Oct 7, 2016 0:12:23 GMT -5
Can you "repair" a marriage from the point where you're here, in ILIASM?I've seen marriages where the couple burned it completely to the ground, then rebuilt it from the ashes to something resembling the former structure, but on a burned foundation, damaged, but functional. I've seen marriages where one promised to "do better" and the other settled for a "tolerable" life. I've seen marriages where the one....gave up and sank into an abyss of numb. I've seen marriages where the sword of Damocles is ever present. Out of all of these, I believe the lack of truly honest and open communication, guided by love, could be what stopped them from reaching the heights that timeforliving2 was able to achieve. Are they a life? Are the a real marriage? Only they can answer that. Only they need to answer that. For themselves. (Edit: added "but functional" to burned down, rebuilt, damaged....thoe marriage)
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Post by baza on Oct 7, 2016 1:04:55 GMT -5
I'd suggest in numerous examples seen in here that if (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" had been in play at the get go, the marriage would never have taken place.
I'd further suggest that if (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" had been brought in to play at the first signs of trouble, that many of these situations may have been resolvable.
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Fact is, that (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" was rarely present, at the get go, or at the initial warning indicators. Or in the terminal stages, where most of the examples in here reside.
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But, that is my opinion, which is worth precisely jack shit.
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However - quoting you here Brother itsjustus -
"Are they a life? Are they a real marriage? Only they can answer that.
Only they need to answer that.
For themselves."
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What you say is one of the great truths within this group.
And there is no "right" answer to those searching self interrogatives you raise.
There is only *your* answer.
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Post by baza on Oct 7, 2016 7:17:41 GMT -5
Sister Fiery.
I have just returned home after a drunken night at a trivia evening.
You are right about Brother Apochrypha. His 'recovered' deal proved temporary, but it did work for a while. I didn't mention that (or the fact that ModLulu's deal crashed also) in the interests of not being entirely negative. LovelyAlone was another who's 180 proved ephemeral.
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Now the grog load I am carrying may be making me more forthright than usual, but to me even Time4Living2's (a member I greatly admire) posts look to me like a heap of hard work for a barely acceptable return.
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Pity about the inaccesability of the old EP group.
Every aspect of ILIASM shitholes got covered and debated there, at length and at depth.
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Anyway, it is late, I am drunk, A warm Ms enna is in bed, I will join her, review this in the morning, and maybe edit it or delete it.
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And yes Sister grantgeek, this is a scotch post.
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Post by itsjustus on Oct 7, 2016 12:20:46 GMT -5
I'd suggest in numerous examples seen in here that if (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" had been in play at the get go, the marriage would never have taken place. I'd further suggest that if (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" had been brought in to play at the first signs of trouble, that many of these situations may have been resolvable. - Fact is, that (2 way) "truly honest and open communication" was rarely present, at the get go, or at the initial warning indicators. Or in the terminal stages, where most of the examples in here reside. - But, that is my opinion, which is worth precisely jack shit. - However - quoting you here Brother itsjustus - "Are they a life? Are they a real marriage? Only they can answer that.
Only they need to answer that.
For themselves."- What you say is one of the great truths within this group. And there is no "right" answer to those searching self interrogatives you raise. There is only *your* answer. You are exactly right Master Baz. (2way) "truly open and honest communication" at the onset, or at the initial warning indicators would save a massive amount of angst and heartache! In all likelihood, a vast amount of marriages would not occur in the first place, or those that run into the occasional trouble (they all do, the only variable being the severity) would survive and perhaps grow even stronger. But I'd dare say, IMHO, that once the point is reached where one finds themselves googling "sexless marriage" and lands here, the death knell has already rung. Brother CSL is correct that there are some turnarounds. I searched for them during my failed attempt and became close with them (at EP) But with a very few exceptions ( timeforliving2 being a notable exception) most that I knew of fell into the examples I gave. However, all of them are that individuals "right" answer, just not mine. Its almost a cliche here but another great truth, both here and in life in general, is the key word BOTH (2-way). Without the commitment of BOTH partners to a completely new marital dynamic, (the exception being the settle/oblivion example) I feel there is jack shit hope for reconciliation. The rarity of that here is the (sadly) most common outcome. But as you note, that is also just my opinion, which is precisly worth jack shit. (A great line. I'm stealing it fair and square!!) |
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Post by itsjustus on Oct 7, 2016 12:35:33 GMT -5
Sister Fiery. I have just returned home after a drunken night at a trivia evening.Pity about the inaccesability of the old EP group. Every aspect of ILIASM shitholes got covered and debated there, at length and at depth. Of note: I have been very successful in accessing specific EP members posts and comments by Googling "Experience Project" "I Live In A Sexless Marriage" "members name". You do get Every. Single. Reference. to that member, some of them unseen in the results, but it narrows the search by quite a bit. The exception being those that deleted their accounts (me). Those went to the Deleted 26-30 name, of which there are millions. Anyway, it is late, I am drunk, A warm Ms enna is in bed, I will join her, review this in the morning, and maybe edit it or delete it. And yes Sister grantgeek, this is a scotch post. Ha ha ha!!! I believe I recall a string of EP PM's involving myself, you, and Ms. Enna during the depths of my despair when I was advised by Ms. Enna that "Don't listen to him, he's been in a bottle of Scotch all night and he's drunk!" I think you stated that regardless, drunk or not, the truth was the truth. I still thank you for that. You were right. |
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Post by itsjustus on Oct 7, 2016 13:56:27 GMT -5
So me and the refuser were supposed to go to counseling for the last 3 weeks and 2 of those 3 weeks there was an excuse on his part as to why he couldn't go. I basically see this as another sign that nothing is going to change on his part. Last week Friday I finally had the "talk" with him and explained that I want a separation. Of course he broke down crying apologizing and asking for another chance. As sure as I am about my decision, I am incredibly sad and hurt. It feels like I failed at keeping the marriage together - even though I know he had a role to play too. I hate seeing him so sad and crying and the impact a separation will have on my kids is even worse to think about. I know I can't stay with him because I refuse to live a celibate life yet it seems so hard to leave. I wish there was an "easy button" ;/ To speak to the OP's original intent for this post..... What I went thru in the eventual dissolution of my marriage continues to be one of the most painful experience of my life. There was no "easy button". Like pinkskies , my ex and I were supposed to go to counseling after heartrending negotiations (The Talk) and at first I thought she was on-board with the idea. Never happened. First - "After the holiday's", a 3 month wait (yes, I was that stupid) during which my resentment levels skyrocketed. A few mentions of counseling during the holiday break/détente? Vehement denials that SHE needed it and was only agreeable because I "seemed" to need it. (Yes, I fell for that, figuring that she would find it usable, for the issues she had, as well as mine, if only I could drag her kicking and screaming into the first session). A flat out "I thought we were fixed!!! !!" on January 2nd when I mentioned I would start looking for a suitable counselor because I was "still not happy". Followed with another diatribe of "I'm only doing this because you're demanding I do. I don't need it!!!"
One week later, after her finding a note I'd written to myself stating "Should I take the time to get us into counseling to help her with her demons and she will have someone during the pain of me leaving her, or should I just tell her now that I no longer love her and I'm leaving" she confronted me with "I've fucking told you, I don't have any fucking demons!!! Fuck You!!" with no mention of the "I don't love her anymore" until later as an "oh by the way...what the fuck does THIS mean??" I answered with sad silence, which of course, was an answer.
One day later....the utter pain of leaving our marriage behind hit us both, like a ton of bricks.
There was never an "easy button". It hurt like hell the whole way....until I was, thank god, free.
That's when I hit the "I survived and I'm alive again" button.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Oct 11, 2016 19:49:33 GMT -5
Can you "repair" a marriage from the point where you're here, in ILIASM?I've seen marriages where the couple burned it completely to the ground, then rebuilt it from the ashes to something resembling the former structure, but on a burned foundation, damaged, but functional. I've seen marriages where one promised to "do better" and the other settled for a "tolerable" life. I've seen marriages where the one....gave up and sank into an abyss of numb. I've seen marriages where the sword of Damocles is ever present. Out of all of these, I believe the lack of truly honest and open communication, guided by love, could be what stopped them from reaching the heights that timeforliving2 was able to achieve. Are they a life? Are the a real marriage? Only they can answer that. Only they need to answer that. For themselves. (Edit: added "but functional" to burned down, rebuilt, damaged....thoe marriage) ** Wow, I'm out for a few days and I get multiple tags in the posts here. OK, I have to respond briefly though I have to log out shortly. baza I appreciate your compliments from a related post as well but this one appeared chronologically first so I'm responding to it. itsjustus, let me just say that, even in my turned around marriage... going from SM to some kind of normalcy... I personally wouldn't think of it as "reaching the heights" of some mountain top of a perfect marriage. It's far from it. I think it went from the precipice of hell (I was so close to walking) up to an "average" marriage. No higher. I still do not think we are soul mates, and I personally don't believe in that concept. I think there are varying degrees of compatibility. We have some things in common, but there are several other things that we have big differences... different likes... and things I didn't see at the time when I was young and naive and in love and when I proposed... at the mature age of 23. Regarding making the marriage work, it's like you all said so far... It takes good 2-way communication and some honest listening and trying to meet each other's needs, despite your differences. That is how we were able to make this thing work. That is how we got sex back in the marriage. When people talk about having sex, I'm sure most people think primarily of two things: (1) how often, and (2) what kind. Our turnaround occurred in January 2014 and I'd say on average we've had sex about once a week since then. Since January 2014 there's never been a gap where the sex slowed down to less than 2x/month, which would have been very rare. I will say for whatever reason we've been on a very slight decline but not too bad. My point of concern would be if we were averaging 3 times a month or less, which we're not. So just on quantity on the one hand it's been amazing... going from essentially zero to 50 times a year is like night and day. You need that to keep an intimate connection going. You need that in a marriage, hands down. But on the other hand... what kind of sex.... for us it's almost always scheduled and the same routine. This relates to the conservative upbringing my W had and it's tough to change. I'll have to have a separate post on the specifics as to why we haven't had some extended 1+ hour mind-blowing sex yet, but there are a few factors. It's possible for my W to change further but it takes work / effort... and for now, at least we have a basic routine going and, coming from a nearly 20 year SM I really can't complain much. It's currently way better than I've ever had it. Two way communication. Understanding. Compromise. Empathy. Willingness to change. Willingness to *give* to one another. That's where it's at. TL2 |
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!!" on January 2nd when I mentioned I would start looking for a suitable counselor because I was "still not happy". Followed with another diatribe of "I'm only doing this because you're demanding I do. I don't need it!!!"
