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Post by beachguy on Jan 13, 2017 18:58:35 GMT -5
" You keep using that name, I do not think that name means what you think it means". No love lost my friend. My apologies, as you can see I had already corrected it just before you posted. Brain fart, since I've been talking to both of you, I think.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 13, 2017 19:01:55 GMT -5
" You keep using that name, I do not think that name means what you think it means". No love lost my friend. My apologies, as you can see I had already corrected it just before you posted. Brain fart, since I've been talking to both of you, I think. Apology accepted, but not needed! I hope you are as big a "Princess Bride" fan as I am. "sleep well beachguy, I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
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Post by beachguy on Jan 13, 2017 19:17:48 GMT -5
Beach guy is in for a sleepless night. LOL!!!
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 13, 2017 23:56:19 GMT -5
"Perhaps the label does not matter" Yes. In terms of what will happen next, the label does not matter. I don't think you've shown any evidence that her behavior has changed- As far as it goes with me, I was first concerned with her behavior of not wanting and mostly not having sex with me, her husband. That changed for a while, and then reverted after the false happiness was purchased at a high price. At that point MY behavior changed. My behavior would no longer include being married to her. Maybe some people on a group think she is a frysexual or some such because she is the specific type of aesexual who doesn't want to bang me because she's married to me but would otherwise pull a train at a sex club. Maybe the term is helpful if I'm talking in coded language with an in group about the specific character or nature her not wanting to bang me. Maybe she'd love to wrap herself in such a term to enjoy some moral comfort in posing the behavior as an identity, subject to whatever sanctuary or accommodation one's political dogma affords that. But it doesn't matter a bit in terms of what was going to happen next - which is no sex with her and me, in either the short or the longer run. It's MY behavior that I control.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 14, 2017 8:47:37 GMT -5
"Perhaps the label does not matter" Yes. In terms of what will happen next, the label does not matter. I don't think you've shown any evidence that her behavior has changed- As far as it goes with me, I was first concerned with her behavior of not wanting and mostly not having sex with me, her husband. That changed for a while, and then reverted after the false happiness was purchased at a high price. At that point MY behavior changed. My behavior would no longer include being married to her. Maybe some people on a group think she is a frysexual or some such because she is the specific type of aesexual who doesn't want to bang me because she's married to me but would otherwise pull a train at a sex club. Maybe the term is helpful if I'm talking in coded language with an in group about the specific character or nature her not wanting to bang me. Maybe she'd love to wrap herself in such a term to enjoy some moral comfort in posing the behavior as an identity, subject to whatever sanctuary or accommodation one's political dogma affords that. But it doesn't matter a bit in terms of what was going to happen next - which is no sex with her and me, in either the short or the longer run. It's MY behavior that I control. Amen brother.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 14, 2017 12:59:47 GMT -5
Hey Apocrypha , good to meet you. You've probably not heard my story: been in a SM for 4-5 years (i lose track). Think i'm in an unusual boat in that my wife has actually expressed a desire for things to change, and maybe more importantly, shares my dissatisfaction for the state of our marriage now. She has taken responsibility for ignoring my pleas for change, and is finally hearing me and talking about it together. We've talked a lot for the last few weeks, in an ongoing conversation. She had a negative childhood and grew up with two narcissistic parents, one with borderline personality disorder, and is used to walking on eggshells and protecting herself for her own self-preservation. She's also very out of touch with her own emotions/feelings/defense mechanisms, just now willing to go into therapy for herself (we did couples, and it wasn't very useful for us, though it was for me). Problem with your analogy is that i'm NOT dating. I am not choosing the option of another person who is into me. I hear what you're saying, and you've been out of a marriage for a few years. I'm still in it. Still working on it. Still a bit hopeful (less so as I read more posts). So i will take someone at their word (trust) and believe that when they say they are willing to work on themselves and want to work on themselves to rebuild their self and our relationship, I think that's a good thing. It is an extremely tough spot for her--sex therapy, a lot of introspection, putting up clear boundaries with her parents, breaking down her barriers with me, getting in touch with a lot of repressed pain and avoidance issues. I don't know that she will stick with it. You can choose a new relationship if a person needs to be compelled to be intimate with you. Congrats. I'm not there yet--still giving a crap about the person who i chose who still loves me. It's a different conundrum. Nice to meet you as well @earthhorse . I was a frequent poster on the old ILIASM board at EP. Based on what you said, there are many commonalities between the scenario you stated and mine. For example, my wife also had profoundly dissatisfying childhood with parents modelling a dysfunctional marriage, the presence of chronic neurological differences and mood disorders, an intention in getting married to create a better family life than the one she came from, difficulty in seeing and changing her own behavior or taking responsibility for it on a wide scale - much more than sex-related activity. A propensity for spectacular passive-aggressive sabotage of any enterprise in which she became disillusioned or disengaged. She too, eventually copped to a great deal of awareness of her own dissatisfaction, with her lack of boundaries in her friendships and work relationships, with her high barriers with me, with her avoidance. Because, like you, I love her (or loved her), and because I was motivated to anticipate her perspective and the task ahead, I was compelled to take a much wider view of our long term relationship goals, and go to unusual lengths to test and arrive at the truth of our relationship, as well as taking her at her word. By that, I mean, after we tried everything else and failed (including several years of therapy, after she had an affair, after a failed reconciliation), she said it wasn't "me" - so much as losing track of her own sexuality. She needed to "Find it again, to bring it to me." With so much therapy under our belt, we got better at communicating the various aspects of our dysfunction and disconnection, as well as mapping out and doing the tasks that we identified, hoping to create the grounds for the attraction to ignite again. This communication and description, with empathy, kindness, mutual support, felt like progress compared to the shitshow it had been. I was invested in her narrative as she struggled through complicated pretzel twists of rationalization for having her cake and eating it. I agreed to opening our relationship a crack for a while, and it worked for a while - or seemed to. Neither of us WANTED to separate. We both felt pretty aware of the the problems and damage report in our relationship. My propensity for analytics, creative solutions, and big picture thinking translated into an extraordinarily high capacity for punishment and forgiveness as we sorted out this stuff over years, backing up on the flowchart, and trying different solutions. In hindsight, I would now cop to the succumbing to the seductive thought that I was the only man on the planet who knew her well enough and was invested enough, while also being able to "handle" the torture she dished out. There was a piece of me that defined my suitability for her by how much torture I could withstand without "taking it the wrong way" from her -- because only I understood her. When I finally said the words and meant it- it was like stepping off a cliff and going into freefall. But I had exhausted every conceivable alternative already, across several years, a lot of pain, and stories that when told, have made OTHER people cry. I don't know if ANYONE can really be TOLD this when they are in it (I couldn't - partly because I thought myself so clever at doing what nobody else would) is that an empathetic and intelligent person can get very invested in the diagnosis of a relationship problem without realizing that it's an autopsy. The relationship is already disconnected and flatlined - this isn't the beginning stage - it's the end of it, across years. You can both state regret about the results of that absence of life in that one thing, and you can state an intention to do things that you hope will restore it to what it used to be, or in my case, to create a new relationship entirely. But you still start from a flatline. My point in discussing my dating life wasn't to say that dating is similar to marriage. My point was about attraction, and the way it works, now that I've dated many women. Having an intention to eventually BE attracted to someone is sweet, and certainly is well-meaning and earnest. The naivete and futility of it doesn't become apparent until you enter the dating world, though, and understand how martial attraction is. When it's gone, the credits roll. If it isn't there, you don't meet for another coffee.
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 14, 2017 13:57:21 GMT -5
Hey Apocrypha , good to meet you. You've probably not heard my story: been in a SM for 4-5 years (i lose track). Think i'm in an unusual boat in that my wife has actually expressed a desire for things to change, and maybe more importantly, shares my dissatisfaction for the state of our marriage now. She has taken responsibility for ignoring my pleas for change, and is finally hearing me and talking about it together. We've talked a lot for the last few weeks, in an ongoing conversation. She had a negative childhood and grew up with two narcissistic parents, one with borderline personality disorder, and is used to walking on eggshells and protecting herself for her own self-preservation. She's also very out of touch with her own emotions/feelings/defense mechanisms, just now willing to go into therapy for herself (we did couples, and it wasn't very useful for us, though it was for me). Problem with your analogy is that i'm NOT dating. I am not choosing the option of another person who is into me. I hear what you're saying, and you've been out of a marriage for a few years. I'm still in it. Still working on it. Still a bit hopeful (less so as I read more posts). So i will take someone at their word (trust) and believe that when they say they are willing to work on themselves and want to work on themselves to rebuild their self and our relationship, I think that's a good thing. It is an extremely tough spot for her--sex therapy, a lot of introspection, putting up clear boundaries with her parents, breaking down her barriers with me, getting in touch with a lot of repressed pain and avoidance issues. I don't know that she will stick with it. You can choose a new relationship if a person needs to be compelled to be intimate with you. Congrats. I'm not there yet--still giving a crap about the person who i chose who still loves me. It's a different conundrum. Nice to meet you as well @earthhorse . I was a frequent poster on the old ILIASM board at EP. Based on what you said, there are many commonalities between the scenario you stated and mine. For example, my wife also had profoundly dissatisfying childhood with parents modelling a dysfunctional marriage, the presence of chronic neurological differences and mood disorders, an intention in getting married to create a better family life than the one she came from, difficulty in seeing and changing her own behavior or taking responsibility for it on a wide scale - much more than sex-related activity. A propensity for spectacular passive-aggressive sabotage of any enterprise in which she became disillusioned or disengaged. She too, eventually copped to a great deal of awareness of her own dissatisfaction, with her lack of boundaries in her friendships and work relationships, with her high barriers with me, with her avoidance. Because, like you, I love her (or loved her), and because I was motivated to anticipate her perspective and the task ahead, I was compelled to take a much wider view of our long term relationship goals, and go to unusual lengths to test and arrive at the truth of our relationship, as well as taking her at her word. By that, I mean, after we tried everything else and failed (including several years of therapy, after she had an affair, after a failed reconciliation), she said it wasn't "me" - so much as losing track of her own sexuality. She needed to "Find it again, to bring it to me." With so much therapy under our belt, we got better at communicating the various aspects of our dysfunction and disconnection, as well as mapping out and doing the tasks that we identified, hoping to create the grounds for the attraction to ignite again. This communication and description, with empathy, kindness, mutual support, felt like progress compared to the shitshow it had been. I was invested in her narrative as she struggled through complicated pretzel twists of rationalization for having her cake and eating it. I agreed to opening our relationship a crack for a while, and it worked for a while - or seemed to. Neither of us WANTED to separate. We both felt pretty aware of the the problems and damage report in our relationship. My propensity for analytics, creative solutions, and big picture thinking translated into an extraordinarily high capacity for punishment and forgiveness as we sorted out this stuff over years, backing up on the flowchart, and trying different solutions. In hindsight, I would now cop to the succumbing to the seductive thought that I was the only man on the planet who knew her well enough and was invested enough, while also being able to "handle" the torture she dished out. There was a piece of me that defined my suitability for her by how much torture I could withstand without "taking it the wrong way" from her -- because only I understood her. When I finally said the words and meant it- it was like stepping off a cliff and going into freefall. But I had exhausted every conceivable alternative already, across several years, a lot of pain, and stories that when told, have made OTHER people cry. I don't know if ANYONE can really be TOLD this when they are in it (I couldn't - partly because I thought myself so clever at doing what nobody else would) is that an empathetic and intelligent person can get very invested in the diagnosis of a relationship problem without realizing that it's an autopsy. The relationship is already disconnected and flatlined - this isn't the beginning stage - it's the end of it, across years. You can both state regret about the results of that absence of life in that one thing, and you can state an intention to do things that you hope will restore it to what it used to be, or in my case, to create a new relationship entirely. But you still start from a flatline. My point in discussing my dating life wasn't to say that dating is similar to marriage. My point was about attraction, and the way it works, now that I've dated many women. Having an intention to eventually BE attracted to someone is sweet, and certainly is well-meaning and earnest. The naivete and futility of it doesn't become apparent until you enter the dating world, though, and understand how martial attraction is. When it's gone, the credits roll. If it isn't there, you don't meet for another coffee. This was quite helpful to me today. I had one of the now serial discussions with my partner today, centering on the sexlessness, or more to the point, the kind of person in her mind I need to be/create if I expect her responsive desire to flower to my benefit. I no longer get angry, but I still resort to the mental quicksand of how I feel obligation for her, how it would be very difficult for her to ever find anyone to "take care of her" given her demands and her myriad unaddressed personal issues, her lack of sexual desire, the inumerable hurdles to intimacy, etc. But this does neither of us any favors. I am not in a privileged position to martyr myself so that she neither has to deal with her own issues, nor has the opportunity to meet someone who may be more of her speed. I hope that her lack of desire really is only toward me, and that she can find a more favorable relationship in the future. As I have said, no one should have to go through life hating, dreading, or withholding sex for whatever reason. SaveSave
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 14, 2017 14:29:47 GMT -5
This was quite helpful to me today. I had one of the now serial discussions with my partner today, centering on the sexlessness, or more to the point, the kind of person in her mind I need to be/create if I expect her responsive desire to flower to my benefit. I no longer get angry, but I still resort to the mental quicksand of how I feel obligation for her, how it would be very difficult for her to ever find anyone to "take care of her" given her demands and her myriad unaddressed personal issues, her lack of sexual desire, the inumerable hurdles to intimacy, etc. But this does neither of us any favors. I am not in a privileged position to martyr myself so that she neither has to deal with her own issues, nor has the opportunity to meet someone who may be more of her speed. I hope that her lack of desire really is only toward me, and that she can find a more favorable relationship in the future. As I have said, no one should have to go through life hating, dreading, or withholding sex for whatever reason. SaveSaveIt's SO HARD to get to that realization. The heart and mind does everything it can to make you throw the dice again and try a different formula. It is completely understandable. But buried in the discussion between you is the core of it - you and she both realize and agree that she isn't attracted to you in that way, and you don't have a sexual relationship. Think of people who DO have sexual relationships. Few are well-matched, and the single post marriage world is full of nutters, self-entitlement and total shit-shows - but they still want to bang, because they are attracted to each other. It doesn't matter that a person is handsome or objectively sexy. Plenty of those, who I'm not attracted to them in the way that I want to be sexually closer. It doesn't mean you are not an unattractive person if she isn't attracted to you. Whether her lack of desire is really just toward you or to everyone (which seems a less cruel story to believe in) doesn't matter, in terms of what's going on with you. If your concept of a marital partnership includes desire for your partner - which you have somehow managed to retain - it's worth noting its absence. Grafting together a Frankenstein checklist of relationship alterations and additions to improve it (once you have done the obvious things - made an effort to be physically appealing, and to be an interesting person apart from your role as partner), doesn't animate the corpse. Might make you better "partners" but it doesn't ignite attraction. That can get drawn into very sharp focus in the aftermath when you see her posting on Tinder in your area for casual sex with a boytoy after you've spent years moving a mountain.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 14, 2017 16:19:19 GMT -5
I am not in a privileged position to martyr myself so that she neither has to deal with her own issues, nor has the opportunity to meet someone who may be more of her speed. I hope that her lack of desire really is only toward me, and that she can find a more favorable relationship in the future. As I have said, no one should have to go through life hating, dreading, or withholding sex for whatever reason. SaveSaveMy therapist asked me one day, "If you found out your W had an affair, how would you handle it, and how would it make you feel?" My response was, " I would be glad! That would , at least help explain the "why". And good for her, at least she's happy, now I can go and be happy too." See, I was thinking about her happiness,(again) no remorse, payback, or guilt. Then comes the society factor. That would at least make it easier to explain a divorce, but that's not the case.
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Post by csl on Jan 14, 2017 17:35:28 GMT -5
^^^^^^ This! It's as if the phrase "holding her feet to the fire" doesn't apply in marriage!! Okay, once the INITIAL convo is had, it's not over. Just as in many of the tasks that undertake are broken down into observable action steps, "open to possibilities" and "willing to try" need to be taken up in convos as well. "what will show that you are willing?" "how will you demonstrate that you are open to possibilities?" "give me some ways of creating these possibilities." "help me know your signs of willingness" Keep the discussion going and moving along. It's not a "one and done" event, and if she says she's not comfortable talking about it, talk about it anyway. Refusal to continue discussion shows that claims of openness and willingness are false. csl , we had a conversation recently where i told her i was worried i was being strung along, that i didn't see any progress. And we actually had that conversation, "How do I know you are trying," "What does effort look like for you", "how can i show you I am thinking about this", "How can we talk about things so i don't think you're just sweeping it under the rug"? It was helpful. I'm getting much more direct an can say, "Look, this is what I want right now." We talked about creating a document that says, This is how we want our marriage to look. These are short term efforts to get here, and these are long term efforts." Even that has been helpful. Now this is just alright! If she engages in the process, then there's a good chance you can pull this one out of the fire.
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Post by csl on Jan 14, 2017 17:46:50 GMT -5
csl, i'd disagree on the compulsion thing. CHristianity teaches that men are the head of the marriage just as Christ is head of the church, and for wives to submit to their husbands. That's directed at women specifically. It then says men need to love their wives as christ loved the church, but since Christ never had to "submit" to the church, it does set up a one-way submission/compulsion. IMHO. When I was in the church, at least, I never once referred to it as imposing celibacy. It was always that wives needed to submit. There are many more passages (mostly written by Paul, who was a celibate) about women covering their heads, not speaking in church, not holding office, etc. The idea is that men run the show with the support of women. And the negotiation goes, if you're a wife not giving sex you can ask your husband to love you the way Christ loves the church. If you are a husband, you can expect your wife to submit to you. Same problem, I guess, just negotiated differently. But, I still think the wives' "compulsion" is Biblically mandated. As to the first part of your post, you should read my Bad Teaching series on my blog. I rip the LYWLCLTC teaching six ways to Sunday for its unbalanced teaching. At one point, I think I might have asked when did Jesus ever have Date Night for the church? There are other people out there addressing this problem; I like Paul Coughlin's No More Christian Nice Guy. And Eggerichs' Love & Respect. As for the writings of Paul and the contents that set people off? No biggie. You have to remember that Paul was writing to a Christian minority in a pagan empire, and telling them how they should live so as to be good citizens and yet faithful to God. I look at the Daniel story in the OT, in the first chapter, where Dan and 3 others are taken as captives/hostages to Babylon and put into training to become Babylonian civil servants. When presented with non-kosher food, Dan could have said, "Hell, no, we won't go!" and promptly been executed, a satisfied martyr. Instead, he asked the guy to test him on a ten-day kosher diet and see if they would be okay. Yeah, Paul could have gone full Occupy Babylon, but he'd have gotten a lot of people killed. This way, they found a way that they could live in Rome and NOT do as the Romans did.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 14, 2017 18:09:04 GMT -5
Now this is just alright! If she engages in the process, then there's a good chance you can pull this one out of the fire. That's interesting to me. I used to be on the EP board, and I recall another thread on this board accounting for successes out of the thousands. My family counselor, when asked, copped to the odds against restoring sexual desire, even when everybody owns their shit and has really great communication and habits. I wish I'd asked at the beginning instead of at the end, when we'd achieved those things but the desire was still not there. There are many examples of spouses "engaging in one process" or another. I don't recall seeing any - maybe one (hl42) - "pull it out of the fire" - assuming that means the result of having an invested and fulsome sexual relationship with one's partner. Wouldn't it be excellent in the singles/dating world, if you could "engage in a process" to desire someone who you don't? It would save so much heartache there too. I imagine you meet someone who is "good on paper", ticks all the boxes - lifestyle, romance etc - all the sensible things. You then both agree to engage in the process which produces mutual desire, as methodically as planting a garden or building a house. That would revolutionize the dating world. Instead though, all we have is the presence or not of the desire, which propels everything else - like whether you see them again.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 14, 2017 18:59:16 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit that Christian and Jews have a leg up over the rest, since both supposedly teach that sex is God's creation, but compulsion is not condoned by either. Why is it compulsion if we say that marriage is a sexual relationship, that imposing celibacy on a marriage is wrong is tantamount to demanding "spread 'em or else"? If you agree with me that imposing celibacy on a marriage is wrong, then why couching it as "Christian wives compelled?" csl , i'd disagree on the compulsion thing. CHristianity teaches that men are the head of the marriage just as Christ is head of the church, and for wives to submit to their husbands. That's directed at women specifically. It then says men need to love their wives as christ loved the church, but since Christ never had to "submit" to the church, it does set up a one-way submission/compulsion. IMHO. When I was in the church, at least, I never once referred to it as imposing celibacy. It was always that wives needed to submit. There are many more passages (mostly written by Paul, who was a celibate) about women covering their heads, not speaking in church, not holding office, etc. The idea is that men run the show with the support of women. And the negotiation goes, if you're a wife not giving sex you can ask your husband to love you the way Christ loves the church. If you are a husband, you can expect your wife to submit to you. Same problem, I guess, just negotiated differently. But, I still think the wives' "compulsion" is Biblically mandated. There is a part two to what Paul wrote. He tells men to love your wives. That does not say ,"be the leader". The word submit is used after the curse (the desire to control) has been shunned upon woman, in the garden of Eden. Men are asked to also submit to there wives. There needs to be an equal covenant, bartering ,and agreement like Ruth did. I mean, look how Ruth got her man, she climbed in bed with him, and layed down with him!. Submit is not a dirty word. It's something we all do, every day. It's part of following the rules of society, and a relationship. What I am trying to say is that the bible has far more instruction on having your sexual needs met, and the importance of a equal agreement in a relationship, than what the church asks you to believe, and follow. Church policies get infested with politics, power, greed, manipulation, and straying far from the truth. Thank God for the freedom to study it, and apply it for yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 1:25:46 GMT -5
Under the Brother @heraclitus model of trying to revive the marriage, you forget about your missus idiosyncrasies, as you can't control that anyway. Under that model, you concentrate on what you can control - yourself. Under that model, you conduct yourself like a husband exhibiting the actions and behaviours of a worthwhile spouse and person. In other words you sort your own shit out first.. Possibly, this may prompt the spouse to want to get herself fully involved with this person. Possibly, this may reveal that the spouse has no desire (or perhaps capability) to get involved with this person. And at that point, Brother heraclitus notes whether there is the partnership he wants or not. If there is not, then Brother heraclitus, with his shit all sorted out, dumps his missus and moves out in to an environment where his life partner skills are likely to be in great demand. Of course if Mrs heraclitus has taken her opportunity to sort her own shit out, she and heraclitus find themselves on a common path, and the revival (or more accurately "total reconstruction") of the relationship has taken place. And that may well mean a mutuality where their life partner skills have developed into something really worth preserving. PS - I hope Brother heraclitus will weigh in on this comment, as I don't want to be putting words in his mouth. What I've written above is what his plan of attack - as I understand it - is. And for what it's worth, it looks like a very sound plan to me. Baza, You are correct in how I'm approaching my marriage situation. You summarized it quite perfectly. I can tell you that change is happening in my house. I've never felt better. My feelings are no longer dependent on my wife. The wife has begin working on her own problems without me nagging. I hope we're setting out on the same path. I'll know over the next month or two if she is serious about changing. I'm still getting laid, which is a good thing. I even got a little kinky with her the other night. I remembered one of the reason why I married her
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