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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 13, 2017 14:12:38 GMT -5
@apocryphia - a hint: fraysexual - attraction fades after a bond is formed. Does that not precisely define your marriage? At each stage of the increasing bond, her interest declined. And that is exactly what happened to my STBX. Same thing. They all lost their sexual attraction as a bond formed. If you want to suggest they are not asexual you have to totally throw out everything we know about asexuality, including the entire AVEN site. And as attraction declines, I would suggest they simply become increasingly "responsive". So somebody has invented a word or a gender flavour to apply to the behaviour in my spouse that I found incompatible with my idea of a marriage as a sexual union. I'm fine with whatever you want to call it - I'm just asking - does it matter in terms of what you do? Suppose she's just gay? In my case, I spent quite a few years adapting to her saying "She wasn't all that into sex" period. She believed that. THere was no hindsight while it happened, tracking the sagging interest with marital investment across a decade. There was always an excuse that seemed perfectly reasonable to her each time, finally ending at "We just have different sex drives". No, not really. I've seen it, and from what I've discerned post sep - she's got all kinds of boyfriends. Great for her! But it ain't aesexual, unless you by aesexual, you mean "desires and seeks sex with partners" We can get into a fine mince as to whether or not self-rationalizing idealogues, or some poor misunderstood gender requires one label or another label, but it doesn't address the behaviour and the consequences. |
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Post by novembercomingfire on Jan 13, 2017 14:17:43 GMT -5
Believe it or not, nothing you describe is counter to some flavor of asexuality. According to the self identifying asexuals on that site that have created labels for dozens of differing flavors. Ok? Given people's capacity for self-delusion to avoid confronting uncomfortable truths, like "I don't love my partner" or "I love my partner as a sibling or as a friend", or "I don't forgive my partner for what they did" I don't afford much credence to "self-identifying" labels, and the couching of a behaviour into identity-politics. I was off sex myself for a good long while, so I'm not pulling this out of my butt. And, I've seen my partner cling to this raft for quite a long time, and taken a sanctimonious role in adapting my marriage to accommodate the needs of her "complicated sexuality". I have literally been called a "saint" by most of the people who know us both for the rare lengths I've gone to, even by this board's standards. But suppose you are correct, and there are all these self-organizing tribes of people who have developed correct labels to attach to the "condition" of not wanting sex with one's partner. Suppose there is an accepted medical orthodoxy to the condition. It still starts with the condition of not desiring your spouse - and the lack of fruits of that desire. And it comes down to what you are going to do about it. If I attend a ballet dance recital and the performer is paralyzed from polio, is the performance really ballet? Is the performance, if not ballet, something I want to see? It's not the performer's fault they had polio. I certainly would understand the heartbreaking fantasy of expressing myself as a dancer if I was paralyzed, but what is your obligation as an audience member, or teacher, in supporting such an enterprise. Across a lifetime. To the extent that you would never see another performance? Likewise, does your most basic concept of what a marriage is include sexual expression with your partner? If your partner does not desire sex with you through no fault of their own, but wishes that they did (which would result in them having sex with you), then what is the nature of your relationship? This is excellent. I think that you neatly sum up the issue. My sexless marriage may be a partnership. And that may be OK, or at least acceptable to me now. But it isn't a marriage. Not to me. It is to my partner. We don't share the same point of view as to what it all means or how to label or characterize this. But who cares. I post here. Most of what I post comes down to complaining. I complain here because as a result of a fucked up codependent relationship I have no real friends and hence no one to talk to about what complete empty nonsense my life is. My wife doesn't wish to have sex with me. She never has wished to have sex with me, and notwithstanding 25+ years of my protests to the contrary and her pointless denials, she will never wish to have sex with me. What is the reason for this? How the hell would I know. It isn't my responsibility. It is my problem as long as I choose to stick it out, but it never was, isn't and never will be my responsibility. I have spent enough of my life trying to figure out the why, so I could figure out how to make things better, which is to say how to make things better for me. Only now, when it is likely too late (at least in my mind) for a new beginning and a life more to my liking, do I get a glimpse of reality: it doesn't matter. It isn't my responsibility. So this means that it all can be reduced to a point: How much am I willing to take? We all have a breaking point. But at any given moment the decision is mine. How much am I willing to take. She won't change. She doesn't care to change. And she never will care to change. The bottom line is that we will not be having regular, exotic, and carefree sex as I would like - or any other kind of sex for that matter, and when I am no longer willing to take this, I will mosey out the door. That is my responsibility. Thus whether I am happy or not is my responsibility as well. Today I choose to be here. Tomorrow, who cares. So I am probably more likely than most to get caught up in naming, categorizing, and cataloging behaviors. In trying to figure out the whys and the hows. But after all this time it just doesn't matter and never will. Here we are. For as long as I choose to remain here. I probably won't stop complaining though. My apologies in advance ... SaveSave |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 13, 2017 14:18:23 GMT -5
@apocryphia - a hint: fraysexual - attraction fades after a bond is formed. Does that not precisely define your marriage? At each stage of the increasing bond, her interest declined. And that is exactly what happened to my STBX. Same thing. They all lost their sexual attraction as a bond formed. If you want to suggest they are not asexual you have to totally throw out everything we know about asexuality, including the entire AVEN site. And as attraction declines, I would suggest they simply become increasingly "responsive". So somebody has invented a word or a gender flavour to apply to the behaviour in my spouse that I found incompatible with my idea of a marriage as a sexual union. I'm fine with whatever you want to call it - I'm just asking - does it matter in terms of what you do? Suppose she's just gay? In my case, I spent quite a few years adapting to her saying "She wasn't all that into sex" period. She believed that. THere was no hindsight while it happened, tracking the sagging interest with marital investment across a decade. There was always an excuse that seemed perfectly reasonable to her each time, finally ending at "We just have different sex drives". No, not really. I've seen it, and from what I've discerned post sep - she's got all kinds of boyfriends. Great for her! But it ain't aesexual, unless you by aesexual, you mean "desires and seeks sex with partners" We can get into a fine mince as to whether or not self-rationalizing idealogues, or some poor misunderstood gender requires one label or another label, but it doesn't address the behaviour and the consequences. No, I'm not hung up on labels. Asexuality, in all it's flavors, is a good model to describe what most of us are going through here. People can research it on the internet. It is an effective way to communicate. I don't care if my STBX is intimacy averse, fraysexual, gay or just not into it. As I said in my last post, my attitude now is very hard lined- my needs are just as important as hers, regardless of labels. And for the most part, regardless of the reasons. Mainly because I was BS'd with false reasons for 30 years. Reasons don't work with me anymore. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 13, 2017 14:22:49 GMT -5
Apocrypha said "concept of what a marriage is include sexual expression with your partner? If your partner does not desire sex with you through no fault of their own, but wishes that they did (which would result in them having sex with you), then what is the nature of your relationship? " In my opinion to answer your two questions: 1) yes the concept of marriage or any romantic relationship includes a sexual expression, that is a non negotiable for my future. In the case of a bait and switch there was a deception, a false advertising but who gets married and the first year a divorce over a lack of sex because it's humiliating and just a psychological mindfuck where you keep yourself trapped. 2) It will be made clear to any future partners that because of my history a sexless relationship would not be tolerated. Even if there are medical issues where he couldn't get hard and I loved him he still has a mouth and hands. Even if you can't stir the peanut butter jar you can still lick it. That's just my personal take on your questions. As far as a wheel chair ballet performance - I'm not interested. She could control the lights or the sound system.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 13, 2017 14:32:30 GMT -5
I post here. Most of what I post comes down to complaining. I complain here because as a result of a fucked up codependent relationship I have no real friends and hence no one to talk to about what complete empty nonsense my life is. ... So I am probably more likely than most to get caught up in naming, categorizing, and cataloging behaviors. In trying to figure out the whys and the hows. But after all this time it just doesn't matter and never will. Here we are. For as long as I choose to remain here. Strong words, November! Feel them! You are defogging. It took me a long time as well. You are identifying a lack of your own life outside the marriage as well. That's a good start on the road to change. In the life you create away from this shithole, you are going to want friends and those come through doing activities, which you also will want. Most successful people after divorce look for things that interest them - often when they need to be away from the house - and join them. The friends come from the relationships that you discover there. You don't need to wait until you split to start on all that. |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 13, 2017 14:34:36 GMT -5
Apocrypha said "concept of what a marriage is include sexual expression with your partner? If your partner does not desire sex with you through no fault of their own, but wishes that they did (which would result in them having sex with you), then what is the nature of your relationship? " In my opinion to answer your two questions: 1) yes the concept of marriage or any romantic relationship includes a sexual expression, that is a non negotiable for my future. In the case of a bait and switch there was a deception, a false advertising but who gets married and the first year a divorce over a lack of sex because it's humiliating and just a psychological mindfuck where you keep yourself trapped. 2) It will be made clear to any future partners that because of my history a sexless relationship would not be tolerated. Even if there are medical issues where he couldn't get hard and I loved him he still has a mouth and hands. Even if you can't stir the peanut butter jar you can still lick it. That's just my personal take on your questions. As far as a wheel chair ballet performance - I'm not interested. She could control the lights or the sound system. What if they have a peanut allergy?  |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 13, 2017 14:39:16 GMT -5
I post here. Most of what I post comes down to complaining. I complain here because as a result of a fucked up codependent relationship I have no real friends and hence no one to talk to about what complete empty nonsense my life is. ... So I am probably more likely than most to get caught up in naming, categorizing, and cataloging behaviors. In trying to figure out the whys and the hows. But after all this time it just doesn't matter and never will. Here we are. For as long as I choose to remain here. Strong words, November! Feel them! You are defogging. It took me a long time as well. You are identifying a lack of your own life outside the marriage as well. That's a good start on the road to change. In the life you create away from this shithole, you are going to want friends and those come through doing activities, which you also will want. Most successful people after divorce look for things that interest them - often when they need to be away from the house - and join them. The friends come from the relationships that you discover there. You don't need to wait until you split to start on all that. I would go a step further and say that you shouldn't wait to start on that. Seeing that there is life at the end of this train wreck and starting to build it will help you get through it. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 13, 2017 14:40:20 GMT -5
Apocrypha said "concept of what a marriage is include sexual expression with your partner? If your partner does not desire sex with you through no fault of their own, but wishes that they did (which would result in them having sex with you), then what is the nature of your relationship? " In my opinion to answer your two questions: 1) yes the concept of marriage or any romantic relationship includes a sexual expression, that is a non negotiable for my future. In the case of a bait and switch there was a deception, a false advertising but who gets married and the first year a divorce over a lack of sex because it's humiliating and just a psychological mindfuck where you keep yourself trapped. 2) It will be made clear to any future partners that because of my history a sexless relationship would not be tolerated. Even if there are medical issues where he couldn't get hard and I loved him he still has a mouth and hands. Even if you can't stir the peanut butter jar you can still lick it. That's just my personal take on your questions. As far as a wheel chair ballet performance - I'm not interested. She could control the lights or the sound system. What if they have a peanut allergy? I would know that before they stopped fucking me!! Lol That's one way to get out of a SM lol My defense would be temporary insanity, at least 2 jurors would be in a SM and not convict me on account of they understand the torture of a SM. |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 13, 2017 15:31:03 GMT -5
What if they have a peanut allergy? I would know that before they stopped fucking me!! Lol That's one way to get out of a SM lol My defense would be temporary insanity, at least 2 jurors would be in a SM and not convict me on account of they understand the torture of a SM. Ok, what if they licked licking the jar but had a peanut sized dick? |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 13, 2017 15:42:21 GMT -5
I would know that before they stopped fucking me!! Lol That's one way to get out of a SM lol My defense would be temporary insanity, at least 2 jurors would be in a SM and not convict me on account of they understand the torture of a SM. Ok, what if they licked licking the jar but had a peanut sized dick? I can speak to that from actual experience since I'm dating: I swear I think I met a man with the smallest dick. He did like oral and he was ok at it not mind blowing because he didn't stay down there long enough anyway I'm not a thin woman there was only one position we could do because his dick wouldn't reach. So we had two rounds of sex. Then while he's getting dressed he's asking me questions to try to know me better and honestly all he wanted was a hookup and I figured I'd try him out, so all I can think of while he's asking me a question is "this guy is getting the short version hehe because I won't be seeing him again". He texted me two more times I didn't respond. So in summary it's about compatibility and I'm not compatible with a 2 inch penis. Sorry if tmi just keeping it real. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 13, 2017 15:46:56 GMT -5
Likewise, does your most basic concept of what a marriage is include sexual expression with your partner? If your partner does not desire sex with you through no fault of their own, but wishes that they did (which would result in them having sex with you), then what is the nature of your relationship? And secondly, my STBX tried to BS me with all sorts of "no fault of her own" stuff, in fact it was her primary strategy of avoidance. I have a need for quality partnered sex My partner has a need for celibacy You can call me a prick if you want, but after wasting 30 of the best years of my life ignoring my needs, I decided that my need is equally as important as her need. And I believe in the idea that there is an expectation of mutually wanted sex within marriage. Marriage is not a license to enforce celibacy. Or misery. So let the chips fall where they will. Add onto the avoidance, a key factor I read on here over and over again, low and behold we had a child! Well I have a whole basketball team with cheerleaders, and a coach! (through natural birth, and adoption) A very useful weapon in extending the Golden Uterus Syndrome, and the need for celibacy. shrink4men.com/2011/05/17/does-your-wife-or-ex-wife-have-a-golden-uterus-complex-15-characteristics-of-the-golden-uterus/More of the trashing of marriage vows, To have and to hold, to cherish. I have a need for quality partnered sex. That's a strong wonderful gift, that should be cherished, held onto by giving back in return, and kept in continuous check through shared intimacy. I DESERVE THAT! and so will the next person who gets to receive it. |
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Post by shamwow on Jan 13, 2017 15:51:39 GMT -5
Ok, what if they licked licking the jar but had a peanut sized dick? I can speak to that from actual experience since I'm dating: I swear I think I met a man with the smallest dick. He did like oral and he was ok at it not mind blowing because he didn't stay down there long enough anyway I'm not a thin woman there was only one position we could do because his dick wouldn't reach. So we had two rounds of sex. Then while he's getting dressed he's asking me questions to try to know me better and honestly all he wanted was a hookup and I figured I'd try him out, so all I can think of while he's asking me a question is "this guy is getting the short version hehe because I won't be seeing him again". He texted me two more times I didn't respond. So in summary it's about compatibility and I'm not compatible with a 2 inch penis. Sorry if tmi just keeping it real. LOL fair enough. We can handle the truth here. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 13, 2017 17:33:14 GMT -5
Apocrypha - a hint: fraysexual - attraction fades after a bond is formed. Does that not precisely define your marriage? At each stage of the increasing bond, her interest declined. And that is exactly what happened to my STBX. Same thing. They all lost their sexual attraction as a bond formed. If you want to suggest they are not asexual you have to totally throw out everything we know about asexuality, including the entire AVEN site. And as attraction declines, I would suggest they simply become increasingly "responsive". So somebody has invented a word or a gender flavour to apply to the behaviour in my spouse that I found incompatible with my idea of a marriage as a sexual union. I'm fine with whatever you want to call it - I'm just asking - does it matter in terms of what you do? Suppose she's just gay? In my case, I spent quite a few years adapting to her saying "She wasn't all that into sex" period. She believed that. THere was no hindsight while it happened, tracking the sagging interest with marital investment across a decade. There was always an excuse that seemed perfectly reasonable to her each time, finally ending at "We just have different sex drives". No, not really. I've seen it, and from what I've discerned post sep - she's got all kinds of boyfriends. Great for her! But it ain't aesexual, unless you by aesexual, you mean "desires and seeks sex with partners" We can get into a fine mince as to whether or not self-rationalizing idealogues, or some poor misunderstood gender requires one label or another label, but it doesn't address the behaviour and the consequences. , nothing you said just above suggests your ex's current BF won't end up in the same boat she put you in. They are boyfriends, no big commitment yet? When you were just her boyfriend wasn't she fucking your brains out until the wedding? That has always been chalked off as "intimacy aversion". The asexual community sees it as "fraysexuality". Both can involve fucking people into commitments and then leaving them high and dry. Perhaps the label does not matter, but it is a behavior pattern repeated over and over in this forum (including me). Labels do help when communicating these things. And I think it helps clear a lot of fog and confusion. You view your wife as sexual now. I don't. I don't think you've shown any evidence that her behavior has changed- it will take the test of time (and a wedding for her). I think that pattern of fucking their way to a marriage and then leaving their spouses high and dry is a sexual dysfunction. It's not normal. It rates a label or two, like any other disease. The pattern I experienced, and you experienced, kept me very confused for decades. When the whole thing clicked for me, as I'm struggling to explain here. The idea that yes, she is asexual, despite fucking my brains out on the first date and then for some time, started to make sense. A lot of sense. |
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Post by beachguy on Jan 13, 2017 18:29:49 GMT -5
Apocrypha, I'm going to try, one more time, to explain why your ex is asexual and I don't care how many BFs she's fucking into oblivion at the moment - keeping in mind that if her BFs are already getting unhappy with things it is very unlikely they are confiding that in you  When you read stories here, you find a common denominator among us refused. We all find sex to be a critical bonding experience with our lovers. It's not just sex, it is a cornucopia of positive emotions. If you go read a bunch of stories on AVEN you will find what at first is a confusing disarray of behaviors. Some are so repulsed by sex they are now and will always be virgins. Others tried once or twice, but sorry, not for me. They never make it into relationships with sexuals. But there are other asexuals that claim they are "sex neutral". And some of them have A LOT of sex, but in only certain (rare) circumstances, particularly early in new relationships (do you see the bait of the bait N switch developing?). If you think asexuals do not have sex, or cannot appear to enjoy sex, you are very, very wrong. It isn't that simple. There is, however, a very common denominator among asexuals that have sex, regardless of the particulars of their flavor. For them, all of them, sex is just sex. There is no emotional bonding. Regardless of how they sub-label themselves, none of them can comprehend the idea of the bonding we get from sex. Many like to deny it exists among sexuals. This is a hugely BFD. Nor do they view sex as something positive in a relationship. It's just sex, something they do to please their partners. There is no real emotion in it. In fact, most or all of them view sex as "polluting" true romantic relationships. Something that gets in the way of the important stuff. It is also always discussed that sex is a draining experience. While we sexuals are feeding off our romantic sexual experiences, they are being drained because there is nothing in it other than an activity that they find no great value in. They view it no differently than if they are meh about pizza, but their partners really bond with them when they share a pizza. So they eat pizza to make them happy. No more or less emotion than sex for them. And in that case I am quite sure that once the ring is on their finger, they tell their partner to go get their own pizza, they're having pasta instead. The honeymoon's over  When your ex was fucking your brains out, she was not bonding with you, although you were most likely bonding with her through sex. She got something out of it (the bait part?), but it isn't emotional bonding. She may be out there fucking 5 different guys right now, but she isn't bonding with them. She's just making them happy in order to get something else out of the relationship. And it may be a romantic interest, it just isn't quite what we perceive to be a romantic interest (as best I understand it at this point in time). My wife never liked cuddling or spooning after sex. Not even in the early days just after we met, and the first thing that stopped in our relationship was physical closeness when we went to sleep, even after having sex. And after we had sex, even before we were married, she had no desire to be close to me. She would get up as quickly as she could, clean herself up, put clothes on and come back to bed, but not cuddle or spoon. She actually seemed uncomfortable laying in my arms after we were done; she couldn't wait to clean up. She tried to tell me she had to clean up quickly for some sort of hygienic reasons. Or maybe she was averse to the idea of my cum inside her? The ladies here can opine on that one. I understand now that that was a HUGE red flag. It always bothered me, even back when it started happening but I failed to understand the import of it. Now I get it. Now, some asexuals do like to cuddle so that is not a guaranteed red flag. But my wife's particular dysfunction resulted in that, and obviously it is something I can discuss with experience. YMMV I hope this is becoming clearer to you. Anyone that gets out of their current mess should get to understand this because it might save them from a second round of misery. That's why I think this is far more than "just a label".
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 13, 2017 18:52:52 GMT -5
" You keep using that name, I do not think that name means what you think it means". No love lost my friend.  |
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