|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 18, 2020 16:13:27 GMT -5
That sucks, but clearly it wasn't the right situation if that's what he did to you. It will all work out. Don't give up! This has been LITERALLY every guy I’ve dated since my divorce. Every last one has been avoidant and then bailed. Are all 40-something men avoidant, or is it just here in CA? The trick is to identify the avoidant ones before you get attached. I take it you are familiar with attachment theory and family of origin? There's a pretty good book that I can't put my hands on right now that I have at home that teaches you how to identify someone's attachment style pretty quickly. You might be well served by giving it a read if you never have. If you want the name of it, let me know and I'll find it in my library at home.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 18, 2020 9:59:14 GMT -5
Annmnnnnnnd he’s ghosting me. After I arranged for my mom to take my son a few days a week so we could spend time together. Fuck. The ironic thing about being used for sex is that I no longer want it, since having sex apparently, ultimately drives people apart. Either way, I solved my sexless marriage issue. That sucks, but clearly it wasn't the right situation if that's what he did to you. It will all work out. Don't give up!
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 17, 2020 11:28:37 GMT -5
Hiker64, I am not sure it is as much about giving an ultimatum as making sure you both still want the same things in your marriage without it seeming like an ultimatum if that makes any sense. Giving an ultimatum implies "change or else" and is liable to create even more animosity. Having an open discussion about whether you both still want the same things isn't nearly as much pressure and you can still add a timeline to that discussion. I needed to make sure my wife and I were on the same page and interested in working toward the same goal as everything else seemed to be more important to her lately (kids, church, hanging out with friends, etc.). So I started a discussion with my wife (on our anniversary no less) that I didn't feel I could continue in our marriage they way it currently stood. I told her that if we were still in this place a year from now, we were going to have to have a very difficult discussion about the future of our marriage and our family.
I asked her if she was interested in staying married, etc. I even asked if she was interested in separating, divorcing, sleeping with or dating someone else, etc. I was open to discussing anything she may have been interested in talking about, how she was feeling, or any other marital options she might be entertaining. I told her if she was interested in separating or divorcing, to just let me know and be honest. I'm a big boy, I can handle it. I talked about what a separation would look like if we decide to go that route, how our lives would change, how the family home would have to be sold if we separated or divorced, how we would have to split time with out kids, etc. At the end I told her that I still loved her and wanted us to work on our marriage together but that I wasn't going to wait forever if I didn't feel she loved me anymore. We agreed to be monogamous, not celibate and I reminded her that we used to have a pretty good sex life and I wanted to get that back. I realize that may have been pretty blunt, but I didn't make it an accusatory conversation and I didn't raise my voice.
I think maybe it woke her up a bit as she said "Wow, you've really given this some thought". I told her yes, I have. We've been stuck in a sexless marriage for over 10 years. That's a lot of time to do some thinking. Since that discussion, things have been much better between us. I think she sees that I am trying and that I still love her, but that she needs to work on our marriage as well and not let everything else take priority over it. She's even told the counselor she's felt the past few weeks have been very good. We've had a few good dates since then and things are moving in the right direction. Maybe you just need to have a frank conversation with your wife (again, in a loving way), to see where things stand.
You mentioned that you tried counseling. Did you pick the counselor or did she? Has she gone to see the counselor alone or are you always going together? You might see if there is a counselor more to her liking and encourage her to go to the counselor a few times alone so she can talk about things without feeling the pressure of you there as well. We were seeing a counselor, but not with any frequency, which I believe was causing part of the issue. We'd begin working on something and then not go back to the counselor for two months so we "lost traction" on that item. I've asked that we start seeing the counselor weekly or every few weeks, which has kept us on task more.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 17, 2020 10:49:55 GMT -5
I am struggling with this very thing right now. I have made many attempts, to understand, change, add, try to listen, speak, speak louder, all over like a two year period. Now I’m just sitting, pondering, working everything over and over. Right now I’m just like Hachiko. I wait. Unlike Hachiko, I won’t sit here forever. Tell your spouse exactly how disconnected you feel (in a loving way, not an angry one) and ask what they believe you could do so they feel more connected to you - i.e. what do they need from you for your relationship to evolve from where it is now? If they can answer that question, see if it's something you can work on together. Also offer what you feel you need from them to be more connected if they ask (or don't ask), it's up to you. If either of you can't or won't answer that question, it might be time to see a professional if you are interested in saving your marriage. They key is not to turn it into a argument. Arguments tend to spiral into a stalemate which doesn't resolve anything and just creates more hard feelings and animosity. It should be a frank and loving discussion of how you can move your relationship forward. Any loving couple should want that.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 15, 2020 8:43:59 GMT -5
Hiker64, you indicated you originally had good intimacy and were very close and that you are now in a significant amount of pain because of your lack of intimacy. Have you actually tried to talk to her about your loss of intimacy - not from a lack of sexual intimacy standpoint specifically but from a loss of connection standpoint? Without constant relationship maintenance and communication, people seem to grow apart as the distractions of life intercede. My wife and I are in the same boat. Neither one of us was happy with what our relationship had become after 25 years. She felt a loss of emotional connection. I was frustrated over the lack of sexual intimacy. We both agreed that we never would have ended up in the relationship stalemate we found ourselves in if we had continued to openly discuss our issues with each other and work on them together. With the help of a counselor we've begun to repair the relationship and I have seen some significant movement, specifically over the past few weeks. We've only scratched the surface at this point, but I am no longer as anxious and angry as I was as I now see some of the causes behind the situation and feel like I am working with my wife to fix them. If you don't start that discussion (and approach it from a loving standpoint not an accusatory one), you won't ever get on the road to fixing it. At least you might get an idea where she stands and whether there is hope at fixing it. She might feel as much pain as you do, but just doesn't know how to approach you about it. I'm happy to pass along the name of a great counselor if you are both interested or if you are interested in speaking with him to get an idea of where to start.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 14, 2020 19:02:20 GMT -5
I'm lonely. We aren't really affectionate to each other.... The bottom line is that you can be miserable forever if you are afraid or unwilling to make a change or at least try to make a change. During that time, life will pass you by if you let it. Trust me, I know. My wife and I spent the better part of our entire marriage to date (21 years) acting like everything was fine when it wasn't. We stopped talking about issues that were bothering us and stopped fighting for each other and our marriage. Making that change can be very difficult because it requires communication from both parties and a commitment to first off saving the marriage and then making it stronger and it requires you to be emotionally vulnerable to a spouse that you may feel doesn't love you or love you enough at the time these discussions start. If either party isn't interested in engaging in these discussions and fighting for the marriage, you'd need to ask yourself (or your spouse) some hard questions as to why they aren't willing and consider the impacts that divorce or separation will have on your family, finances, etc. I'm curious if you have ever mentioned your comment above to your wife in a loving way? The key is in a loving way, not in an accusatory one (i.e. starting by saying "We never have sex any more" isn't the way to begin the conversation.) If you said "Honey, I feel like we are emotionally disconnected with everything life, the kids, etc. have thrown at us over the last several years and it feels very lonely. Are you feeling this at all? I just wanted you to know that I love you very much and I am really wondering what we can do to reconnect. What do you need from me to feel more connected in our marriage?" (or something along those lines). I know as guys we aren't not good at this stuff (or at least I wasn't originally in my case, but I am getting much better), but as corny as it may sound, it does make a difference and has for me personally once I began really having these hard discussions with my wife. If nothing else, hopefully it gets you both talking and on the same page about how you feel individually and about your marriage and what you need to do to reconnect with each other. You may learn she loves you very much and feels like you have just grown apart but that she wants to reconnect but just doesn't know how (which you can then work on together). You may also find out that you aren't in love anymore and that you have both realized that and that you have both just been biding your time rather that having to make a difficult decision to end the marriage. Or, you might find that you are somewhere in the middle, with the opportunity to try to grow closer together again and save your marriage. In any case, you now know where you stand, what some of the issues bothering your wife may be and she has now learned some of the things you are concerned with. You have reached out to her emotionally and at least moved forward rather than being mired in a sexless marriage with the taboo elephant in the room that you can't talk about. In all likelihood, there are more issues at play that are having an impact on making your marriage sexless but you won't know if you don't start that discussion and try to rebuild the connection. I highly recommend a book called "Hold Me Tight" by Dr. Sue Johnson. That book helped me see how several of these difficult discussions in marriage can lead into never ending spirals and it helps you work through those spirals to make them productive discussions that bring you closer together. When it comes to saving a marriage that is already sexless, you have to ask what do I have to lose if I don't at least try. If my marriage ultimately doesn't work out, I know that I gave 100% trying to fix it and left it all on the table so to speak. Personally, I believe as long as we are talking, we are working on fixing it. If you aren't talking about the issues, you aren't working on fixing said issues and your feelings of being alone and not feeling loved (and certainly not having meaningful sex) will continue indefinitely.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 10, 2020 15:18:44 GMT -5
Life is too short to hold it in so if you want to have a fighting chance at fixing anything, I believe you need to try and never give up trying. In my mind and probably a vast oversimplification, there are two types of sexless marriages - ones that were good and sex-filled (or at least enough sex to keep both parties somewhat happy) originally and something happened to change that and ones that have always been sexless. I believe you can absolutely fix the first if your partner is committed to fixing it also, but are probably unlikely to fix the second if being sexless is a problem for you and/or your spouse.
Personally, I fall into the first camp. My sex life with my wife was pretty good for years until kids came into the picture. Then I started a business, we went through some deaths in the family, health issues, an affair, etc. Bottom line, we grew apart and before we knew it, we were on opposite sides of a wide chasm a decade plus in the making. Sex for her wasn't (and still isn't) an option because we didn't have the emotional bond. As angry and sad as it made me and sometimes still makes me, I can see how we got where we are. During this process, I've counted my marriage down and out at least three times because it's been virtually sexless for ten years and absolutely completely devoid of sex for the past three. However, as crazy as it seems, I see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel (and no, it isn't a train!). We've been in counseling for three years (off and on) and seemed to be making small steps of progress, but were still stuck in the ruts of past anger, resentment, fears, etc. We've begun to make some significant progress on those issues and are now working to speed up the progress on resolving some of those issues. Things are starting to trend in the right direction. We are dating again and making time to do more things together. She is starting to listen to the things that I have expressed are important to me and vice versa. Sex isn't on the menu now, but I can see she is starting to be more open to the idea of us reconnecting on that front as well. I am not pushing on that as I think she still needs some time to get there, but I am working on reconnecting us the best I can and I see she is trying as well, which gives me hope.
If we don't get back there, at least I know we both tried. Sitting in silence and internalizing the suffering would be excruciating, especially if you have attempted to raise your concerns and the pain you are dealing with to your spouse and they have ignored you. I would ask that if you are in that position, please talk to someone so you aren't stuck in limbo. Move forward with your life and be the best person you can be. If there are no signs it will ever get better, you owe it to yourself to be happy.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 5, 2020 16:26:26 GMT -5
DryCreek That's why I can't understand why any man marries a non working woman. I would never marry a non-working woman, but my wife was working at the time we got married. She stopped when we started having kids and hasn't gone back as our kids are homeschooled. I'm curious what she plans to do with her life once are youngest kid is off to college. I hope she doesn't think she is going to sit around and just hang out with friends and do fun stuff all day.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 5, 2020 16:22:57 GMT -5
"Life is entirely too short to live with a spouse who is not attracted to you enough to fuck you. You signed up for monogamy, not celibacy."
That pretty much hits the nail on the head.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 3, 2020 14:51:27 GMT -5
Checks with lots of zeros (add at least six probably in total) after them leaving my possession = "screwed financially". So no, I won't be destitute, but all the hard work I have put in to provide a comfortable life for my family and a nice retirement where we can go where we please and stay if we like it would need to be drastically overhauled. Frankly, to me, it doesn't seem fair given how much grief my wife has given me over starting a business and my career. So ya, right now, it isn't worth it to me to take the financial and emotional hit to my family.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 3, 2020 10:20:07 GMT -5
Your Scores 11 Words of Affirmation 10 Physical Touch 5 Acts of Service 4 Quality Time 0 Receiving Gifts So apparently I really like compliments/support and sex. I am definitely not an insecure person (at least I don't see myself as one, present sexless marriage issues excluded), so the first one surprised me until I thought about some of the conversations my wife and I recently had. She basically completely devalued me building a successful business, building her a beautiful house, etc. by indicating that "none of that matters to her". She's the one that wanted to build the new house btw. I was perfectly happy living in the old one. I'm sure some of my feelings over being irked about her comments weighed on my response (i.e. not feeling like I have a supportive spouse right now). I would normally probably rank physical touch as the most important. I was surprised quality time was ranked so low. Maybe if I was having more sex, physical touch would be lower on the list and quality time would be higher? So I just took the test again almost exactly two years later (6/3/20). The test results are in a slightly different format with percentages now, but they have remained relatively constant in terms of results other than Quality time jumping up one spot: 35% Words of affirmation 32% Physical touch 19% Quality time 13% Acts of Service 0% Gifts
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 3, 2020 10:07:56 GMT -5
flyingsolo homeschooling, eh? Deeply into her interpretation. Of Christianity as it benefits her views? Kinda. We didn't homeschool for religious reasons and it wasn't something we ever thought we'd do. All of our kids are ahead of where they would be in a public school and it was holding my son back. He is technically a junior in age but just graduated high school. With regard to faith, I think those of us that do believe tend to interpret various aspects of religion as we see them and as they tend to align with our views and beliefs. I just have an issue with her stance as a Christian and some of the things she does or won't do that are supposed Christian ideals.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 3, 2020 9:58:05 GMT -5
Yep, saw an attorney years ago to understand my situation and I'm basically screwed financially if it comes to a divorce. I already knew that however. I am in the financial services and consulting field, so I had a pretty good idea already of the impact it was going to have. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. Had a good conversation with my wife this morning and we are still fighting to stay together and fix things.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 2, 2020 18:32:28 GMT -5
Long story short - we've been together 25 years but grown apart over the past several years with career, kids, homeschooling, etc. I had a very brief affair 15 years ago with an ex-girlfriend when our marriage was very rocky. I deeply regret it and it's the only time I've every been unfaithful. I had one foot out the door and neither one of us was really present or communicating in our marriage. Since then we've had two more kids and I really thought things were back on track, but the sexual intimacy gradually decreased from once every few weeks to almost nothing and then absolutely nothing. At this point, it's been over three years with no hint of any sexual intimacy. In the meantime I started a business and have been very successful which has taken time away from my marriage. My wife came to me three years ago and asked us to go to counseling. I wasn't really invested in the counseling for the first year, but now I feel like I am the one who is more invested than she is. We were attending sporadically over the past two years, but within the past few weeks I've told her need to start having a session once a week or at least with more frequency and come up with an actual game plan to either fix things or move on with our lives. For about the last year to two years we haven't been sleeping in the same bed. She goes to bed at 10PM every night. I tend to stay up a bit later. In the past few years, she's also gotten significantly more involved in our church including becoming a youth group leader, which I also feel is pulling her in a direction and pushing our marriage further down on the list of things to work on. Ironically I think she fancies herself as quite the Christian while going against some of the things the Bible preaches in terms of husbands and wives and intimacy. We don't fight and get along well, but we are friends without benefits at this point as we don't make love either.
Frankly, I still love my wife. If she came to me tomorrow and wanted sexually intimacy, I'm there. When I'm doing my own thing to "relieve stress", many times I am thinking of sexual experiences from our past. At one point in time we had a pretty good sex life. I won't say it was everything I wanted it to be, but it was serviceable and had some good variety and that's at a point where we weren't as emotionally connected as we could have been. I stay because I still think there is some hope to get back there. She knows I want sexual intimacy (among other things) and says she still wants it in our marriage also. She claims that so much damage has been done from a lack of emotional intimacy over the past 20 years that it is taking her time to process it. Our counselor understands she is being avoidant and has called her on it. He understands that I have a timeline and won't tolerate this indefinitely as frankly I feel it is very emotionally abusive on her part and would like to move ahead with my life, either with or without her. Until we resolve this, it feels like living in limbo which, as our counselor stated most eloquently, is excruciating. However, the big red warning flag for me continues to be the thought running through my head that if she really loved me like she claims she does, she'd make some sort of effort at sexual intimacy of some kind as she knows how much the lack thereof in our marriage bothers me. I have to balance that thought with the fact that it would be very expensive to get out of this marriage and I really don't fancy moving out at this point. My biggest concern is our three kids who all still live at home. I don't think they have any clue that things are the way they are between my wife and I know it would crush them if we decide to split. So I stay as long as I feel like we are making some sort of positive forward progress. If that stops and if we decide it isn't going to get any better, I guess we'll cross that bridge if we need to.
|
|
|
Post by flyingsolo on Jun 2, 2020 15:24:54 GMT -5
Hey Lonely. I am not a counselor or therapist, so take this with that mind. My advice to you being with my spouse for 25 years (and in a sexless marriage for at least 10 of those) is not to ignore this issue and let it fester into a much bigger issue which takes way more time to unwind the more time that passes before you recognize and address it. Your needs are just as important as his. Obviously something is going on that needs to be addressed between the two of you. If your sex life was good for both of you before getting married and then after marriage it isn't, something's up. If it was never good, it is possible you have vastly different libidos and could be in for a rough road ahead. Communication is important and it has to go both ways. However, it's also important not to bring it up in accusatory manner to make him feel defensive in which case he may shut down further. I'd start it by telling him literally the first sentence you used in your post above - "You are wonderful and I love you dearly.". Do not say "but" after that sentence. My wife has a theory that the word "but" negates everything you just said before it, which I tend to agree with when you are discussing sensitive subjects.
Do it lovingly and tell him you would like to have an open and honest conversation about intimacy in your marriage as you've noticed it has declined which makes you sad or concerned (don't use angry) and you want to try to figure out what is going on and that you are interested in working together with him to make things better. Ask what you can do for him to help bring it back and what you feel he can do on his end. When you start having a two way dialogue without it turning into an argument, you are far more likely to resolve the issue together. If you make it accusatory "You never want to make love", "We need to have sex more", etc., you are going to set yourself up for some push-back and he is going to become defensive and possibly withdraw further. If necessary, don't be afraid to seek professional help of a marriage counselor to help you determine whether this is a minor or major issue. It's perfectly fine if you go see one alone just to get some help in how to address the issue. (He make take offense to you suggesting that so shortly into your marriage you feel you both need to go see one which is why I am suggesting you maybe go alone at first to determine whether you just need a few quick tweaks or whether you need deeper help). There's no shame in getting help to make things better if you both love each other. It is far less expensive to get help now then have to pay for an attorney and a divorce down the road, especially when kids may be involved.
You mentioned above that you keep getting into arguments when trying to discuss it and he stated "We can't keep arguing about the same problem". It sounds like you are in a spiral, fighting about the same thing, but never resolving it. If he used the word "problem", you may ask him what he sees as the problem. He may define the "problem" differently from you or disclose something you weren't even aware of as the real issue of what is causing his refusal. You may see the problem as never having sex. He may see the problem as you "Constantly asking to have sex". In which case, you aren't even working on solving the same problem together. Make sure you define the problem together. When he defines his version of the problem, you should ask him "then what can we do together to fix it?". That takes the conversation out of the spiral and into trying to solve the problem together. Again, you have to steer it out of the spiral and into problem solving or you will keep going round and round without resolving anything. If left unchecked, this can become a death spiral for your marriage. Frustration leads to anger. Anger leads to pulling back emotionally, which leads to you disconnecting from each other and prioritizing away from your marriage. Before you know it you'll look at your spouse and only see a roommate and perhaps one you don't even like anymore. The goal is to fix it well before it gets that bad. The key is communicating honestly and openly without being accusatory.
You can also do a little reading on your own to be prepared to discuss sensitive topics like this. I highly recommend "Hold Me Tight" by Dr. Sue Johnson. It talks about the very issue I mention above in getting stuck in spirals without being able to resolve anything, which keeps your relationship stuck in this unhappy (or at least uncomfortable) place.
One last thing. Does your husband look at porn? Another thought is that he may have replaced his sex life with you with porn and is basically just jerking off instead of having sex with you. It could possibly explain his inability to finish. Another possibility to consider is that maybe he just doesn't enjoy or like sex. Unfortunately, if the later is the case, you have a tough decision to make, but at least you'll be making an informed and educated one. Keep us posted.
|
|