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Post by tirefire on May 19, 2018 17:53:31 GMT -5
Debatable whether the sexual incompatibility is the cause or effect of other major issues for many marriages. Probably different for everyone. It's the whole chicken-or-egg question. After over a year of thinking about this (I'm a bit slow sometimes), I'm certain that sex is part of a virtuous circle in a relationship. Everything goes better if you are having sex and you'll have more sex if everything is going well. So if you want to break the marriage, just break that circle by letting the sex get kicked to the curb. There is no substitute for the bonding that occurs during and after sex. You can't talk that bonding into existence. You can't hold hands until it happens. Those are both great things with different rewards and I wouldn't want to do without them either but still no substitute for the sex. And then you'll want to hold hands because of the connection and you'll be talking because you can't imagine not being with that person. Ok, maybe I am just describing good/great sex. That's the idea, anyway. I wish that for everyone that reaches this forum. TF
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Post by ted on May 20, 2018 0:23:41 GMT -5
"I love you" doesn't mean much. It's so overloaded with different meanings that it's really the context where all the meaning is to be found. The word "love" is kind of like a positive swear word (bear with me). You can sprinkle it around in your language, but it just adds color to whatever else your saying, or perhaps doing; it doesn't mean much on its own.
I've been trying to avoid the word for a while, at least without further articulation of what I really mean. For example, I said "I love you" to my daughter last night when tucking her into bed, but I said "I love you; I really like having you here with me." Often my emotions swell and I say "I love you" before I'm conscious of the reason for the emotion, but I recognize this as the words come out, and it triggers me to analyze why I'm saying it, and I usually verbalize the why too.
My mom told me "but, I love you so much" several times today in our disastrous joint therapy session, in which she was showing no regard for my feelings, independence, family boundaries, etc.—Umm, no Mom, you don't. Not in any way that I recognize.
"If she 'loves' me, wouldn't she have sex with me?" Substituting the context back into the "love," might that actually mean something like: "If she has emotional bond with me that beautifully overflows into sexual expression, wouldn't she have sex with me?" Well, it's tautological at that point. Yes, yes she would. So no, no she doesn't. When our spouses say they still love us, they have a different context in mind.
(I'm really not trying to be down on love, or more accurately, all the different things we mean when we use word "love." I'm still a hopeless romantic. I'm just not finding the word "love" terribly useful these days.)
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Post by choosinghappy on May 20, 2018 5:45:27 GMT -5
greatcoastal , I really hope that video isn’t the kind of stuff you watch and then extrapolate to believe that “women manipulate men” generally. Sure, some women do and some men do too but those people have issues. (And in this case, the woman in the video is clearly a psychopath). Maybe it’s just the extremely general title that’s throwing me off: “Exposing How Women Manipulate Men”... Much more accurate would be “How Dahlia Whatever Manipulated Her Husband”.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 20, 2018 6:34:25 GMT -5
greatcoastal , I really hope that video isn’t the kind of stuff you watch and then extrapolate to believe that “women manipulate men” generally. Sure, some women do and some men do too but those people have issues. (And in this case, the woman in the video is clearly a psychopath). Maybe it’s just the extremely general title that’s throwing me off: “Exposing How Women Manipulate Men”... Much more accurate would be “How Dahlia Whatever Manipulated Her Husband”. I greatly appreciate your concern for me, it's worth a lot. it would be worth much more if I knew you in person. ( or any woman whom I know in person) I say that because right now the only other people I see in person who are concerned like that for me are a few other men. (and my teenage daughter-that's a load I try not to place on her) Sadly I do believe in how powerful these manipulative techniques are, due to the fact that I was suckered into them for 20 plus years. I found that I could relate to this video far to much. I am finally approaching my ex like the police detective did and not like the husband. If I had videos they would be similar and titled " How GreatCoastal's ex Manipulated her Husband and Her Family" our psychologist would be there to break down her logic and methods. That's why I passed this video along. I found it quite true and memorable. (I've never been arrested or served time for anything, I have been falsely accused before) Just my divorce story alone, my ex's charges against her, contempt of court, fraud, going through 5 attorneys, etc... It's out there. And it's the type of cases that bring people to a site like this. I am damaged goods. I am speaking with woman less and less, and want an environment (my future employment) with men. (no i am not becoming gay) I posted it for people like us who do have to deal with people who have issues. You will notice it is also full of advise on how the victim should/could have handled it but was continually lured into having to rescue her and take the blame for it. There is a lot of DARVO in it and it's a great example of it. You can learn from watching it, how to not be taken in when someone DARVO's you. Yes ,I think the tittle throws you off. maybe their are videos out there of a man who does similar manipulation to his wife, yet uses his male influence and male controlling, dominance and avoidance , gas lighting, projection, tactics on his spouse. It's all about control. I will not be controlled like that again, even if it means remaining single until death, so be it.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 3:29:02 GMT -5
I am apparently in the minority here. My wife would not say she loves me, nor can I say I love her, although we care about each other and and friendly with each other.
In fact, back in the days I still cared about being touched by her and I would appeal to her obligations in our relationship, her go-to argument was 'we don't have a relationship." That way she could avoid sex.
In retrospect, one of my problems historically has been that since I know that she is needy behind her very aggressive exterior, I would always reassure her that I am not going anywhere, the she can count on me to be there for her no matter what. That gave her the confidence she needed in other areas of her life, which have always been anything but stable. I've been the one thing she knows will be the same, and I've felt (and still feel to an extent) an obligation to remain the safe harbor in the constant storm and drama that surrounds the rest of her life - both self-inflicted and real.
I'm worried about whether she can survive without me, and on the flip side I'm worried about whether I can survive the wrath that she is capable of when she really turns against me. As a naturally passive person, this is all a very frightening dynamic for me to mess with, even though I am suffering in a loveless, sexless sham of a marriage that nevertheless provides me also with a degree of stability and comfort.
I know how this sounds as I write it, believe me. I'm breaking out of this mindset. Therapy, along with ILIASM and good friends online, are helping me see things more clearly, and acting on my values in my life will help me as well. I'm more convinced that it is no longer a question of if but when. But the thought of sacrificing my entire life and any chance for long term happiness to avoid the hopefully short term war is still surprisingly strong.
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Post by baza on May 23, 2018 3:55:53 GMT -5
@shynjdude . An anecdote from my past. I eyeballed my missus one night, over another issue she had brought on herself. Ever the considerate caring bloke, I said - "I know you are struggling, but I'm here for you until you sort your shit out at which time we will evaluate whether we go forward together or apart". This was all very noble on my part - I thought. My counsellor - when I told her of this exchange - pointed out my tactical error. You see if I was going to "be there until she got her shit together" then she may see it as in her best longer term best interests NOT to attempt to get her shit together. And that was pretty much how it played out. And boy, was it difficult retracting that committment I'd made.
Now in the fullness of time, I got out. And in that solo environment she found herself in, she DID get a lot of her shit sorted out, over time.
I recount this anecdote for you Brother @shynjdude as it seems to have some relevance to your post above.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 4:00:13 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on May 23, 2018 7:36:59 GMT -5
Just because you love someone doesn't mean you agree with their lifestyle.
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Post by shamwow on May 23, 2018 13:58:47 GMT -5
When going through the divorce I noted to my STBX that I didn't love her anymore and she didn't love me.
She got angry at that and exclaimed "you can't tell me if I love you or not!"
Fair enough. But she never actually did say she loved me. At that point it had been 13 years since she had said it to me unprompted. I didn't have another 13 years to wait.
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Post by elkclan2 on May 24, 2018 4:59:07 GMT -5
greatcoastal - once again you are sharing things from the Mens Rights Movement - which is basically just a bit of shabby gloss over misogyny. If you keep watching these videos, you'll end up MGTOW and that is not a happy place to be- bitter, twisted, hateful. This red pill bullshit is gonna fuck your head. Didn't your sister just invite you up to spend time with her? Anyway, this blanket "women are all psychopaths who seek to manipulate men" and the title of the video series "Feminism LOL" is actually super offensive. Basically, I love men, I live with all males (other than my cat!) But I am a feminist and a woman and you sharing this stuff is just as offensive as if I shared a bunch of stuff like "Why Christianity ruins your relationship." or "The Bible is the ruin of Western Society" - now I don't happen to believe those things, I'm just saying it for perspective. I believe you probably mean well, but this stuff is just NOT ok and I don't think this is the place to share these things. There are certainly plenty of forums where you can share all the links you like about how women are basically manipulative psychopaths, this really ought not to be one of them. Maybe your ex was a manipulative psychopath but I can assure you #notallwomen and frankly your ex hasn't even deliberately tried to kill you, right - you're still here, so #notevenher
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Post by elkclan2 on May 24, 2018 5:16:47 GMT -5
Back to the topic at hand. There came a point in my marriage that I didn't FEEL loved. That I realised that words and actions didn't match. My ex's definition of love certainly doesn't match mine. Funny thing is, I still do love him, he is the father of my child. And I would act on that love. If he were in hospital, etc, I would do a lot help him out. I try to treat him with kindness and consideration (though no longer at my own expense, but I would in extremis like the hospital example). But I don't think he'd do the same. Heck, he didn't even when we were married. I was taken to emergency room with chest pains and he basically texted 'ok'.
But when we split he still said he loved me and he wanted his 'wife' back. Not me. His wife. He loved the idea of being married and what it had come to mean to him (basically someone to rant at and cook and do childcare) but he didn't love me as me.
Where the sexlessness mattered was that by not having sex with me, he didn't refill my 'love bank' (ewww that's a bit more suggestive than I meant it to be) but basically I needed the physical connection because I was being treated so badly that the emotional connection was just falling away. I like sex a lot anyway and will engage in sexual activity without love, but in a romantic relationship sex is just such a positive blessing - the sex is way better and it smooths over all the little annoying things that come with living with another person, although my partner is a pretty kickass domestic partner, too. It recharges our emotional connection (well it does for me and my partner - obviously didn't have that affect with my ex).
Obviously it's entirely possible to love without sex. But for most humans, it's not possible to love romantically without some satisfaction of their physical need for affection.
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Post by choosinghappy on May 24, 2018 5:47:32 GMT -5
greatcoastal - once again you are sharing things from the Mens Rights Movement - which is basically just a bit of shabby gloss over misogyny. If you keep watching these videos, you'll end up MGTOW and that is not a happy place to be- bitter, twisted, hateful. This red pill bullshit is gonna fuck your head. Didn't your sister just invite you up to spend time with her? Anyway, this blanket "women are all psychopaths who seek to manipulate men" and the title of the video series "Feminism LOL" is actually super offensive. Basically, I love men, I live with all males (other than my cat!) But I am a feminist and a woman and you sharing this stuff is just as offensive as if I shared a bunch of stuff like "Why Christianity ruins your relationship." or "The Bible is the ruin of Western Society" - now I don't happen to believe those things, I'm just saying it for perspective. I believe you probably mean well, but this stuff is just NOT ok and I don't think this is the place to share these things. There are certainly plenty of forums where you can share all the links you like about how women are basically manipulative psychopaths, this really ought not to be one of them. Maybe your ex was a manipulative psychopath but I can assure you #notallwomen and frankly your ex hasn't even deliberately tried to kill you, right - you're still here, so #notevenher In regards to this topic about the video and misogyny: I completely agree about these things fucking with your head greatcoastal. This is not healthy thinking. I know you had a horrible experience with your wife but to just write off all women, avoid them, and state that you are “damaged goods” is not going to do you any favors. I would hope that interacting with many of the intelligent and caring women on this forum (who are going through similar struggles that you are) might prove to you that all women are not manipulative psychopaths. Your views are certainly worth challenging, especially since you have 6 children who are learning from you and affected by how you see the world. The boys may take on these same damaging views and the girls may feel lesser-than. Something to think about.
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Post by WindSister on May 24, 2018 7:25:48 GMT -5
This is not healthy thinking. I know you had a horrible experience with your wife but to just write off all women, avoid them, and state that you are “damaged goods” is not going to do you any favors. I'm not a fan of that video, either, but I will stick to this point because I think it's really important. How we define ourselves defines our reality. Therefore, I think it's more important to spend more time and effort on one's self instead of looking at "the other." If you define yourself a victim, you will continually BE a victim. Life will give you what you want, what you believe. Why not empower yourself and find better definitions? I'm healing. I'm worthy of a healthy relationship. Worrying about what "they" might do is not empowering. Know thyself. My ex played video games 24/7. The first thing he did when he got home was put his comfy shorts on and plop on the couch. He didn't care about our house, the yard, vacations, etc. He was indifferent to me and most of life. I didn't think all men were like that, though, and I didn't study how or why he was like that. I just defined myself and started living my way to my dream life. I had to BE the kind of woman who lived the life she dreamed of. I had to become her. It has had nothing to do with him. Soon, I attracted my mate who is also living the kind of life I want. Now we live it together. The effort I spent on studying other's behaviors to get here, though, is close to nil.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 24, 2018 17:07:46 GMT -5
greatcoastal - once again you are sharing things from the Mens Rights Movement - which is basically just a bit of shabby gloss over misogyny. If you keep watching these videos, you'll end up MGTOW and that is not a happy place to be- bitter, twisted, hateful. This red pill bullshit is gonna fuck your head. Didn't your sister just invite you up to spend time with her? Anyway, this blanket "women are all psychopaths who seek to manipulate men" and the title of the video series "Feminism LOL" is actually super offensive. Basically, I love men, I live with all males (other than my cat!) But I am a feminist and a woman and you sharing this stuff is just as offensive as if I shared a bunch of stuff like "Why Christianity ruins your relationship." or "The Bible is the ruin of Western Society" - now I don't happen to believe those things, I'm just saying it for perspective. I believe you probably mean well, but this stuff is just NOT ok and I don't think this is the place to share these things. There are certainly plenty of forums where you can share all the links you like about how women are basically manipulative psychopaths, this really ought not to be one of them. Maybe your ex was a manipulative psychopath but I can assure you #notallwomen and frankly your ex hasn't even deliberately tried to kill you, right - you're still here, so #notevenher In regards to this topic about the video and misogyny: I completely agree about these things fucking with your head greatcoastal . This is not healthy thinking. I know you had a horrible experience with your wife but to just write off all women, avoid them, and state that you are “damaged goods” is not going to do you any favors. I would hope that interacting with many of the intelligent and caring women on this forum (who are going through similar struggles that you are) might prove to you that all women are not manipulative psychopaths. Your views are certainly worth challenging, especially since you have 6 children who are learning from you and affected by how you see the world. The boys may take on these same damaging views and the girls may feel lesser-than. Something to think about. you are getting too far off on labeling and ignoring facts. I thought that video was a perfect example for this thread " would your spouse say they still love you?" A good example of how a spouse -male or female- will pull DARVO on you (lie to you) when confronted with truth and facts. That's what this video is, truth and facts. Not opinions, you get to listen to it for yourself and hopefully say " Thank God I don't treat others that way" and " He's being suckered again, he needs to stand up for himself" it's really that simple. The video is about How a controller will continue to tell you whatever is necessary to manipulate you and get their way. You are experiencing some of those same things. I've read every post you have ever put on here, I'm sorry for what you have been going through. There is much to learn in reading and observing. how woman handle and go through similar struggles like I am and did. One of those was my experience in going to Divorce Recovery classes (several different classes at different times) I would find myself outnumbered 10 to 1 and surrounded by very narrow ,one sided opinions that "I don't E V E R want a man, I don't need a man, men are just wrong!" Not what is taught in these classes that are meant for men and woman, but certainly voiced by the woman who are there . I am also a firm believer that men and woman are different. If you want to challenge my views, please do so. Hopefully it will contain an open dialogue, experiences, quotes, examples, stories, testimonies, articles, statistics, Bible verses, science, psychology studies, etc.... You know, things people use to help back their opinions. Why you came to such a conclusion?, attempt to teach me and be willing to learn at the same time. But don't get your panties in a knot just because you think I follow a label 100% and you have cherry picked that label for the 2 or 3% that you don't like (or do like). "I've had enough of that from my ex". There is also my 4500 posts on here. Too much for anyone to remember or go through, but some things are recent and I 'm not going to dredge them up over and over again. I have stated before, my decades of interacting with hundreds of woman in my 20 yrs of raising my 6 children. Compared to my lack of being around men. I want to take more risks. One of those will be being with men more. It's part of my new beginning. Part of rediscovering my man hood that feels stripped away from me being Mr. Stay at home dad for 20 yrs under the thumb of a manipulative controller. That does not mean that there is no place for having a woman be a part of my life as I go into my new journey. Their is much to say about how my very passive, co- dependent, attitude in this marriage, will ,and has, affected my 6 children, and how my ex's manipulative controlling attitude continues to affect them. Sadly I see both traits in different children. The divorce is no where near over . Already I am back to having to call my attorney to do battle against my ex's manipulative control. Her attorney is right by her side, with the lies. They throw it against the wall and see what sticks, weather it's true or not is irrelevant. When it's proven that it's nothing more than more manipulative lies, it just gets dropped with zero consequences, (not so true when it comes to what happens to my children when they are with their mother at her house , and I now get to deal with counselling them when they feel safer with me . And then their are my older boys who have been manipulated that dad is evil and mom is the only alternative). I' continue to post it under "money, money, money.... MONEY"
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Post by greatcoastal on May 24, 2018 19:01:20 GMT -5
greatcoastal - once again you are sharing things from the Mens Rights Movement - which is basically just a bit of shabby gloss over misogyny. If you keep watching these videos, you'll end up MGTOW and that is not a happy place to be- bitter, twisted, hateful. This red pill bullshit is gonna fuck your head. Didn't your sister just invite you up to spend time with her? Anyway, this blanket "women are all psychopaths who seek to manipulate men" and the title of the video series "Feminism LOL" is actually super offensive. Basically, I love men, I live with all males (other than my cat!) But I am a feminist and a woman and you sharing this stuff is just as offensive as if I shared a bunch of stuff like "Why Christianity ruins your relationship." or "The Bible is the ruin of Western Society" - now I don't happen to believe those things, I'm just saying it for perspective. I believe you probably mean well, but this stuff is just NOT ok and I don't think this is the place to share these things. There are certainly plenty of forums where you can share all the links you like about how women are basically manipulative psychopaths, this really ought not to be one of them. Maybe your ex was a manipulative psychopath but I can assure you #notallwomen and frankly your ex hasn't even deliberately tried to kill you, right - you're still here, so #notevenher I'm glad you're offended. I will now quote your own words and take your logic, approach and advice and use it back towards you- ( these where never my thoughts, they are yours) "When things you say are offensive you are not immune to criticism. I'm sure you do know plenty of men but bottom line you aren't one. And frankly all the affairs during your SM, and being engaged before even divorcing while still raising a child, wtf? Does that give you insight into a man's mind? That's not my life." More of your quotes and logic- "Do not come on here stating any opinions that can pertain to a man, or anything in the least bit that pertains to a man in a marriage, because your aren't one. Do not come on here stating anything that pertains to a man and a woman because, " you are only a woman and not a man" Feb 07 2018 7:03 am. I also find it offensive that you want me to "ignore you from now on. I have no desire to engage with you further", and yet here you are, addressing me and speaking to me. I also find it offensive that you wish to come on here proclaiming that you are a feminist. Then again instead of being offended I will ask you to state facts and or I will steer clear of any more of your profanities. I find your profane language to be arrogant, rude, and childish and I don't think this is the place to spew those things. Quite frankly it belittles your credibility as an adult. As far as I know my ex has not tried to deliberately kill me,,,,yet. However she tried to have me arrested and physically assaulted me, she broke the law against me, Freud and contempt of court. My divorce -and my seclusion-in being a stay at home ,dad has already placed me on a path of being a man who is going his own way. I'm more free from my controller. That does not automatically connect me 100% with any negatives that people derive from a movement. The same can be said for the good that came from feminism. It's interesting you mentioned my sister .I think what I am about to say fits in with this topic. My sister was given an "open door" invitation to travel the 700 miles and visit me and my family over the last 15 yrs. Most of my children have never met her, those that did don't remember her. After begging, holiday, after holiday, season after season, year after year, the rejection set in. Especially when my sister works for an airline and would fly quite regularly 700 miles in the opposite direction to see her boyfriends family. My sister has no children. It would always be easier for her to visit us instead of the other way around. We had the room for a guest or two, she did not. We live blocks from the ocean. Now that my Wife is out of the picture my sister seems suddenly comfortable with the idea. That still doesn't mean it will ever happen. For whatever reason the only way it will happen is me packing up everyone and making the trip. I already began the invitations with " I'll have the house to myself every other week. Turtle nesting season peak is in June and July come and stay a while, it's a 5 minute walk to the ocean". Me constantly begging again, me feeling like I had to force the whole thing, and then her saying "that was great". My sister seems like another woman in my life who has control, another uneven playing field. Do I still say "all woman are like that" No, because I will be meeting new people and not just caving to their demands. I might even offend them.
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