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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 14:36:21 GMT -5
elynne If you want to gaze into the crystal ball...... Your husband is not stupid and will start scrambling when he sees you’re serious. I had the above talk, too, and he didn’t even flinch when I threw down divorce papers. We are married to the same guy. When I moved forward with the financial settlement, stuff started getting real for him. You need to BRACE YOURSELF for The Reset. You will be reset. I’ve seen your picture and read your posts. He won’t let that go without a fight. You will need to up the ante, though. These avoidants don’t react until a piano crashes on their heads. Decide now if you’re willing to be reset..... the past year and a half of therapy, promises, arguing “I can’t be perfect” (as if I ever asked that), gaslighting has been horrible on my mental health. You have the opportunity to control yourself and your decisions. I made the huge mistake of hoping, bargaining, waiting.... My therapist wisely pointed out: after 21 years, you’ve paid your dues. If he wants to change, he can REMARRY you. Your therapist is a gem! What a brilliant reply! I don’t know if h is capable of performing a reset. We’ve only ever really done a downhill slide. His attempts at intimacy are making my coffee in the morning and pointing out if it smells like spring or an unusual bird. I appreciate those little things but it’s not enough. I don’t know if he’s capable of more. Me trying to get a kiss from him would be funny if it weren’t actually true. H: <beaklike peck on my cheek> Me: Kiss me again. H: You’ve already had a kiss today. Me: Kiss me again. <shy smile> Softer. Slowly. H: <beaklike peck on the cheek> leaves the house. I don’t ask anymore. I got tired of hitting my one peck a day limit. But if he could actually do a real reset, I think I’d fall hook, line and sinker. I’m so starved for his love and affection that I’d be pretty easy to manipulate. Allow me to give you a little analogy, only because I, went through it myself. You are thirsting in the dessert. Your spouse finally hands you a tiny cup of water from a cold gallon jug. You take it, and are elated with hope and joy. You begin to open up again, and want so badly to be your true self. The next day you ask for the same tiny cup. Your spouse pours the entire gallonl onto the sand. He would rather be thirsty himself than share with you. Right back to the control and the fear issue. Honestly... I wish I did not have to say this to you.....You likely will let that happen. Hopefully that will be your final tipping point. You can then begin to detach, heal, and restore yourself, with help from others. (voice of experience)
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 15, 2018 21:49:30 GMT -5
^^^ That. 😢
We don’t even LIVE together, let alone kiss, but my husband pulled out a reset. Think of it: he wooed you. We both fell for it. He even makes coffee for me on the mornings he bumps into me. (We have a 6,000 sf house. It’s easy to stay in separate quarters.)
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 16, 2018 8:48:35 GMT -5
elynneHe'd be CRAZY not to reset you. You are beautiful. And from what you describe of him, he is very smart and successful and a good dad. NOT crazy and stupid. I'm not a fortune teller, but trust me, he will pull out SOMETHING once he realizes you are serious. When I threw down the divorce papers, my husband didn't flinch. He had the deer-in-the-headlights look. It took him MONTHS to process what was happening. And when we started talking money and custody, that's when he woke up. I suspect you are still a long ways from The Reset. This conversation you had was the snowflake of the avalanche you may or may not choose to unleash on him.
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Post by elynne on Mar 19, 2018 6:30:17 GMT -5
So - h got back from his week away. I decided to give him a day or two to settle in before asking him his take on the article about Intimacy Anorexia.
I’ve decided I’m no longer going to be complacent. I’m going to keep bringing it up until it either gets better or we part ways.
So brought it up this morning. He had a bit of a strange reply. I need help trying to decode or understand what is going on.
Me: Did you have a chance to read and think about the article. H: Yes. But I don’t think I use it as a tool. Me: So you recognize things in the article? H: Yes. But I don’t think I use it as a tool. Me: You may not use the behaviors as a tool, but as strategies to create enough distance to feel safe. I know this may sound like circular logic, but often it’s hard to see our own defenses.
H: But I don’t use it as a tool. Maybe I’m just reacting, like when you bit my head off yesterday. Me: Yeah. I’m sorry I reacted that way. I don’t know why I reacted so strongly. I don’t understand it, but I felt attacked and like I needed to defend myself. H: Yeah. You were really nasty. And then I felt myself distancing and I tried to stop it. Like when I touched you yesterday. Me: I can see that. But you were questioning my veracity. Did you really think that I put a tracker on the dog? H: <in a haughty tone> No. Of course not.
(Thinking to myself - so my short-tempered reaction that he’s milking for all it’s worth - wasn’t so completely out of the blue. It was in response to him being sarcastic and condescending to me. And my snapping at him by saying “I don’t know!” impatiently wasn’t unprovoked.”).
So... I say Me: I’ve noticed you making more of an effort to touch me. I appreciate that.
You know that after that incident on our ski vacation (he said it felt like I was raping him) I’m not going to voluntarily touch you.
H: But this should be two sided. Both of us have to make an effort.
Me: Your reaction was so strong and so rejecting that I don’t feel safe approaching you. I think that may lie at the bottom of our problems. There isn’t a mutual sense of safety and security in our relationship. H: Yes. I agree. Me: So what are we going to do about it? H: I don’t know. <pause> Talk to our therapist? Me: Maybe you should bring it up in your individual therapy and I’ll bring it up in mine.
I don’t know if our couples therapist has the skills to help us deal with this.
H: I don’t think she does either.
And then he makes a to do about acting late and busy and rushing out of the room.
I’m at a loss. Talking seems to be such a struggle. Like he’d rather blame and sidetrack and stick a band-aid somewhere and not actually solve anything.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 19, 2018 6:43:59 GMT -5
“Thinking to myself - so my short-tempered reaction that he’s milking for all it’s worth - wasn’t so completely out of the blue. It was in response to him being sarcastic and condescending to me. And my snapping at him by saying “I don’t know!” impatiently wasn’t unprovoked.”).”
Why didn’t you say that?
Google, “Gottman” and “Four Horseman” and “divorce.” You will see that the criticism and contempt you are hurling at each other indicate your marriage is likely to end within 5 years.
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Post by elynne on Mar 19, 2018 8:32:56 GMT -5
“Thinking to myself - so my short-tempered reaction that he’s milking for all it’s worth - wasn’t so completely out of the blue. It was in response to him being sarcastic and condescending to me. And my snapping at him by saying “I don’t know!” impatiently wasn’t unprovoked.”).” Why didn’t you say that? Google, “Gottman” and “Four Horseman” and “divorce.” You will see that the criticism and contempt you are hurling at each other indicate your marriage is likely to end within 5 years. I don’t say it because it doesn’t occur to me until a day later. I know in the moment I feel guilty, panicked. What did I do wrong? No matter what it is and how responsible I am for the problem my first reaction is “Fuck! What did I mess up now?!” The stupid argument was about the dog. I got a message on my watch “Your dog is loose outside.” Still laying in bed I think, “Oh fuck! Did I leave her outside all night?!” I say to H (still laying in bed beside me) The dog is outside! H: How do you know? Me: I got a message on my watch. (Fumbling for my phone to figure out who sent me the app) H: <sarcastically> Do you have a tracker on the dog? Me: No. H: <with impatience> How do you know?! Me: <snapping at him> I DON’T know! (as I’m trying to figure out who sent the app, how the dog got outside while we were both in bed and what I could have done wrong). H: You don’t have to bite my head off. Me: The kids must have let the dog out. And the gate must be open. (I get up and dressed quickly to go get the dog). Sorry for so much detail. I just really struggle to see what’s going on. I feel like I’m always blamed for everything that goes wrong, whether it’s my fault or not. Now that I’ve decided I’m not putting up with it anymore, I’m discovering I react to stand up for myself, but in the moment I still can’t see it clearly and put into words what was wrong. I just know I feel defensive. I’m frustrated with how difficult it is to talk to H and with myself for not being able to figure out the problem and put it into words in the moment. It takes me so long to process!
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 19, 2018 9:09:22 GMT -5
“I don’t say it because it doesn’t occur to me until a day later. I know in the moment I feel guilty, panicked. What did I do wrong? No matter what it is and how responsible I am for the problem my first reaction is “Fuck! What did I mess up now?!”’
I get it. I grew up in a family in which my father was verbally abusive. For most of my life I have tended to freeze and blame myself in situations like what you experienced. Finally in my 60s I have learned to speak up. Individual therapy helped a lot with this.
Maybe it would help you to realize that once you think of what to say, it’s ok to bring it up with your spouse. When he undoubtedly says yy are bringing up the past, it is ok to say you are bringing it up because it hasn’t been resolved and you are still bothered by it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 19, 2018 11:32:17 GMT -5
We’ll see how we responds when he returns from the trip. I’m not expecting much, but for myself I need to take these steps to ensure I’ve done everything I can - that way if I do call it quits I can do it with a clean conscience. It’s also really healthy for me to work on bringing up my fears, starting difficult conversations, facing problems head on. These aren’t my strong points, and this is a good opportunity to learn and grow as a person. The link that I sent him: drjanicecaudill.com/blog/is-intimacy-anorexia-the-hidden-sniper-in-your-marriage.htmlThis sounds similar to my approach and to my ex-wife's response, within our marriage. For me, while I posed it initially as taking a logical approach to problem solving and took a tiny amount of pride in how open I was to her solving her obvious problem with intimacy, the more useful portion of that process in hindsight was most of what you've focused on aside from the article. Specifically - you are taking yourself through the decoupling process, staring at uncomfortable truths and satisfying your pre-flight checklist that you have taken reasonable steps to inform him and enable his agency in whatever happens next. This is for you; not him. You have an intuitive grasp that you are well beyond any buoy at this point that will bring you back to a romantically intimate marriage that is devoid of intolerable tension. As far as the theorizing goes, you seem to be leaving a door open to the same hypothesis I did at the time - namely - to the kinder story that the drought in your marriage is due to a generalized problem with intimacy, rather than due to a specific, severe, and deeply ingrained disconnection from you in the context of the marriage. Consider the likelihood of him resuming romantic intimate relations with someone else in a post-separation scenario, similar to what it was near the beginning of your relationship. The most reasonable and likely explanation is the most hurtful of all - which is why almost everyone (including me) reflexively avoids it, almost every time. Intuitively, you know it to be true - that's why it hurts so much. It makes you feel as though he doesn't desire you as a married partner. That's because he doesn't. He can love you. He can find you to be objectively an attractive person. He can be your friend. But on some level, somewhere along the way, or maybe from the get go, maybe he never wanted to be married to you and the marriage itself feels like a spring trap. As far as I can tell, there's no evidence that he is devoid of intimacy altogether in all situations with all people. You've only got one example - and even with that - you had intimacy at one point. While this is no doubt, the harshest toke - I find that I wish I had arrived at that conclusion earlier rather than working my way through a flowchart of alternative solutions to my marital problem, trying to help my wife filibuster/troubleshoot her way through "discovering her erotic centre" again, so she could share it with me (her words). Because, if one is motivated strongly enough, one can find enough alternative solutions to try out that don't solve the common denominator - which is the repulsion or disgust to either me/you, or to the marital circumstance of our association. If it's either one of those two things - and it almost certainly is (unless our spouses are planning a post-marriage life of celibacy, and how likely is that? - ask your divorced friends who date other divorcees) - then whatever alternative solution you find together will certainly be bent on a trajectory to create an association that is incompatible with marriage, because escape from that marriage is what he's trying to engineer.
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Post by Dan on Mar 19, 2018 19:47:03 GMT -5
Given this: But if he could actually do a real reset, I think I’d fall hook, line and sinker. I’m so starved for his love and affection that I’d be pretty easy to manipulate. ... I strongly suggest you DO NOT dabble in outsourcing. If you happen to find an emotionally and intellectually compatible gentleman who gives you the soothing touch you crave, you will fall for him crazy hard. And if this happens, it will not be due to his manipulation... it will be due to something far more intoxicating: his honesty.
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Post by elynne on Mar 20, 2018 5:45:15 GMT -5
“I don’t say it because it doesn’t occur to me until a day later. I know in the moment I feel guilty, panicked. What did I do wrong? No matter what it is and how responsible I am for the problem my first reaction is “Fuck! What did I mess up now?!”’ I get it. I grew up in a family in which my father was verbally abusive. For most of my life I have tended to freeze and blame myself in situations like what you experienced. Finally in my 60s I have learned to speak up. Individual therapy helped a lot with this. Maybe it would help you to realize that once you think of what to say, it’s ok to bring it up with your spouse. When he undoubtedly says yy are bringing up the past, it is ok to say you are bringing it up because it hasn’t been resolved and you are still bothered by it. I brought the argument about the dog up again. We talked through it. I explained that I was trying to figure out what I had done wrong, how the dog got out, that I was reacting to his sarcasm. There were a few insights. He said, Sarcasm is good, isn’t it? I said, No. I don’t think so. Maybe it depends on whether you’re on the giving or receiving end of the sarcasm, but I don’t think it’s helpful. And then when we got to discussing the issue further it came out that he knew the dog was outside because he had heard the kids let the dog out. He felt I was hiding information from him, not that I scrambling to figure out what had happened. “Why couldn’t you just say, “I’m looking it up on my phone?” he asked in a blaming way. I asked him, “I’m lying in bed next to you, fumbling for my phone. Can’t you see that I’m looking it up on my phone?” There’s just so much anger and mistrust that we can’t even communicate about simple stuff. How the fuck do we get to just normal communication???
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Post by elynne on Mar 20, 2018 5:58:22 GMT -5
Given this: But if he could actually do a real reset, I think I’d fall hook, line and sinker. I’m so starved for his love and affection that I’d be pretty easy to manipulate. ... I strongly suggest you DO NOT dabble in outsourcing. If you happen to find an emotionally and intellectually compatible gentleman who gives you the soothing touch you crave, you will fall for him crazy hard. And if this happens, it will not be due to his manipulation... it will be due to something far more intoxicating: his honesty. So if I don’t dabble in outsourcing and I can’t get h to drop all the bitterness and resentment then my remaining option is to end it. Continuing on as is is not an acceptable solution. A few months ago, I proposed a ‘parenting’ marriage to him. That we approach raising the kids as business partners, take a relationship between the two of us off the table which removes the arguments and resentment over a lack of connection from my side, and gives him room not to feel guilty or bad about me being unhappy. His response, “absolutely not.” I’m really turning this problem around, approaching a solution from all angles to try to figure it out.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 20, 2018 6:16:44 GMT -5
Figure out what you want and figure out whether that is possible. Then take appropriate action.
Keep in mind that you can not change your husband’s behavior. He treats you with sarcasm,, contempt and sexual indifference. You can’t change her hose behaviors and it’s not likely he will change for the better.
Getting a lover won’t change him. It might blow up your marriage in a way that you seem at fault. A lover won’t give you a marriage in which you are treated with kindness and real love.
Individual therapy could help you as could journaling or other means allowing you to reflect on yourself and your options.
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Post by baza on Mar 20, 2018 6:41:10 GMT -5
In my case, back in the day of my ILIASM deal. this -- - - "I’m really turning this problem around, approaching a solution from all angles to try to figure it out" - translated as -- - - "I am really exploring every option, every alternative to doing what I know I should do"
But that was me. I would (and did) try anything and everything, even the most hare-brained of strategies. I was willing to do anything, go to any lengths, as long as it didn't involve me putting my marriage on the line.
That became my raison d'être. That became me...the bloke who searched for reasons not to get divorced... Being "the bloke who searched for reasons not to get divorced" was not a terribly life enhancing thing. And did absolutely fuck all to bring my situation to resolution.
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Post by elynne on Mar 20, 2018 8:51:32 GMT -5
In my case, back in the day of my ILIASM deal. this -- - - "I’m really turning this problem around, approaching a solution from all angles to try to figure it out" - translated as -- - - "I am really exploring every option, every alternative to doing what I know I should do" But that was me. I would (and did) try anything and everything, even the most hare-brained of strategies. I was willing to do anything, go to any lengths, as long as it didn't involve me putting my marriage on the line. That became my raison d'être. That became me...the bloke who searched for reasons not to get divorced... Being "the bloke who searched for reasons not to get divorced" was not a terribly life enhancing thing. And did absolutely fuck all to bring my situation to resolution. I’ve certainly put my marriage on the line. It’s either fix it or end it. And I’m pushing until we reach a conclusion. He knows that this is my last effort. I’m giving it everything I’ve got. Every last bit of courage, honesty, openness, vulnerability. I’m listening even to the stuff that’s really hard to hear. The stuff that I think is just him deflecting and shifting, I listen. With an open mind. Willing to own anything I do that contributes to our problems. Last night I really tried to talk with him. Shared that I was doing everything I could think of to save our marriage. Told him how much I was struggling, how alone I felt. With shame I quietly admitted that this past December driving along the dike in a snowstorm, I thought if I just drove off the dike and into the water that they would assume I lost control of the car. But then I thought h would need the car, so I drove carefully the rest of the way home. Quietly I told him that I still see lots of good in him. That he’s a dedicated father, he’s a very loyal friend, he’s very conscientious and responsible. During all of this he laid on the floor with his back to me, petting the dog. Then he got up without a word, without looking at me, went to wash his hands for a good 5 minutes. Then walked past me in the living room. Stopped, turned and said, “I’m going to bed. I don’t know what to say.” Last ditch effort this morning feeling completely down, I sent him a string of texts. Basically “I’m really, really trying here and I’m running out of things to try.” Suggested a Gottman style 3 day relationship retreat in the Wadden Islands where he proposed. And ended with: And his reply gives me hope. But now he’s got to back his words with actions. If he can’t then it’s over. He certainly can’t say he didn’t see it coming or that I didn’t try. baza your wisdom and the time you to take to reach out to those of us still in the trenches is so very appreciated. I don’t know which way we’re going to fall, fix it or divorce, but I do know that I’m not going to continue on as is. Too much collateral damage. And life is too fucking short.
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Post by Dan on Mar 20, 2018 9:30:11 GMT -5
A few months ago, I proposed a ‘parenting’ marriage to him. That we approach raising the kids as business partners, take a relationship between the two of us off the table which removes the arguments and resentment over a lack of connection from my side, and gives him room not to feel guilty or bad about me being unhappy. His response, “absolutely not.” It sounds like you were proposing an open-marriage arrangement, or some other form of consensual non-monogamy. Props to you for considering it, and for having the guts to present it. Refusers rarely go for this, however, as it solves (at least: addresses) your problem... but it doesn't solve any problem they have. Alas: if he can't a) agree to some form of consensual non-monogamy, b) start fucking you himself, he's going to end up with, c) a divorce he doesn't want either. (Non-consensual no-longer-celibacy?) Anyway, your idea reminds me of something called "bird nesting": www.equitablemediation.com/blog/nesting-plans-bird-nest-parentingThis is where divorced parents agree to not exchange the kids, but rather, the kids stay in the family home, and the parents swap in and out. Interesting idea; I don't know anyone who as tried this. The article lists pros and cons.
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