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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 14, 2018 22:31:31 GMT -5
I read the article you posted. Why did he ask if you thought he had a sexual addiction?
Does he? He seemed to hone in on that. Maybe like you said its not applicable but I thought it was interesting that he brought it up. Either because maybe he does have a porn problem and he thought the gig was up or it was an easy way to deflect the conversation.
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Post by elynne on Mar 15, 2018 3:24:07 GMT -5
elynne: Good news: my "engineer brain" tells me you are doing the exactly correct thing: trying to get the "team" to have a common assessment of the problem. First work on that. Then: make a list of possible ways to address the problem(s). Then: decide on strategy to work the solution(s), sequentially and/or in parallel. You are doing the right thing to lay this bare in front of him. Bad news: it doesn't sound like this is a way to engage/overcome his "avoidant brain". It’s a pretty logical approach, no?! I think I’m one of those rare beasts that feels comfortable with both logic and emotion. If I start talking about emotions with him he goes blank. I’m not a big cryer - a tear or two with something really touching, but all out crying? Not so much. Early on in this journey I mustered all my courage to tell him I wasn’t just afraid he didn’t love me but that I believed he didn’t even like me. Tears streaming down my face. The response was a blank stare. Not “oh honey, <hug> I’m sorry you feel that way.” Your point - my approach won’t engage his avoidant brain - right on the money. But if I could figure that out, I’d have the answer to the million dollar question. At one point he was completely infatuated with me, thought I was the bees knees. That feeling we both mistook for love. He brought balloons and cake to meet me at the airport. Planned surprise weekends away, proposed in the dunes on one knee, we slept entangled in each other’s arms. But I think actual intimacy; being vulnerable, empathetic, sharing: is too unsafe for him. There are 2 big hurdles. 1. I am just about the least judgmental person you’ll find. I’m wicked patient. If he doesn’t feel safe enough with me there’s a very small chance he’ll find it elsewhere. 2. Attributions. He is extremely resistant to admitting he plays any role in the problems. If you’ll excuse the psychobabble, he has trouble with whole object relations. In his mind, people are all good or all bad. He can’t recognize that I am essentially a very kind and loving person with some less desirable qualities. In our relationship this played out like this. I was a beautiful, intelligent, successful woman. H put me on a pedestal and believed he had finally met ‘the one’. H realized I was human and despite best intentions would forget the milk or leave a wet towel on the bed. His opinion of me began to sour because he can’t integrate my bad qualities with the rest of my good qualities. He begins to push me away. “Don’t touch me in bed. You disturb my sleep.” “Why are you calling me? Can’t that wait?” Body language: turning his back, ignoring me, eye rolls, disparaging comments. Those things cause a rift in a relationship. I believe those rifts can be repaired with openness and vulnerability. For example, “I’m sorry I reacted that way. I was feeling ashamed that I dropped the ball. I didn’t want to disappoint you. When I told you that I forgot, I felt attacked and went into defensive mode. What I really wanted to say was I’m sorry. I love you and I never want to hurt you. I felt awful when I realized that I forgot, especially when I thought about how you would feel if it made you feel like I don’t care about you. I’m going to work on this and do better. In fact, I’ll put an alarm in my phone from now on.” But if both partners can’t set aside the avoidant behavior, this sort of open and vulnerable apology falls on deaf ears. And, as in our relationship, it only ever flows in one direction. More food for thought.
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Post by elynne on Mar 15, 2018 3:43:17 GMT -5
elynne : For what its worth, I have hunches about your situation. Here goes: - You are earnest in this quest to fix things. If he turns around, you are ready to accept him. - But deep, deep down you rather doubt he will be able to make this turn. I conjecture that this move -- with all of its methodical rigor -- is actually serving two other purposes: - You are giving yourself TIME to come to terms with the fact that, in all likelihood, it is over. - You are giving yourself a CREDIBLE DEFENSE that you did everything you could think of (giving him this "last chance", plainly spoken as possible.) Who do you need to "defend" yourself from? Mostly, you need it for yourself, but you want to have it in your back pocket in case others in your life (relatives, friends) start getting nosy "why are you doing this"? Maybe even for you kids (current or future versions of them): you want to be able to say with head held high: I did everything I could think of. Again @dan, you’re hunches are right on the money. Although I think the credible defense is less for others and more for myself. I don’t want to sound pompous, but there’s not much I can’t do if I really put my mind to it. I’m pretty good at pulling out all the stops and finding unique solutions to solve tough problems or just throwing all my energy at it until I solve it. If I could do that with a near impossible project at work - how could I walk away from my husband and break up my family without putting in the same effort. It’s my own conscience not other people’s opinions driving me. But with a clean conscience, it’s much easier to respond honestly to critique from friends or family. And I have hope that the work now to improve communication will pay off in the long run. If we’re no longer in an intimate relationship, his avoidance is less triggered and perhaps communication is easier. I also hope that he sees the effort that I’m putting in to saving our marriage and if it doesn’t work that he’ll be more amicable with the divorce. I think actually having a warm and cuddly relationship with h is an enormous long shot, but going for it only has pluses.
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Post by Dan on Mar 15, 2018 5:58:13 GMT -5
elynne : For what its worth, I have hunches about your situation. Here goes: Again Dan , you’re hunches are right on the money. While I am hearing some differences in our spouses, I see great similarity in our hopes/expectations for the marital relationship, and in our approaches to try fix it. I have an urgent message for your husband: "Act now. The window is closing. I see in your spouse great determination to fix your marriage or get out. At some point, she will reach the point of no return: no longer willing to accept your meager attempts to make the marriage 'feel whole' for her. In fact: she is only moments away from this point." "She is like an expensive yacht... that you keep at the dock. You seem to take comfort that you 'own' such a beautiful vessel. But there are two problems: 1) If you never set sail -- appreciating the intimacy and true closeness a marriage can bring -- you are overlooking its very purpose. 2) The lines holding her there are not fast. If you do not act soon, she will slowly, quietly, drift out to sea... and she will be lost to you."
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Post by elynne on Mar 15, 2018 6:00:02 GMT -5
Again Dan , you’re hunches are right on the money. While I am hearing some differences in our spouses, I see great similarity in our hopes/expectations for the marital relationship, and in our approaches to try fix it. I have an urgent message for your husband: "Act now. The window is closing. I see in your spouse great determination to fix your marriage or get out. At some point, she will reach the point of no return: no longer willing to accept your meager attempts to make the marriage 'feel whole' for her. In fact: she is only moments away from this point." "She is like an expensive yacht... that you keep at the dock. You seem to take comfort that you 'own' such a beautiful vessel. But there are two problems: 1) If you never set sail -- appreciating the intimacy and true closeness a marriage can bring -- you are overlooking its very purpose. 2) The lines holding her there are not fast. If you do not act soon, she will slowly, quietly, drift out to sea... and she will be lost to you." Beautiful. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes. A ship at harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships were built for.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 8:19:50 GMT -5
But I think actual intimacy; being vulnerable, empathetic, sharing: is too unsafe for him. There are 2 big hurdles. 1. I am just about the least judgmental person you’ll find. I’m wicked patient. If he doesn’t feel safe enough with me there’s a very small chance he’ll find it elsewhere. 2. Attributions. He is extremely resistant to admitting he plays any role in the problems. If you’ll excuse the psychobabble, he has trouble with whole object relations. In his mind, people are all good or all bad. He can’t recognize that I am essentially a very kind and loving person with some less desirable qualities. But if both partners can’t set aside the avoidant behavior, this sort of open and vulnerable apology falls on deaf ears. And, as in our relationship, it only ever flows in one direction. More food for thought. That avoidant behavior comes from the fear of not having control. Even the smallest act if intimacy requires some submission (like those good bye pecks). They like those. They are quick and over! Before you even have a chance to put an arm around them, or touch them back, it's done, and they pull away. Just one more (check) off the list to stay in control. Notice when they occur? when they HAVE to be somewhere! No time for you, they remain in control. Allow me to share with you an example that just occured at our house. My now ex W. and her daddy (Grandpa) Grandpa: That light needs changing. W : I'll get one of the boys to do it. Grandpa: It's not a standard bulb. W: We have a whole lot of different kinds. Grandpa: I don't think we have that one. W: We keep them in the pantry, I'l have one of the boys look for it. Grandpa: You can send him to the store to get one. It's a real different kind, i don't think we got one. W: we've had those before, in the pantry. W: He has school and won't be here. Grandpa; I'll tell him when I see him. W: you won't see him, he's leaving. I'll text him. Grandpa: what about the other one? he don't come down stairs until noon? W: you can send him to the store. Grandpa: he don't have a car. W. his schedule is always changing, that's part of retail. (when does this occur? When she is leaving for work) And on , and on....... Think about how long that took? Think about all the "I must be correct, and I am in full control" that occurred in that conversation? There was no yielding, no giving, no service, no admitting that they could be wrong. It had to be done her way and her way only. Her way almost always involves forcing someone else to do the work, so she can be in control. During this whole ridiculous debate my ex w. could have gone to the pantry looked for the bulb, found it and changed it, or found that we don't have one, remove the old one and buy a new one on her way home and not involve anyone else. But NO... that's to submissive, that's not being in control. that could lead to more expectations of more acts of service. That might even lead to ....intimacy between her and her father. I am going to expand on these thoughts. (my best thoughts come during the shower) How would you or I have handled it? Well, I am much more ACTION and not full of manipulative controlling words. I make a good team player and not a leader. That's who I am. That does not mean I have to be taken advantage of! Grandpa: That light needs changing. Me: Okay, I'll do that. Grandpa: It's not a standard bulb. Me: I think we have some like that, I'll take it out and go get one. if I can't find one will you be okay without it until later today? Granppa: Yeah I'll be okay. thanks for doing that! Me: Sure, no problem. Your a good man ( as I give him a pat on the back) Anything else I can get you? All of this reminds me of the "coke machine analogy" and his daughter (my ex w.) spending all that time talk, talk, talk, about changing a light bulb! Like putting quarters in an empty coke machine! meanwhile no return, no action! But what it gives her is more control and more and more of us in the house get "brainwashed" to not ask mom to do things for you. Notice how this playes right back to a SM? You get "brainwashed" to no longer ask, and you feel guilty for even expecting what should be 'normal behavior". See it's not just you, they do it to others, and the whole family.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 8:48:56 GMT -5
While I am hearing some differences in our spouses, I see great similarity in our hopes/expectations for the marital relationship, and in our approaches to try fix it. I have an urgent message for your husband: "Act now. The window is closing. I see in your spouse great determination to fix your marriage or get out. At some point, she will reach the point of no return: no longer willing to accept your meager attempts to make the marriage 'feel whole' for her. In fact: she is only moments away from this point." "She is like an expensive yacht... that you keep at the dock. You seem to take comfort that you 'own' such a beautiful vessel. But there are two problems: 1) If you never set sail -- appreciating the intimacy and true closeness a marriage can bring -- you are overlooking its very purpose. 2) The lines holding her there are not fast. If you do not act soon, she will slowly, quietly, drift out to sea... and she will be lost to you." Beautiful. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes. A ship at harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships were built for Here on the island which, I live on in Florida we have another saying, "What are the two happiest days in a boat owners life? The day they buy it, and the day they sell it! Another helpful thought in your tug of war is " drop the rope and let your spouse land on their butt".
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Post by elynne on Mar 15, 2018 8:49:13 GMT -5
But I think actual intimacy; being vulnerable, empathetic, sharing: is too unsafe for him. There are 2 big hurdles. 1. I am just about the least judgmental person you’ll find. I’m wicked patient. If he doesn’t feel safe enough with me there’s a very small chance he’ll find it elsewhere. 2. Attributions. He is extremely resistant to admitting he plays any role in the problems. If you’ll excuse the psychobabble, he has trouble with whole object relations. In his mind, people are all good or all bad. He can’t recognize that I am essentially a very kind and loving person with some less desirable qualities. But if both partners can’t set aside the avoidant behavior, this sort of open and vulnerable apology falls on deaf ears. And, as in our relationship, it only ever flows in one direction. More food for thought. That avoidant behavior comes from the fear of not having control. Even the smallest act if intimacy requires some submission (like those good bye pecks). They like those. They are quick and over! Before you even have a chance to put an arm around them, or touch them back, it's done, and they pull away. Just one more (check) off the list to stay in control. Notice when they occur? when they HAVE to be somewhere! No time for you, they remain in control. Allow me to share with you an example that just occured at our house. My now ex W. and her daddy (Grandpa) Grandpa: That light needs changing. W : I'll get one of the boys to do it. Grandpa: It's not a standard bulb. W: We have a whole lot of different kinds. Grandpa: I don't think we have that one. W: We keep them in the pantry, I'l have one of the boys look for it. Grandpa: You can send him to the store to get one. It's a real different kind, i don't think we got one. W: we've had those before, in the pantry. W: He has school and won't be here. Grandpa; I'll tell him when I see him. W: you won't see him, he's leaving. I'll text him. Grandpa: what about the other one? he don't come down stairs until noon? W: you can send him to the store. Grandpa: he don't have a car. W. his schedule is always changing, that's part of retail. (when does this occur? When she is leaving for work) And on , and on....... Think about how long that took? Think about all the "I must be correct, and I am in full control" that occurred in that conversation? There was no yielding, no giving, no service, no admitting that they could be wrong. It had to be done her way and her way only. Her way almost always involves forcing someone else to do the work, so she can be in control. During this whole ridiculous debate my ex w. could have gone to the pantry looked for the bulb, found it and changed it, or found that we don't have one, remove the old one and buy a new one on her way home and not involve anyone else. But NO... that's to submissive, that's not being in control. that could lead to more expectations of more acts of service. That might even lead to ....intimacy between her and her father. The goodbye pecks! I’ve come to dislike them so much. It’s like being kissed by a chicken! And control is certainly an issue. H has the idea he has to “run the family.” I told him that the family doesn’t have to be “run”. But woah! That idea freaks him out! I think you’re right about control. But I don’t think control is the end goal. I think control is a strategy used to avoid feeling unsafe. I think in vulnerable moments they actually panic and freeze and the control is a distancing behavior to avoid the panic.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 8:54:55 GMT -5
You are right, it may not be the end goal, however it is a strategy to avoid. You have to hand it to them.... look how far it has gotten them! it is so ingrained in their being you will not significantly change it. And not for a significant amount of time. However YOU can change your environment, co-dependent behavior, and live a much more gratifying, intimate, loving life, receiving the trust and respect that you deserve! (hugs)
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 9:05:52 GMT -5
And control is certainly an issue. H has the idea he has to “run the family.” I told him that the family doesn’t have to be “run”. But woah! That idea freaks him out! here's a "me too' for you. (they are always helpful and supportive) Once during therapy my W. brought out a contract for me to sign. It entailed me leaving the house for a month so I could "see what it's like without her" . There where strings attached. All to her advantage. Fortunately I saw right through it (one of those rare times) I took that contract folded it up and kept it. I then said sternly, " NO, NO, NO, ... YOU leave the house for a month! WE do JUST FINE without you, when you are gone. You just continue to pay the bills on line. You are not needed and you won't be missed!" That. Ended. That.! Also now that my kids are all teens and adults, things run themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2018 10:55:48 GMT -5
Being on this forum is always eye opening even after 28 years of marriage. It's fairly remarkable how often the patterns repeat themselves. The morning peck, the "everything must be planned", etc.etc. Elynne you're doing the right thing and kudos to you for seeing it for what it is. I, too, have come to the full realization that it's all bout control. I suppose the bad news is that the causes of avoidant behavior and fear of intimacy are like my own spouse's then change will not be forthcoming. It's been some years now but I took a similar, rational, calm approach a few years ago. Mostly she can't see why I would have needs for more intimacy (I'm not talking about physical--emotional too) and what she can see looks like weakness to her. "Being needy"
Stick to your guns and make a decision one way or the other. I hope for you that this comes much earlier in your life than it did for me.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 15, 2018 11:35:32 GMT -5
elynneIt is sooooo scary how I could’ve written this entire thread as surfergirl and I wouldn’t have to change one detail.... Except, I’ve reached the point of no return. Refiled my petition for dissolution yesterday.
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Post by surfergirl on Mar 15, 2018 12:03:53 GMT -5
elynneIf you want to gaze into the crystal ball...... Your husband is not stupid and will start scrambling when he sees you’re serious. I had the above talk, too, and he didn’t even flinch when I threw down divorce papers. We are married to the same guy. When I moved forward with the financial settlement, stuff started getting real for him. You need to BRACE YOURSELF for The Reset. You will be reset. I’ve seen your picture and read your posts. He won’t let that go without a fight. You will need to up the ante, though. These avoidants don’t react until a piano crashes on their heads. Decide now if you’re willing to be reset..... the past year and a half of therapy, promises, arguing “I can’t be perfect” (as if I ever asked that), gaslighting has been horrible on my mental health. You have the opportunity to control yourself and your decisions. I made the huge mistake of hoping, bargaining, waiting.... My therapist wisely pointed out: after 21 years, you’ve paid your dues. If he wants to change, he can REMARRY you.
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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2018 12:42:53 GMT -5
Just to echo surfergirl comments. A quote from the movie" The Outlaw Josie Wales" comes to mind, "Get ready , little lady. Hell is coming to breakfast." My own experience showed that it took going all the way to the lobby of the court house before my ex would give in on anything, zero compromise!. Even then it carried on all the way to the judges chambers, and continues....
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Post by elynne on Mar 15, 2018 13:38:50 GMT -5
elynneIf you want to gaze into the crystal ball...... Your husband is not stupid and will start scrambling when he sees you’re serious. I had the above talk, too, and he didn’t even flinch when I threw down divorce papers. We are married to the same guy. When I moved forward with the financial settlement, stuff started getting real for him. You need to BRACE YOURSELF for The Reset. You will be reset. I’ve seen your picture and read your posts. He won’t let that go without a fight. You will need to up the ante, though. These avoidants don’t react until a piano crashes on their heads. Decide now if you’re willing to be reset..... the past year and a half of therapy, promises, arguing “I can’t be perfect” (as if I ever asked that), gaslighting has been horrible on my mental health. You have the opportunity to control yourself and your decisions. I made the huge mistake of hoping, bargaining, waiting.... My therapist wisely pointed out: after 21 years, you’ve paid your dues. If he wants to change, he can REMARRY you. Your therapist is a gem! What a brilliant reply! I don’t know if h is capable of performing a reset. We’ve only ever really done a downhill slide. His attempts at intimacy are making my coffee in the morning and pointing out if it smells like spring or an unusual bird. I appreciate those little things but it’s not enough. I don’t know if he’s capable of more. Me trying to get a kiss from him would be funny if it weren’t actually true. H: <beaklike peck on my cheek> Me: Kiss me again. H: You’ve already had a kiss today. Me: Kiss me again. <shy smile> Softer. Slowly. H: <beaklike peck on the cheek> leaves the house. I don’t ask anymore. I got tired of hitting my one peck a day limit. But if he could actually do a real reset, I think I’d fall hook, line and sinker. I’m so starved for his love and affection that I’d be pretty easy to manipulate.
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