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Post by elynne on Mar 13, 2018 4:21:18 GMT -5
I was away with a group of friends for a long weekend which gave me plenty of time to think. Returned yesterday and H left this morning for a week long conference. Yesterday I let him know via app that I wanted to talk after putting the kids to bed. He didn’t reply. Just before bedtime, I reminded him via app that we’d be talking later. Bedtime was drawn out... when he came downstairs he picked up his laptop and began talking about his conference in Switzerland. I redirected the conversation- I want to have a short talk - without any blame, without anger. I want to share with you my view of our problems. I’ve sent you the link to an article I’d like you to read. I’m not asking you to respond now. Take the week while you’re away to think about it. I see two hurdles. First, do you see the problems as I see them? If you don’t that’s fine- but I don’t see how it’s possible to work on it if you can’t see it. If you agree with my assessment, then the next question is are you willing to work on it and address it? If yes, then maybe we have a chance. If not, then we need to figure out the next steps. Things can’t continue the way that they are. He kept trying to put the blame for pushing me away on me. I was too tired to go there. I returned to my message. He told me that I was giving him ultimatums. I said yes. This is an ultimatum. Things can not continue the way that they are. I’m unhappy. He admitted he was unhappy. I brought up the point that our unhappy marriage was having a negative impact on the kids and that I feared they would have unhappy marriages of their own in the future if we don’t stop exposing them to our unhealthy example. I told him I was extremely lonely, that he has multiple strategies for avoiding intimacy. That being married to him was really painful. That I was hurt and angry and lonely. During our conversation he kept his laptop on his lap and held his phone to the side reading. I asked him directly, “You seem distracted. Are you hearing me?” He says, it’s unfair. You give me a diagnosis that you’ve come up with and force it on me. I said yes. I understand how you see that as unfair. You forget that I have a master’s in psychology and that I’ve spent a year reading everything I can to try to understand our problems. Read the article. Tell me if you recognize us in it. For me, it describes our issues very well. I’d be surprised if you don’t see parallels. We both agreed that things have only gotten worse since we started couples therapy 7 months ago. If he agrees that “intimacy Anorexia” or avoidant attachment is our issue I’ll see if I can find a therapist who deals specifically with those issues. If not, then I’ll sign the contract with the divorce lawyer that I met with back in December. As our conversation deteriorated, I told him “I’m really done. I’m going to bed.” When he came up later he asked me, “Do you think I have a sexual addiction?” I replied, “No. That’s the one part of the article that I don’t think applies.” He made no reply. This morning when he woke up he stroked my back. I think this was the first time he’s voluntarily touched me in a year. I thanked him for touching me. We’ll see how we responds when he returns from the trip. I’m not expecting much, but for myself I need to take these steps to ensure I’ve done everything I can - that way if I do call it quits I can do it with a clean conscience. It’s also really healthy for me to work on bringing up my fears, starting difficult conversations, facing problems head on. These aren’t my strong points, and this is a good opportunity to learn and grow as a person. The link that I sent him: drjanicecaudill.com/blog/is-intimacy-anorexia-the-hidden-sniper-in-your-marriage.html
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Post by DryCreek on Mar 13, 2018 5:16:24 GMT -5
elynne, you seem to be taking a very level-headed approach to this. His distraction during your conversation was disappointing to read; whether that's a reflection of his disengagement, or simply modern addiction to technology, you'd think the subject would've had him riveted to your words. At least he read the article enough to follow-up with a question. That's more than a lot of refusing spouses would do. But down to stalling bedtime to avoid conversation, his behavior seems classically avoidant of issues. If the stories at ILIASM have taught us anything, it's that we have to drive change, because our spouses certainly won't. Keep at it.
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Post by elynne on Mar 13, 2018 5:22:15 GMT -5
elynne, you seem to be taking a very level-headed approach to this. His distraction during your conversation was disappointing to read; whether that's a reflection of his disengagement, or simply modern addiction to technology, you'd think the subject would've had him riveted to your words. At least he read the article enough to follow-up with a question. That's more than a lot of refusing spouses would do. But down to stalling bedtime to avoid conversation, his behavior seems classically avoidant of issues. If the stories at ILIASM have taught us anything, it's that we have to drive change, because our spouses certainly won't. Keep at it. To be honest, I think he was trying to read the article on the side to be able to make counter arguments. He also said that he didn’t have the time to think about the relationship like I do. Too busy at work... making money. Insinuating that because I make less money I have more time. I thought to myself, “I think about our relationship while I’m biking to and from the studio, while I’m waiting in the schoolyard for the girls to come out of school, before bed...” I may or may not have more time, but solving this is a priority for me because it’s painful. I think the distance reduces pain or fear for him, but increases it for me. I was also happy that he read the article and picked one out of the 11 points that didn’t fit. Implying that he could see some truth in the other 10 points! And that he made an effort to touch me. When I told him that I hug and kiss my 60 year old female studio-mate more than I hug and kiss him, I got the -sigh-eyeroll- “we already know this.” No. I said. You don’t know this. But he was telling me “stop talking about my lack of affection.” He also wanted me to tell him “why” he had intimacy issues. I asked him, “Do you really want to go there with me? Or would you rather do that in your individual therapy?” H: My therapist thinks there’s nothing wrong with me. I asked have you told her we haven’t had sex in a year? I think he has attachment issues from his NPD mom and distant father, but he seems to think I’m the problem. I told him I’m not blameless. That my issues are with not feeling worthy of being loved by him, and putting up with his distancing behavior for too long. He brought up old issues - how I used to react as a defense for his current behavior. I told him yes. You’re absolutely right. Those were mistakes that I made in the past. Those are mistakes that I’m addressing and changing. Because I have made a mistake in the past does not mean I need to continue to make those mistakes in the future. (ie handing over responsibility for finances to him). It’s going to be a bumpy road, but at least we’re moving. And whether it’s toward divorce or a more intimate relationship - the destination is a better place than where I am now.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 13, 2018 6:47:56 GMT -5
From reading your "why did you get married" post and now this, I feel strong similarities to my own story, my first marriage, which was sexless for over 10 years.
Therapy won't help him DESIRE touch. He may do it for awhile to try to please you, but it won't change who he is at the core of him.
My ex and I talked in great lengths since we first got together how I needed touch and he didn't. Looking back it was futile on my part to think he'd ever change from a man who tenses up when his back is rubbed or put a two minute time limit on our hand holding sessions to someone who offers knee squeezes, neck kisses, back rubs, let alone initiate sex.
I know it might seem simplistic to say, but if talking about intimacy issues replaces intimacy, the chances of actual intimacy are slim to nil.
I am betting that back rub he offered you didn't actually feel like you wanted it to. I know when my ex tried to cuddle me once in bed I just felt pinned down by his massive, cold dead weight of an arm.
I'm just sharing because I do understand. I won't tell you to do this or that, it's your path and I do wish you peace and love.
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 13, 2018 6:59:13 GMT -5
It's great that you held his feet to the fire and made him discuss the issue. Here's the bottom line - He either makes effort to change and be the man that you want or he doesn't. Effort results in X and no effort results in Y. It's laughable that he asked if you are a sex addict - because the fact that we tolerate celibacy for so long proves that we aren't.
I really think it boils down to some people like sex and enjoy it and some people don't. I'm not interested in having sex with someone that doesn't know how to enjoy it.
You really did well with the discussion. He said you were giving him an ultimatum- he should be thankful you are giving him an ultimatum- I did not do that, I told my H we are done and had him served. (This is after years of trying and then me getting to the counter refuser point I called death on the marriage but we weren't divorced until 2 years later).
The ball is in his court but like you said keep your expectations low. Refusers are avoidant, they do the bare minimum, and relationships are tough no matter what so then we are with an avoidant person with intimacy issues - it really makes it tough to work out.
I really think the question(s) that you need to ask each other is "what do you do to make me feel loved?" Do you feel loved? What do you need to feel loved? Are you capable of making me feel loved?
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Post by elynne on Mar 13, 2018 6:59:43 GMT -5
From reading your "why did you get married" post and now this, I feel strong similarities to my own story, my first marriage, which was sexless for over 10 years. Therapy won't help him DESIRE touch. He may do it for awhile to try to please you, but it won't change who he is at the core of him. My ex and I talked in great lengths since we first got together how I needed touch and he didn't. Looking back it was futile on my part to think he'd ever change from a man who tenses up when his back is rubbed or put a two minute time limit on our hand holding sessions to someone who offers knee squeezes, neck kisses, back rubs, let alone initiate sex. I know it might seem simplistic to say, but if talking about intimacy issues replaces intimacy, the chances of actual intimacy are slim to nil. I am betting that back rub he offered you didn't actually feel like you wanted it to. I know when my ex tried to cuddle me once in bed I just felt pinned down by his massive, cold dead weight of an arm. I'm just sharing because I do understand. I won't tell you to do this or that, it's your path and I do wish you peace and love. Thank you for sharing with me. And that’s the trouble with paths, isn’t it? We all have to walk our own journey. I know that my end result may not be a happy and close marriage, but I know I won’t be able to walk away until I’m certain that horse is really dead. I need to kick it a little more 😬
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Post by bballgirl on Mar 13, 2018 7:23:02 GMT -5
From reading your "why did you get married" post and now this, I feel strong similarities to my own story, my first marriage, which was sexless for over 10 years. Therapy won't help him DESIRE touch. He may do it for awhile to try to please you, but it won't change who he is at the core of him. My ex and I talked in great lengths since we first got together how I needed touch and he didn't. Looking back it was futile on my part to think he'd ever change from a man who tenses up when his back is rubbed or put a two minute time limit on our hand holding sessions to someone who offers knee squeezes, neck kisses, back rubs, let alone initiate sex. I know it might seem simplistic to say, but if talking about intimacy issues replaces intimacy, the chances of actual intimacy are slim to nil. I am betting that back rub he offered you didn't actually feel like you wanted it to. I know when my ex tried to cuddle me once in bed I just felt pinned down by his massive, cold dead weight of an arm. I'm just sharing because I do understand. I won't tell you to do this or that, it's your path and I do wish you peace and love. Thank you for sharing with me. And that’s the trouble with paths, isn’t it? We all have to walk our own journey. I know that my end result may not be a happy and close marriage, but I know I won’t be able to walk away until I’m certain that horse is really dead. I need to kick it a little more 😬 That makes sense and you are doing that for yourself. That's smart! I did that - Feb 14, 2014- I drew my line in the sand, called time of death on my marriage, and became a counter refuser. Three months later I met my fwb who is still in my life and we had the most amazing sex. I had only been with my H up to the. When it came time for divorce I had done everything at least I thought so, H didn't, but we were never going to be able to have a happy marriage if we continued and I could see that but he couldn't. So I was happy to announce the divorce, I was happy to sign the papers, I was happy to be in that court room and end the marriage. There was no regret and the divorce was the right thing.
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Post by WindSister on Mar 13, 2018 7:29:33 GMT -5
Oh, that's completely understandable, Elynne. I did the same thing. Tried this, tried that. When you know, you know. But even then, there's a decoupling stage with doubt, maybe try again, until you know again. It's not an easy path, but I also felt movement, even the painful variety, was better than stagnation. As you stated above. Hang in there! Stay true to your heart!
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Post by elynne on Mar 13, 2018 12:35:22 GMT -5
Oh, that's completely understandable, Elynne. I did the same thing. Tried this, tried that. When you know, you know. But even then, there's a decoupling stage with doubt, maybe try again, until you know again. It's not an easy path, but I also felt movement, even the painful variety, was better than stagnation. As you stated above. Hang in there! Stay true to your heart! WindSister That’s so very true. Action, doing something, addressing the problems, facing them head on is so much better than sticking your head in the sand. It gives me a sense of calm and peace. When I first started down this path I thought “How am I going to convince H that we need to divorce?” It literally didn’t occur to me that I could simply demand one! At that point I had given away my self-determination, my power, completely. At this stage, I’ve met with the lawyer. I know roughly how things will wash out. It’s going to be tough, but I realize that I’ll be in charge of my own destiny and responsible for my successes or failures. And if or when the time comes, divorce will be my choice. I’ll have decided he’s not willing or capable of giving me the sense of love and partnership that I want. Who knows? Perhaps he’ll surprise me. Though I’m not holding my breath. Perhaps he’ll agree that we aren’t compatible. Either way he’ll have had years of chances to make a change. And I can rest easy knowing that I did everything I could.
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Post by elynne on Mar 13, 2018 15:13:16 GMT -5
He also said that he didn’t have the time to think about the relationship like I do. Too busy at work... making money. And after he comes home??? To busy doing laptop?, phone?, anything else but... focusing on the relationship. ? Is he too busy for his relationship for the kids or does he make time for them? Everybody on the planet is busy doing something. My kids are too busy to pick up their clothes off the floor because they're too busy playing their video games. "Too busy" doing X can be a code word for I don't really care about doing Y. So since he's too busy for a relationship, he should have no objection to an uncontested divorce. Just remind him how much money he will then have all to himself (but don't remind him about the child support). To be fair, he’s a pretty dedicated father. Granted I do the cooking, grocery shopping, taking the kids to school, picking them up, to and from sports 4x a week, the birthday parties, presents, play dates, school plays, read to them... But he helps with homework, goes to their games. Cares a great deal about them and how they’re raised. They’re a much higher priority for him than I am. And I’m ok with that. But as our marriage is undoubtedly falling apart, perhaps it would behove him to give it more attention. His choice - how much effort he’s willing to put in. It’s my choice how long I’m willing to stay. As far as divorce goes, it should be relatively straight forward (I hope!) It’s funny - h left this morning for a week and I’m feeling so peaceful. So ok with whatever the future brings. I just know I need to continue to stand up for myself, listen to my gut when it says something is off and keep facing down my fears and doing the right thing. I have faith that if I consistently do the right thing I’ll figure it out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 17:12:29 GMT -5
I hope your approach makes the kind of headway you're looking for. I took a similar approach a little over 10 years ago (I just turned 51) and made no headway and she remained highly avoidant. Ultimately her reaction was important for me to fully understand what I was dealing with and I could make my own stay/cheat/leave decision. I chose to stay for reasons that remain a good choice but I did have to accept that I wouldn't ever be loved how I would like to be loved.
I applaud you for taking the mature and rational measures that you did. No matter what happens, it was the right thing to do.
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Post by baza on Mar 13, 2018 17:37:30 GMT -5
I like how you've conducted things so far Sister elynne . In particular that you didn't say anything that you aren't prepared to deliver on - so you are conducting this negotiation with a great deal of credibility.
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Post by elynne on Mar 14, 2018 12:34:50 GMT -5
I like how you've conducted things so far Sister elynne . In particular that you didn't say anything that you aren't prepared to deliver on - so you are conducting this negotiation with a great deal of credibility. baza I like this a lot. I’m all too aware of my shortcomings, but I count being very open and fair among my strengths. Probably why I appreciate your comment so much. Thanks for being a bright spot in my day.
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2018 17:49:06 GMT -5
elynne: Good news: my "engineer brain" tells me you are doing the exactly correct thing: trying to get the "team" to have a common assessment of the problem. First work on that. Then: make a list of possible ways to address the problem(s). Then: decide on strategy to work the solution(s), sequentially and/or in parallel. You are doing the right thing to lay this bare in front of him. Bad news: it doesn't sound like this is a way to engage/overcome his "avoidant brain".
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2018 17:49:57 GMT -5
elynne : For what its worth, I have hunches about your situation. Here goes: - You are earnest in this quest to fix things. If he turns around, you are ready to accept him. - But deep, deep down you rather doubt he will be able to make this turn. I conjecture that this move -- with all of its methodical rigor -- is actually serving two other purposes: - You are giving yourself TIME to come to terms with the fact that, in all likelihood, it is over. - You are giving yourself a CREDIBLE DEFENSE that you did everything you could think of (giving him this "last chance", plainly spoken as possible.) Who do you need to "defend" yourself from? Mostly, you need it for yourself, but you want to have it in your back pocket in case others in your life (relatives, friends) start getting nosy "why are you doing this"? Maybe even for you kids (current or future versions of them): you want to be able to say with head held high: I did everything I could think of.
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