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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2018 14:41:13 GMT -5
I have thought about outsourcing in the past. I do not see a moral issue with it. You have the refuser not providing for the refused. I've never understood how a refuser would have a problem with the refusee getting sex outside of the marriage.
The refuser has no desire for sex. So what's the problem with the other one in the relationship going outside the marriage? There should be no problem.
Honestly, if sex is important in your life, then why stay with someone who will not meet that need? I know about children, houses, wealth, etc... as reasons to stay.
I agree with shynjdude. You have to be authentic to yourself. I would say this applies to the refusers in marriage. They need to be authentic and accept that they cause unnecessary suffering to their spouses.
Might I even put the refusee into the equation of causing suffering to their spouses. I could not imagine not desiring someone and having them bother me for sex all the time. Having to come up with excuses and dodging their spouses. Imagine, it's not a marriage but a situation at a party. You're trying to avoid someone that irritates you. I'm sure it's like this for the refusers, but on a daily basis.
In my case, outsourcing in the beginning would have stunted my growth. I had to face my responsibility for the failings of my marriage and my life. I had to understand why I needed intimacy and sex to feel happy. Many times in our life, we are alone. For me, I had to find happiness being alone. Learning to be alone is what has brought me the most freedom. I can be happy without my spouse.
Don't get me wrong, I still love sex and it makes me happy. But it's not a sole driver of my happiness.
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Post by baza on Mar 19, 2018 18:14:41 GMT -5
If you are pretty happy within yourself, then you are on a winner. You are NOT reliant on another person to "make you happy", nor are you turning yourself inside out to try and "make someone else happy". From such a self assured position, you are ideally placed avail yourself of all sorts of interesting aspects of life, and among those things might be meaningful friendships with people at various depths. There may even be persons who come into your orbit who might meet your criteria for a primary relationship, who might actually "value add" to your life potentially. And, inevitably, there will be persons who come into your orbit who potentially may deplete your life too. But if you conduct yourself in a manner true to yourself, you are likely to attract some persons of a similar view as yours, and, for all the "right" reasons you might figure the stand alone you - and the stand alone them - have the capability of together enhancing each others lives. Not by surrendering your (or their) lives up to the other but rather by forging an alliance between the two autonomous individuals and mutually enjoying the synergy thus created. But you remain yourself. And they remain themself. Happy within yourselves as autonomous individuals, choosing a partnership, which value adds to them both. And quite likely rooting each other with great enthusiasm and desire as the "cherry on top". A read of the full run of Sisters elkclan2 and WindSister stories would show you this in action. But take note that their present circumstances were years in the making, and involved plenty of heartache along the way.
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Post by solodriver on Mar 21, 2018 3:17:57 GMT -5
I like the movie "Same Time Next Year" with Alan Alda in it. It's about 2 people who had an affair but only met once a year to have their affair. It follows them for years as they continued their relationship.
I don't think for me once a year would be enough, considering I've been in a SM for the past 18 years and am climbing the trees as it is, lol. But it's still a fun movie to watch.
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Post by elynne on Mar 21, 2018 3:27:14 GMT -5
Might I even put the refusee into the equation of causing suffering to their spouses. I could not imagine not desiring someone and having them bother me for sex all the time. Having to come up with excuses and dodging their spouses. Imagine, it's not a marriage but a situation at a party. You're trying to avoid someone that irritates you. I'm sure it's like this for the refusers, but on a daily basis. @heraclitus, This is an interesting point. I think my h feels pressure to try to be intimate. There were years when he’d turn me down but then a day or two later initiate intimacy. I suspect he felt a responsibility but that he needed to be in control of ‘when.’ As the relationship devolved, my attempts at intimacy repulse him. He’ll push me away. He once admitted that having sex with me now would feel like having sex on a first date. And my last attempt to be playful and kiss him was met with a strong negative reaction. “It feels like you’re raping me.” He doesn’t discuss (or perhaps even understand) his feelings, but I strongly suspect that any attempts I make at intimacy cause him to feel like he’s failing as a husband. And that sense of failing and underlying shame leads to strong reactions to protect his self esteem. If he’s rejecting enough, I’ll stop initiating intimacy which let’s him avoid his sense of failure. I’m very unhappy with the state of our relationship, but I don’t think he’s any happier with it. I don’t know if it will help us to solve it, but putting ourselves in the refuser’s shoes may help us to be more compassionate. And in coming to a resolution compassion from the refusee’s side is critical. It seems to me that the refuser generally has a difficulty feeling, understanding and expressing emotion. I also believe that as the refusee we’re a bit more comfortable in the realm of feelings- even though they may be painful ones!
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Post by solodriver on Mar 21, 2018 3:36:11 GMT -5
I have thought about outsourcing in the past. I do not see a moral issue with it. You have the refuser not providing for the refused. I've never understood how a refuser would have a problem with the refusee getting sex outside of the marriage. The refuser has no desire for sex. So what's the problem with the other one in the relationship going outside the marriage? There should be no problem. Honestly, if sex is important in your life, then why stay with someone who will not meet that need? I know about children, houses, wealth, etc... as reasons to stay. I agree with shynjdude. You have to be authentic to yourself. I would say this applies to the refusers in marriage. They need to be authentic and accept that they cause unnecessary suffering to their spouses. Might I even put the refusee into the equation of causing suffering to their spouses. I could not imagine not desiring someone and having them bother me for sex all the time. Having to come up with excuses and dodging their spouses. Imagine, it's not a marriage but a situation at a party. You're trying to avoid someone that irritates you. I'm sure it's like this for the refusers, but on a daily basis. In my case, outsourcing in the beginning would have stunted my growth. I had to face my responsibility for the failings of my marriage and my life. I had to understand why I needed intimacy and sex to feel happy. Many times in our life, we are alone. For me, I had to find happiness being alone. Learning to be alone is what has brought me the most freedom. I can be happy without my spouse. Don't get me wrong, I still love sex and it makes me happy. But it's not a sole driver of my happiness. As I read this post tears and pain came to me, because that's exactly the way it is in my marriage.
I want to have the same experience that surfergirl had.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 22:09:34 GMT -5
For me, I had to find happiness being alone. Learning to be alone is what has brought me the most freedom. I can be happy without my spouse. This is so wise. Learning to be happy alone, happy with yourself. I had to learn to love myself, to be my own best advocate and to look in the mirror and like what I saw before I could leave. I’m in the early stages post-filing. Filing for divorce feels like the most self-honoring thing I’ve ever done. I finally have my own back. I finally realized I deserve better and followed through on it.
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kittymox
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Post by kittymox on Mar 22, 2018 2:12:56 GMT -5
And my last attempt to be playful and kiss him was met with a strong negative reaction. “It feels like you’re raping me.” Daaaamn. I've heard this, too. I went through 48 hours of absolute hell, convinced I was a rapist. I shudder to remember it now. The concept of responsive desire is legit-- allowing yourself to be physically seduced by another's touch. It's not a teenager on a date or a stranger in a club, for crying out loud, it's your spouse! There's a baseline of consent when you marry or enter into a LTR and it's reasonable to expect your spouse be open to experiencing responsive desire without throwing around terms like 'rape'. Argh. Now I'm all angry again, for both of us.
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Post by baza on Mar 22, 2018 3:00:43 GMT -5
You need to keep in mind that what a refuser might *say* does not have to be the gospel truth. It can also be an outright lie. But, as long as it stops you in your tracks, the aim (of avoiding sexual contact with you) is achieved. So from that point of view, it doesn't really matter if what they *say* is factually based or is complete bullshit. It stops you in your tracks.
In this instance, you know it's bullshit, he knows it's bullshit. But it doesn't matter. Wouldn't matter if it was Gods own truth. The aim was to stop you in your tracks and avoid sexual contact with you.
And to that end, a lie will do the job just as effectively as the truth....as you see here.
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Post by elynne on Mar 22, 2018 3:08:07 GMT -5
You need to keep in mind that what a refuser might *say* does not have to be the gospel truth. It can also be an outright lie. But, as long as it stops you in your tracks, the aim (of avoiding sexual contact with you) is achieved. So from that point of view, it doesn't really matter if what they *say* is factually based or is complete bullshit. It stops you in your tracks. In this instance, you know it's bullshit, he knows it's bullshit. But it doesn't matter. Wouldn't matter if it was Gods own truth. The aim was to stop you in your tracks and avoid sexual contact with you. And to that end, a lie will do the job just as effectively as the truth. And that brings me to the question, if it’s an outright lie, how do you communicate openly in order to solve the problems? Seems like if one spouse is open and honest and trying to fix things and the other is hiding and lying and throwing up roadblocks- that leaves little hope for successfully building a loving and supportive partnership. <sigh> another step in understanding how slim the odds are of turning our SM around.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 3:18:55 GMT -5
<sigh> another step in understanding how slim the odds are of turning our SM around. This could be the motto of ILIASM.
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Post by baza on Mar 22, 2018 4:18:21 GMT -5
Quoting you here Sister elynne - "And that brings me to the question, if it’s an outright lie, how do you communicate openly in order to solve the problems? Seems like if one spouse is open and honest and trying to fix things and the other is hiding and lying and throwing up roadblocks- that leaves little hope for successfully building a loving and supportive partnership" The golden rule here is to make your assessments of your spouse based on their actions. Not his words. His actions. That will cut through quite a few layers of bullshit and will go a long way in revealing the true picture. Be aware that the picture you uncover is unlikely to be a pleasant one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 5:45:00 GMT -5
And that brings me to the question, if it’s an outright lie, how do you communicate openly in order to solve the problems? Seems like if one spouse is open and honest and trying to fix things and the other is hiding and lying and throwing up roadblocks- that leaves little hope for successfully building a loving and supportive partnership. I remember having this discussion with my therapist a few years back. Essentially, she said it’s impossible to have an authentic and healthy relationship with someone who isn’t accountable for their actions and who consistently deflects and projects blame and refuses to come to the table earnestly and with a degree of humility that all partners must have in healthy relationships. My H is notorious for gaslighting, manipulating, lying by omission (or outright), and many other non-starters for a healthy marriage. Truth is, he’s emotionally and psychologically handicapped. I have a lot of compassion for him. I’ll always love him. He’s a good man in many ways. I just can’t do the unhealthy codependent dance anymore. I don’t even want to. There’s no growth and no hope in it - for either of us. A good friend recently shared this: when you’ve lost all psychological capital with your spouse, it’s time to go. In other words, if your spouse no longer respects, responds to, or can be inspired by you (assuming your intentions are good), what’s the point? In all honesty, I know I am not inspiring the best in my husband. Quite the opposite, I’ve enabled some very bad behaviors over the years. I taught him how to treat me over the years by staying. I honestly think I owed it to both of us and the paths of our respective souls to leave. Sad truth.
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