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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 11:27:30 GMT -5
From previous threads, it seems that while there are some seriously dysfunctional marriages out here in ILIASM land, there are also some marriages where there is respect and fun and enjoyment.
Just no sex.
The demarcation line is fuzzy, of course - when there is no sex, there is almost invariably a loss of self-esteem, a feeling of being unwanted and undesirable, and those feelings spill into the marriage and invariably affect it in other ways.
From another of my previous threads, most people seem to agree that it isn't only sex that they crave, but intimacy. One without the other is not enough for most.
For those marriages, could an affair - preferably long term, preferably with intimacy - be a solution, and not a stopgap?
It seems to me, and there is some anecdotal evidence on this board, that some affairs can boost one's self-esteem - so much so that the toxic parts of being refused for so long can disappear instantly. The knowledge that there is nothing wrong with YOU must be a very powerful feeling. It can take the edge off the lack of sex in the marriage and the effects that has on the marriage, making the non-sexual activities between the husband and wife more enjoyable. The resentment in the marriage can disappear if one knows that there is someone out there who desires them.
In the best case, the affair would be between two people who are both in SMs and both not wanting to divorce, who both want sex and intimacy.
Could this be an ideal?
Of course there are potential pitfalls. One can fall in love with their AP and decide to end the marriage. The refuser can find out and the marriage can blow up anyway. If there is a nasty breakup between APs one can go bananas and tell the other's refuser. If one decides to end the marriage, then they would no longer need to meet the AP as they would presumably be free to date whomever they want publicly. It might erode one's sense of morality and hurt one's self esteem in other areas. For some, having the taste without having the whole enchilada might be more painful than not to have it at all.
But if it is done carefully, with ground rules set ahead of time and and with both APs knowing that keeping their marriages intact is their paramount concern (meaning that they will only meet when there is a great alibi), and hopefully where they can not only share sex but also intimacy, then could this be the best solution for some?
I know that's a lot of "ifs." But once that maze is navigated, it sure sounds to me like a well-planned separate sexual and intimate relationship might be the ideal solution for some people. (Assuming that they can find an AP who has these desires in common, which might be the hardest part of all.)
Possible? Or is such a solution just a detour towards an inevitable divorce?
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Post by cagedadventurer on Feb 9, 2018 12:05:35 GMT -5
"so much so that the toxic parts of being refused for so long can disappear instantly. The knowledge that there is nothing wrong with YOU must be a very powerful feeling. It can take the edge off the lack of sex in the marriage and the effects that has on the marriage, making the non-sexual activities between the husband and wife more enjoyable. The resentment in the marriage can disappear if one knows that there is someone out there who desires them."
As much as it may go against our "honorable" natures to cheat, under the circumstances having an AP no longer feels like cheating to me. I like the way you frame the IF's here. So If I had an AP match nearby and that relationship did remove the negative effects of my SM, I think it is possible but I think only for a time. Caveat - if one of us is not married, it may not be adequate for long term. But looking down the long term telescope today - change is inevitable regardless. Some great sex in the meantime could do wonders.
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Post by Dan on Feb 9, 2018 12:18:23 GMT -5
For those marriages, could an affair - preferably long term, preferably with intimacy - be a solution, and not a stopgap? It seems to me, and there is some anecdotal evidence on this board, that some affairs can boost one's self-esteem... In the best case, the affair would be between two people who are both in SMs and both not wanting to divorce, who both want sex and intimacy. Possible? Or is such a solution just a detour towards an inevitable divorce? I decided to start outsourcing (though I did not know that term at the time) precisely to have some positive experiences while I worked on my marriage. I really felt I could do both. And, basically, it worked for me. So consider me one of those anecdotal "successes": got much more good than bad out of it. It bought me the time I needed to 1) stay in the marriage* to work on it, try to fix the sexlessness in the marriage, 2) stay in the marriage* long enough to launch the kids, and fulfill my "fatherly duty" (even though my wife was not performing her "wifely duty"). * "stay in the marriage" == "stay in the marriage long enough without my soul getting crushed in despair from sexlessness". I had some good to great sex; fell in love once (best year of my life); learned a lot about me; challenged and changed some of my social/moral values/beliefs I had about sex and intimacy. Did my marriage get fixed while I was doing this? No. With EP ILIASM and this forum, I've realized she's not the partner for me. Not sexually, not interpersonally, not emotionally. Did the affairs "hinder the marriage"? I still think no. I think they allowed me to get to the "the marriage isn't working, and won't ever work in the way that I want it to." Was all that philandering "just a detour"? I don't see it that way. I see it as "exploring some roads in my life that needed exploring". Shame I had to stomp on a whole mess of social mores to do it, but, c'est la vie. I say it this way: "the detour helped me better map out the Valley of Sexlessness in which my life has been stuck. And at this point, I think I've charted a way out, with the help of the updated map I now have from my wandering." So: that's still a success. UPDATE: I want to be clear, for me outsourcing was an "answer" to the SM only in that it kept me sane while seeing if I could "fix" the SM. The way in which it helped me "resolve" the sexlessness is that it help me understand how much I want to be out of the SM.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 12:23:39 GMT -5
DanWas the home a happier place while you were outsourcing?
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Post by Dan on Feb 9, 2018 12:39:40 GMT -5
Dan Was the home a happier place while you were outsourcing? Yes: home was happier. With regular booster-shots of happiness, I believe was a better husband, a better dad, and probably even a better employee. The "better husband" part means: less naggy toward her about sex; less unhappy when she said "no"; able to focus on household chores better. In most phases, I'd say she was NOTABLY happier. That's not to say there weren't some dark moments. I definitely was dealing with "break-up blues" in various ways when an AP relationship ended. But, still, on average, the home life (for everyone in the home) was better. IMO. I'm not saying "this is the best path" or "this is what everyone should do". I admit: there were tons of potholes, and a few cliffs along this route. This was not a "safe" path. But, my analysis at this point is: I'm better off for it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 12:43:37 GMT -5
Thanks, Dan. That is pretty much what I was envisioning. It will be interesting to hear if anyone else managed to do the same.
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Post by Dan on Feb 9, 2018 12:47:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Dan . That is pretty much what I was envisioning. It will be interesting to hear if anyone else managed to do the same. Sheesh. While I'm proud of myself that I took this journey (instead of cowering in sexless loneliness), I never really aspired to be some sort of spokesperson for "there is the positive potential of marital infidelity". Oh well!
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Post by bballgirl on Feb 9, 2018 12:53:35 GMT -5
I definitely fit this category. When I met my AP we were both married and we set the ground rules. He was not looking to divorce and I was not looking to divorce so soon. My exit plan was a 4 or 5 year plan at the time.
My AP restored my self esteem. So did other men.
There are so many people out there looking for so many different things.
Lots of variables.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 9, 2018 12:59:07 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Jackie Kennedy lived with Maurice tempelsman for the last years of her life but he was still married as I recall. So for whatever reason Jackie and her guy never married. I figure if an affair is good enough for Jackie Kennedy it oughta be good enough for at least some other people. Though I imagine their circumstances were much different than mine.
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Post by saarinista on Feb 9, 2018 13:09:19 GMT -5
For those marriages, could an affair - preferably long term, preferably with intimacy - be a solution, and not a stopgap? It seems to me, and there is some anecdotal evidence on this board, that some affairs can boost one's self-esteem... In the best case, the affair would be between two people who are both in SMs and both not wanting to divorce, who both want sex and intimacy. Possible? Or is such a solution just a detour towards an inevitable divorce? I decided to start outsourcing (though I did not know that term at the time) precisely to have some positive experiences while I worked on my marriage. I really felt I could do both. And, basically, it worked for me. So consider me one of those anecdotal "successes": got much more good than bad out of it. It bought me the time I needed to 1) stay in the marriage* to work on it, try to fix the sexlessness in the marriage, 2) stay in the marriage* long enough to launch the kids, and fulfill my "fatherly duty" (even though my wife was not performing her "wifely duty"). * "stay in the marriage" == "stay in the marriage long enough without my soul getting crushed in despair from sexlessness". I had some good to great sex; fell in love once (best year of my life); learned a lot about me; challenged and changed some of my social/moral values/beliefs I had about sex and intimacy. Did my marriage get fixed while I was doing this? No. With EP ILIASM and this forum, I've realized she's not the partner for me. Not sexually, not interpersonally, not emotionally. Did the affairs "hinder the marriage"? I still think no. I think they allowed me to get to the "the marriage isn't working, and won't ever work in the way that I want it to." Was all that philandering "just a detour"? I don't see it that way. I see it as "exploring some roads in my life that needed exploring". Shame I had to stomp on a whole mess of social mores to do it, but, c'est la vie. I say it this way: "the detour helped me better map out the Valley of Sexlessness in which my life has been stuck. And at this point, I think I've charted a way out, with the help of the updated map I now have from my wandering." So: that's still a success. Great points all but if I may, Dan I think we should perhaps change the phrase wifely duty to spousal Duty as it's not only wives who are neglecting to fulfill their sexual spousal expectations. tee-hee I know what you mean and I'm not trying to give you a hard time but really I find that phrase "wifely Duty" so sex negative and so limiting, I'm growing to hate it. It perpetuates an idea that women are only supposed to like sex as a job that they do to stay married. I personally don't think that's the jolliest view of sex that one might have. I don't have children if I did I would hope I would be able to somehow raise them, regardless of gender, seeing sex as more than a bargaining chip.
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Post by choosinghappy on Feb 9, 2018 15:53:22 GMT -5
@shynjdude Regarding your question on whether "an affair - preferably long term, preferably with intimacy - [could] be a solution, and not a stopgap":
I think that if the two people are both in it for the same reasons and as long as neither one's situations or desires change it can be a very happy alternative. I hesitate to use the word "solution" though because while it is likely solving the problem of sexlessness and/or an intimacy-free life it is not solving the problem of your sexless marriage.
I outsource and yes, it does everything for me that I need it to: sex, intimacy, desire, self-confidence. But even with all those positives I cannot agree that "the resentment in the marriage can disappear if one knows that there is someone out there who desires them". The resentment I feel towards my H is still there even though my AP has added huge positives into my life. My outsourcing helps to change ME but it doesn't do much to change my marriage, either positively or negatively.
As for wondering whether "having the taste without having the whole enchilada...[is] more painful than not to have it at all": The jury is still out on that one for me since it's only been a handful of months. But I already know I want the whole enchilada. I want love and sex and intimacy and desire AND fun, family and security as well, without having to hide or lie. But in the meantime, outsourcing is helping me immensely as I work towards making a change in my marriage.
I think that as long as two people truly are on the same page it can work for an amount of time. Whether that's short-term or long-term I do not know as it depends on the players and their situations and feelings. Pessimistic (or realistic??) me though, thinks it is more just a detour to the inevitable. Or maybe that's just because that is likely to be my own path...
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Post by surfergirl on Feb 9, 2018 16:03:18 GMT -5
choosinghappy Very astute observation. Thank you for that. For whatever it's worth, I will attest that being desired does help me feel better.
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Post by baza on Feb 9, 2018 18:31:36 GMT -5
Disclaimer - Personally I am not a fan of cheating. Not on any moral basis (it is a perfectly valid choice) but rather that it chucks another layer of complication over an already complex dysfunctional situation. It makes the core problem harder to resolve. And it runs the big risk of collapsing your primary relationship in disorderly fashion. Introducing a 3rd party into an already dysfunctional situation can and does spin things off at some crazy tangents. That's my objection to it. In and of itself it does NOTHING to resolve the core problem. Just so you know where I am coming from. There are many many potential bear traps in the cheating option, but there are likewise some really good short term upsides to it as well. For example - You get a root...that's a good thing. You feel good...that's a good thing. Your self esteem rises...another good thing. You gain some knowledge of what people who like sex are like...good information to have. You get a renewed perspective on normal human sexuality...a good thing to be exposed to. You likely feel like a *real* woman / man...another good thing. All of these things - and more - could help you cope with, and stay in, your ILIASM shithole by providing a bit of respite. Of course it could be argued that prolonging your ILIASM shithole ain't necessarily such a great idea. OTOH, you could get a result like ironhamster has experienced with the cheating accelerating the end of the ILIASM shithole. And that ain't necessarily a bad thing. I won't try and be a downer and argue that case here. This is essentially about the upsides of cheating - and there are plenty of them.
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Post by ironhamster on Feb 9, 2018 21:54:39 GMT -5
I can attest to the positive attributes to having an affair that others have listed.
In my case, it is actually speeding up the end of the marriage. This is, of course, because I told my wife that, yes, indeed, that was exactly what I was doing. My intent had been to stay until the last kid launched. My stbx is more interested in splitting. I am not happy my youngest daughter will be caught up in this shit show, but, otherwise, I am at ease.
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Post by DryCreek on Feb 10, 2018 0:23:20 GMT -5
But I already know I want the whole enchilada. I want love and sex and intimacy and desire AND fun, family and security as well, without having to hide or lie. Ah, the enchilada... how to have only "part"? I don't want just the crispy, cheesy part on the top. Sex, intimacy, love... if I was a consultant, I'd be drawing a 3-legged stool right now, to illustrate how you can't leave out one leg. But that's me, and probably why I'd be a bad candidate for a "proper" affair. But there seem to be plenty of folks who are OK with compartmentalizing, and sourcing each of those things from different people. For them, the concept of "multi-sourcing" might work, at least for a while. (Subject to baza's excellent caveats and pitfalls.)
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