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Post by northstarmom on Nov 17, 2017 7:28:48 GMT -5
“We had some really great times but it would be much better I think, just to rip off the Band-Aids, throw the stuff in the truck and move on. All the common property and accumulated crap is a barrier to that. So are the pets - a thousandfold.
Just trying to figure out what to say, which is really just me stalling myself, then probably cry my guts out and get down to the mechanics of it all.”
Individual therapy can give you support and the clarity with how to proceed.
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maninfull
New Member
Posts: 14
Age Range: 56-60
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Post by maninfull on Nov 22, 2017 12:11:40 GMT -5
Threatening to leave without the will to do so is coercion, and it doesn't work. I knew I was ready to leave when I realized I was no longer angry, and that's when I got scared. But that's also when I was able to be honest with myself and put the exit plan into (slow) motion.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 23, 2017 12:26:43 GMT -5
The 6 year fuse is revealing as to your motive on the "coercion" front. When unclear about a motivation or intent, LOOK TO THE RESULT and infer the meaning from there.
A 6 year fuse on a divorce is tantamount to saying to your spouse (who doesn't want to fuck you), "I intend no consequence for the better part of a decade, and then we'll see. I intend to manage my expectations of our relationship thusly, so you can relax for the forseeable future." Then, in six years, you'll start deciding what to do, and she can decide THEN whether the value is worth the cost, which you have been paying on your own all this time.
But the fact that you want to convey the impression that the timer is ticking, when you aren't seriously considering acknowledging the change in your relationship status in any meaningful way, implies that this is a coercive manipulation tactic that lacks teeth. It says "We're getting a divorce if you don't change," but in effect, telegraphs your intent not to get divorced - which is your REAL intent. Simply, this is a tactic aimed at getting her to change her behavior.
The time when you leave will be when you accept that you don't have a sexual relationship with that woman, and then decide whether the relationship you DO have actually meets your definition of a marriage. If it doesn't, then the notion of "restoring" something goes out the window, and the decision changes to one of choosing to be authentic about what your relationship is.
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Post by james on Nov 23, 2017 12:57:23 GMT -5
Maninfull and Apocrypha- thank you for your comments. There has been some discussion about this thread elsewhere recently and I thought I would add an update to this thread, as my thinking on this topic has evolved (and many thanks to all those who contributed).
There was some debate about whether or not threatening to leave was coercion- or simply honesty.I think the answer is, it can be either, depending upon the intention of the person who is doing the threatening.
Scenario 1: If the person who is threatening to leave actually has no intention of doing so, but is simply using this as a tactic to persuade (coerce) his or her partner to have sex, then clearly this is coercion. From the posts that others have made on this thread, the chances of that actually leading to a meaningful sex life are zero.
Scenario 2: If the person threatening to leave actually does intend to leave right now, and is simply making this known to his or her partner, then that is honesty and contains no coercive element at all. The refusing partner is being presented with a choice: either do something proactive about our sex life (if you like, up to you, I don't expect that you will want to); or, my plan is to leave. That is honesty.
Scenario 3: The subject of this thread is actually a different, and seems to lie in between scenarios 1 and 2 above. It goes: I am giving you some time to turn things around; if they haven't been turned around by the end of that time, then I am leaving. This scenario seems to contain elements both of coercion and of honesty. Having read csl's blog post (see page 2 of this thread), I thought that this approach seemed fair and reasonable. However, on further reflection and having digested responses on this thread, I now think: (1) 6 years is a stupidly long time over which to try to implement this and (2) it is actually meaningless to put something so significant and drastic as a divorce threat so far into the future. Just wouldn't work. Six months might be a more reasonable timeframe.
As Dan and Jenm have been saying on the 'Justified or just a bitch' thread, it is easier just to maintain a facade rather than drop timebombs that could blow the whole thing up. If the topic comes up, I will just say 'I don't want to be in a sexless marriage' and leave it to her to interpret that as she will. That's my current plan, anyway.
Again sincere thanks to all who have helped my thinking on this.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 23, 2017 14:17:05 GMT -5
I really appreciate the clarity that you laid out here. Last month I really changed my whole situation by laying out my cards kind of before I was ready. My timeline Remains the Same I won't break up my family for at least another four and a half years. However for me I am working really hard on being a more authentic genuine and alive person.
Now I'm in the situation where the idea of separation now and divorce in 5 years has motivated my h to do some intense soul searching and self work. I am.... cautious in this moment. It is not clear to me how to proceed. I am afraid of things not working and then the idea of peaceful separation not being viable. Until a month ago we were really distant and living just like roomates and the separation idea seemed more possible.
Anywau, your clarity reflects good work on your part. This is all fucking hard so you should feel proud of your hard work.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 23, 2017 20:11:18 GMT -5
Sometimes the declaration of a future action is not a threat, or at least not intended as such. Sometimes it is just an honest way to give our spouse the chance to plan.
Some spouses may take proactive measures to change that outcome. Some may even succeed. Others will get their resumes and skills up to date. I hope none of us suffer through a breakup with a spouse that fights it. I would prefer peaceful resolutions, no hard feelings, and the mutual acceptance of incompatability.
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Post by baza on Nov 23, 2017 20:52:41 GMT -5
Coercion (or attempts at it) are far from rare in here.
My own version was "you need to get your shit together so we can sort this deal out". My missus version - "If we divorce I'll take you for every dollar you have".
Other versions seen here - "if you don't start having sex with me I'll leave" "if you leave I will top myself" "if you don't start rooting me I will have an affair". "if you have an affair you will never see the kids again". etc etc etc
It is all *coercion* (or at least attempts at it)
It is all meaningless drivel, unless you (or your spouse) are prepared to call out the bullshit, and do what you say you are going to do.
These common situations of ours leave no place for bullshit or idle threats or brinkmanship or bluff.
Threats / coercion are pretty useless tools and are usually only employed by a spouse in a weak position rather than from a fully informed strong position.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 24, 2017 0:25:44 GMT -5
Going back to your original post, you talked to your wife about leaving her and you mention a 6 year plan. Then came the questions about being deceptive.
I went and dug out my own quote when I first mentioned "leaving" to my wife.
"I pointed out that it was all about herself, her needs, her desires. Not accepting me for who I am, and not thinking at all about my needs!. that here is our opportunity, and she wants to be done". "I told her that I would start planning my exit strategy". She said " I will not get in your way, I will give you your space." I said, "I figured you would say/do that."
We kept up our 'false mask' for another 3 seasons. More marriage therapy,more reading and much time seeking advice and council on here. There was also advice about shredding my crede and not tipping my hand to soon.
That was my first time even mentioning "separating" even though I had been told by my W. " I detached myself from you years ago."
Basically, my wife didn't think I would ever have it in me. I am to co-dependent. There's truth in that. But someone can only be pushed so far.
I don't see that as being deceptive. Instead it was an honest reaction to years of- having my buttons pushed being constantly controlled-, and then being told you're wrong for defending yourself.
If I was having plans of waiting 6 more years until the youngest was in college, that changed quickly with my acceptance that there's nothing left,not even a dying ember, and that we were setting a terrible example for our teens of what a loving, respectful, trusting relationship should be."
There was also the part about the night I said " I am ending our marriage" and my W immediately went to the computer and started moving money. Money is something to definitely consider with a six year plan. The more, and more "dirt' that gets uncovered the easier it is to see that ending things NOW is to everyone's benefit.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 24, 2017 14:40:37 GMT -5
Scenario 3: (2) it is actually meaningless to put something so significant and drastic as a divorce threat so far into the future. Just wouldn't work. Six months might be a more reasonable timeframe. As Dan and Jenm have been saying on the 'Justified or just a bitch' thread, it is easier just to maintain a facade rather than drop timebombs that could blow the whole thing up. If the topic comes up, I will just say 'I don't want to be in a sexless marriage' and leave it to her to interpret that as she will. That's my current plan, anyway. I think you had it correct here, almost. 6 years, or 6 months - it's still the same. It says, "there will be no consequence to this". How is SHE going to "turn around" not wanting to fuck you? It's the not wanting to fuck you that results in the behavior of not actually fucking you, and that results in the feeling that you have of not being desired. That is the correct feeling to have in that situation, and an authentic expression of what's happening there. So, whether it is 6 years or 6 months, the principle is identical. It's you saying, "Don't worry. I will attach no consequence to this now. I might deal with this later." I've seen this happen many times in my friend circle, and I've done it myself. That 6 months expires and passes and you are still standing on that diving board, not jumping, or you keep nailing down further boards to the end of the plank until it's extended and bent to snapping. Maybe you make another fuss if you have the courage, and buy more time, move the goalpost farther. Or, and this almost NEVER happens, that time expires and you follow through, immediately. Someone moves out, is served papers, or issues new terms for the marriage - such as "I've placed a casuals ad for a partner, and I've got a date for next week. Do you want to meet her/him first, or would you rather not know? Either way, you'll have the kids on that night, so don't make plans." Or, someone - you or your partner has an affair that is discovered.At that point, and not a second sooner, shit gets real, the default is no longer celibate marriage, and choices get made. "Sometime later, something something..." is read as "this is still manageable with a fight now and then." If marriage includes a romantic element, and your partner doesn't have that to offer you, then the appropriate negotiation to take place is one of separation, co-parenting, and divorce. You are merely discussing the terms of how to have the least impact on the elements of lifestyle that you both still value.
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Post by james on Nov 30, 2017 13:54:52 GMT -5
I hope that others will not mind if I continue on with this thread, still trying to get it all straight in my mind.
Thank you for your comment, workingonit, if I can extricate myself from this mess with my head held high, then I really will feel proud.
I am totally with Dan when he says that his first priority is to be the best dad he can be to his kids. That is what I want to be, and I am also with Dan when he says that he cannot be that person if living in a different house his family. So, no separation or divorce, and no outsourcing – too risky. I would be found out and ejected. I’m also with Dan when he says that the path of least destruction is to maintain the married facade, keep shtum, and not reveal any future intentions. But this does, as he says, contain an element of deception and perhaps selfishness.
When Apocrypha says:
So, whether it is 6 years or 6 months, the principle is identical. It's you saying, "Don't worry. I will attach no consequence to this now. I might deal with this later."
I've seen this happen many times in my friend circle, and I've done it myself. That 6 months expires and passes and you are still standing on that diving board, not jumping, or you keep nailing down further boards to the end of the plank until it's extended and bent to snapping.
I agree it is a good point, but I am not totally sure that it applies to me. I seem to have a personality type which allows me to make a plan for a distant point in the future, and then to follow through on it when the time comes. So I could paraphrase what Apocrypha says above as follows: “Do worry. I will attach consequences to this now, however I will deal with them later.” And if that is six years later, then so be it. It is actually a bit scary to me how implacably I mean this.
One further point, though. I went to see a counsellor a while back, on my own. I told my story and her slightly surprising response, to me, was that I should divorce my wife now. Her argument was that it would be too hard on her to do this later, as the kids would have left home. She had a point. Not only will the kids have left home, but our totally adorable dog will certainly have died, and in all probability her mother will as well. Given that she does not talk to her brother and her father is deceased, then she really will be bereft if I go as well. And I don’t want to destroy her.
One other thing about my wife: she is very good, I mean really extremely good at blame and recrimination. I cannot count the number of ways in which I have ruined her life and really being denied sex is too good for me. The recriminations if I suddenly leave her without prior warning six years from now will go on for the rest of my life. Yes, I know I won’t be there, but nonetheless she will have a point, and I care about that.
I know I probably sound a bit up my own bottom with my wanting to be fair, not coerce, not destroy etc etc, expecially after the way I have been treated, but these things really do matter to me. Maybe a bit like Buddhism to Caris.
Not sure what to do at the moment. Comments welcome and thank you.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 30, 2017 14:40:15 GMT -5
I am totally with Dan when he says that his first priority is to be the best dad he can be to his kids. That is what I want to be, and I am also with Dan when he says that he cannot be that person if living in a different house his family. So, no separation or divorce, and no outsourcing – too risky. I would be found out and ejected. I’m also with Dan when he says that the path of least destruction is to maintain the married facade, keep shtum, and not reveal any future intentions. But this does, as he says, contain an element of deception and perhaps selfishness. So I could paraphrase what Apocrypha says above as follows: “Do worry. I will attach consequences to this now, however I will deal with them later.” And if that is six years later, then so be it. It is actually a bit scary to me how implacably I mean this. One further point, though. I went to see a counsellor a while back, on my own. I told my story and her slightly surprising response, to me, was that I should divorce my wife now. One other thing about my wife: she is very good, I mean really extremely good at blame and recrimination. As much as I agree with Dan on his posts, this is one we part ways on. Everything I have read says 1) God 2) Marriage 3) Family. A large destroyer of sex, intimacy, trust, and respect in a marriage comes when (primarily the woman) puts the children far ahead of the marriage. The H is shoved on the back-burner and the H is fed a line of B.S. about being self-sufficient. So much for "the two shall cleave to each other and become one". I see little difference when a man says "i am staying for the children". This brings up the painful reality of " what kind of example are you giving your teens of what a loving, intimate, open, respectful, fun, sharing, relationship should be like?" Personally I would have preferred my own up-bringing to have been more that way. " No I am not taking you there, no you are not getting one of those, no you aren't staying in our room,--I'm going to be spending time with your mother." "of course I sit like that with mom, she's my wife". Instead things were cold and distant with zero communication. Just like my own house today. You think kids don't see that? Do you think kids aren't affected by that? I agree about the outsourcing and the risk- hence the divorce. Once divorced, no longer is that a weapon in my W's arsenal. Then comes the HOPE of finding other women who will be a much more stable, joyful, caring, selfless influence on my teens formidable years. This includes myself and my own approach towards a new beginning. There are consequences attached now, and they keep building. This was a strong motivator for me to end things now, to begin the healing and restructuring for the good of the whole family. The more you allow the blame and control, the deeper your self esteem goes right down with it. A big fear of mine is that my teens will be like their controlling mother in ways they will never be able to overcome. I want to teach them through my own example of standing up for myself and and reversing the abuse. Lastly: They don't care that you don't care. It's the loss of power. When you no longer care, they cease to have power over you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Nov 30, 2017 15:03:34 GMT -5
I agree it is a good point, but I am not totally sure that it applies to me. I seem to have a personality type which allows me to make a plan for a distant point in the future, and then to follow through on it when the time comes. So I could paraphrase what Apocrypha says above as follows: “Do worry. I will attach consequences to this now, however I will deal with them later.” And if that is six years later, then so be it. It is actually a bit scary to me how implacably I mean this. Here is the way this works in practice for most people. Your awareness of the problem and feelings of distress increase across time, rather than remaining static. You both express resentment and eventually get into a spiral of mutual disdain. You carry that cross during the entire time. The six years elapses and you say, "time's up! I want a divorce" She tearfully falls to her knees and begs you to stay. Throws you down and makes love to you in a way that you believe it. You do her every which way but Sunday. She says "Let's get therapy. I want to do that with you! She finally talks to you about her resentment from some argument from a decade ago that made her lose respect for you." She talks about her parents. She opens up with a chaffe cloud of issues and you both realize there's lots to talk about in therapy, and she is saying she wants to do that. She's telling you everything you wanted to hear. She's saying she takes this seriously now. She thought she could fix it alone but she realizes now she needs help, or needs to try harder, or try different things. She's ready now. She's sorry. Please don't go. Please don't leave me. Let's work it out! Ball's in your court.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 30, 2017 15:22:08 GMT -5
She tearfully falls to her knees and begs you to stay. Throws you down and makes love to you in a way that you believe it. You do her every which way but Sunday. She says "Let's get therapy. I want to do that with you! She finally talks to you about her resentment from some argument from a decade ago that made her lose respect for you." She talks about her parents. She opens up with a chaffe cloud of issues and you both realize there's lots to talk about in therapy, and she is saying she wants to do that. She's telling you everything you wanted to hear. She's saying she takes this seriously now. She thought she could fix it alone but she realizes now she needs help, or needs to try harder, or try different things. She's ready now. She's sorry. Please don't go. Please don't leave me. Let's work it out! Ball's in your court. Aahmmm.... Please be aware of the rest of the story. ( a probability that I have read on here and from other resources from therapists with hundreds of examples) She just gave you another love bombing, another bait and switch. You are dealing with a master manipulator who is more than happy to find a female therapist who is on her side who she can pull the wool over the therapists eyes and yours. leading you to more years of why chasing. Meanwhile you will be continually blamed and left with zero sex and intimacy. The only thing she is taking serious is remaining in control over her own selfish needs and finances.
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Post by james on Dec 1, 2017 12:02:39 GMT -5
I agree it is a good point, but I am not totally sure that it applies to me. I seem to have a personality type which allows me to make a plan for a distant point in the future, and then to follow through on it when the time comes. So I could paraphrase what Apocrypha says above as follows: “Do worry. I will attach consequences to this now, however I will deal with them later.” And if that is six years later, then so be it. It is actually a bit scary to me how implacably I mean this. Here is the way this works in practice for most people. Your awareness of the problem and feelings of distress increase across time, rather than remaining static. You both express resentment and eventually get into a spiral of mutual disdain. You carry that cross during the entire time. The six years elapses and you say, "time's up! I want a divorce" She tearfully falls to her knees and begs you to stay. Throws you down and makes love to you in a way that you believe it. You do her every which way but Sunday. She says "Let's get therapy. I want to do that with you! She finally talks to you about her resentment from some argument from a decade ago that made her lose respect for you." She talks about her parents. She opens up with a chaffe cloud of issues and you both realize there's lots to talk about in therapy, and she is saying she wants to do that. She's telling you everything you wanted to hear. She's saying she takes this seriously now. She thought she could fix it alone but she realizes now she needs help, or needs to try harder, or try different things. She's ready now. She's sorry. Please don't go. Please don't leave me. Let's work it out! Ball's in your court. Thanks Apocrypha, but is that really true? My impression from the admittedly short time I have been on this site is that when the D topic is finally broached, the usual response is a kind of sullen acceptance. For example, one I read recently: his wife's response was to say nothing but go to the computer and start transferring money between accounts. This does not sound like falling to her knees, begging him to stay and offering sex in an interesting variety of positions to me! And how could a sexless partner possibly sustain that kind of approach after a 15 or 20 year sexless marriage? It just doesn't stack up. For a couple of months, maybe, but as soon as the pressure was off, he or she would surely revert to type?
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Post by M2G on Dec 1, 2017 12:23:27 GMT -5
Last weekend when I had "a" talk with the W, when she was adamant about "never again till the end of the world." I then made a comment that I was unsure what I wanted to do.
She asked me if I was threatening the marriage: I said "what marriage? all we have left of our marriage is a piece of paper." She asked me again what I meant, then asked if I was planning on dating. I answered "no - I just don't know what what I want to do" which is truly the true truth, truthfully spoken.
There it lies, for now. Not coercion, at least not intended, but I think maybe a touch of reality.
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