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Post by M2G on Nov 10, 2017 5:18:45 GMT -5
Here is a definition of sexual coercion as posted on outofthefog.net I think its very good, but somewhat one-sided as it's geared toward avoiding advances from people who suffer personality disorders (PD's). What seems sadly missing IMO is the POV where the PD is responsible for the refusing / withholding. Sexual Coercion
Opinions?
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Post by james on Nov 10, 2017 9:45:00 GMT -5
Thanks miles2go, the site you posted is interesting.
Compliments and gifts = sexual coercion. WTF???
I guess that leaves little room for doubt about my threatening to leave suggestion- this must DEFINITELY be coercion!! I really do not want to be in the business of coercing people to have sex AT ALL. So the withdrawal/medium chill approach is increasingly looking like the best one to me. The world of SM is truly a strange one.
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Post by M2G on Nov 10, 2017 10:34:18 GMT -5
Thanks miles2go, the site you posted is interesting. Compliments and gifts = sexual coercion. WTF??? I guess that leaves little room for doubt about my threatening to leave suggestion- this must DEFINITELY be coercion!! I really do not want to be in the business of coercing people to have sex AT ALL. So the withdrawal/medium chill approach is increasingly looking like the best one to me. The world of SM is truly a strange one. Out of the Fog is the site my W is on. I kinda like it, but we promised each other not to "invade" each other's online space (other than link some stuff like DARVO, Medium Chill, and JADE.) I don't even wanna know what may be posed about me over there (and would thank you all not to tell me, should you figure out her name over there).
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Post by baza on Nov 10, 2017 17:42:10 GMT -5
This coercion subject hasn't really touched on the fact that coercion has already taken place. By your refusing spouse. The only essential difference is that the coercion took place by stealth. You got coerced into your ILIASM shithole by your refuser spouse. You didn't get "fair warning", you were not informed what the agenda was, you didn't even get a vote. Essentially, you were / are collateral damage to your spouses unilateral choice to have a sexless marriage. Now your spouse may have coerced you "nicely" (like Brother Dan missus) maybe they coerced you off-handedly (like Sister workingonit husband) or coerced you "abruptly" (like shamwow 's missus) or coerced by a series of outright lies (like Brother h missus) In any event, you were coerced. Now if you want to play nice, take the moral high ground, give fair warning or whatever, that's a perfectly valid choice for you to make. But don't expect your refuser spouse to reciprocate. It'd be helpful if they did, but given how they've acted up to now that scenario is pretty unlikely. Addendum - and what of the coercion exhibited in the scenario where the spouse threatens to kill themselves if you leave ?
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Post by james on Nov 11, 2017 5:22:14 GMT -5
Baza I agree that something bad has happened on the refuser's part but does it fall within the definition of 'coercion' ("persuading someone to do something by use of force or threats").? OK, the refuser is arguably forcing us not to have sex by not co-operating in a fundamental part of marriage, but I think it is more like breach of contract which is not the same thing as coercion. Using a slightly silly tennis analogy.: say you have an agreement with a partner that you will play tennis once a week. You even go to the lengths of drawing up a contract to say that you will do this. The contract is carefully worded with get-outs (illness, injury, act of God etc), and importantly it specifies consequences of non-compliance. At the start you play once a week, then your partner starts losing interest. Once a week becomes once a month, and even when he is playing, he jsut doesn't seem interested. I am sure members of this forum will have no difficulty in envisioning that scenario. So you start hassling him to play and giving him a hard time when he plays without engagement. Phone calls, notes. You write a letter reminding him of the contract. God, you even buy him a present and compliment him on his kit/style/shots in hopes of re-kindling. All of this is coercion. He is not engaging in any coercion, he is withdrawing, failing in the terms of his contract. Fortunately, the tennis contract has been drafted in such a way that his lack of engagement allows you to leave and find another partner- or to continue to play with him occasionally and still have another partner. The problem with the marriage contract is that it is loosely drafted. Meanings of terms used are obscure and the consequences of breach of contract are not spelled out.
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Post by h on Nov 11, 2017 6:46:59 GMT -5
james that sounds like a perfectly reasonable argument for every engaged couple to have a prenup agreement. Maybe we should all go the Sheldon Cooper route and make extremely detailed relationship agreements! 😁
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Post by M2G on Nov 11, 2017 7:06:56 GMT -5
Coercion is many faceted and can truly be painted with a broad brush: 1) A person holds another at gunpoint and demands cash. 2) Mohandas Gandhi, through peaceful, non-violent, non-cooperation, was able to drive the British out of India. Coercion is a tool, nothing more - in and of itself it is neutral: it's all about how it's used, that make it good or bad and, even then, the "winner" and "loser" still view it differently. (And Brother Baza, as usual - hits the nail dead on
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Post by james on Nov 13, 2017 4:05:15 GMT -5
h yes amusing to read about Sheldon's prenup but here is my deadly serious point: if I had had the remotest inkling of the 10 year and counting s***hole that I was going to end up in, I would have considered a conversation and prenup agreement about it time well spent. And if I enter into a relationship again in the future as I sincerely hope to, then I hope to have these discussions with my future partner.
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Post by brian on Nov 13, 2017 5:43:25 GMT -5
h yes amusing to read about Sheldon's prenup but here is my deadly serious point: if I had had the remotest inkling of the 10 year and counting s***hole that I was going to end up in, I would have considered a conversation and prenup agreement about it time well spent. And if I enter into a relationship again in the future as I sincerely hope to, then I hope to have these discussions with my future partner. I simply won't marry again... no more entanglements. Life is too short to get ensnared... again.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 15, 2017 12:18:43 GMT -5
h yes amusing to read about Sheldon's prenup but here is my deadly serious point: if I had had the remotest inkling of the 10 year and counting s***hole that I was going to end up in, I would have considered a conversation and prenup agreement about it time well spent. And if I enter into a relationship again in the future as I sincerely hope to, then I hope to have these discussions with my future partner. I simply won't marry again... no more entanglements. Life is too short to get ensnared... again. I see marriage as being for the stability of the family. I am done having kids. There will never be a second Mrs. Hamster. If a woman is with me, it will be purely out of mutual attraction and respect.
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Post by workingonit on Nov 15, 2017 19:25:10 GMT -5
I simply won't marry again... no more entanglements. Life is too short to get ensnared... again. I see marriage as being for the stability of the family. I am done having kids. There will never be a second Mrs. Hamster. If a woman is with me, it will be purely out of mutual attraction and respect. I 100% agree. If I divorce I will never marry again. Happy to be ling term, live with someone, whatever. But it will be a choice not a trap.
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Post by h on Nov 15, 2017 19:36:11 GMT -5
I see marriage as being for the stability of the family. I am done having kids. There will never be a second Mrs. Hamster. If a woman is with me, it will be purely out of mutual attraction and respect. I 100% agree. If I divorce I will never marry again. Happy to be ling term, live with someone, whatever. But it will be a choice not a trap. I completely agree. Same thing here. If this marriage ends, there won't be another.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 15, 2017 20:00:24 GMT -5
I 100% agree. If I divorce I will never marry again. Happy to be ling term, live with someone, whatever. But it will be a choice not a trap. I completely agree. Same thing here. If this marriage ends, there won't be another. Still in limbo about that. or should I say " I want to remain open-minded". Marriage would certainly be taken with a different approach. Especially a pre-nup agreement. As time goes on (and from what I read here) many people in my age range are quite settled. So two thoughts come to mind. 1) living in separate houses, raising separate families and seeing each other (dating) for years and years. 2) With every year another child will be leaving the nest. In time I will be free to travel, and perhaps relocate to be with someone else, or have someone re-locate to be with me.
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Post by M2G on Nov 16, 2017 23:37:36 GMT -5
I'm on the page of never again as well. This ending seems to be winding down like a long slow grind of terrible politeness. The kind of politeness that says we're just not worth the effort. The kind of politeness reserved for those times when it just isn't worth trying anymore.
We had some really great times but it would be much better I think, just to rip off the Band-Aids, throw the stuff in the truck and move on. All the common property and accumulated crap is a barrier to that. So are the pets - a thousandfold.
Just trying to figure out what to say, which is really just me stalling myself, then probably cry my guts out and get down to the mechanics of it all.
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Post by james on Nov 17, 2017 3:43:05 GMT -5
I see marriage as being for the stability of the family. I am done having kids. There will never be a second Mrs. Hamster. If a woman is with me, it will be purely out of mutual attraction and respect. I 100% agree. If I divorce I will never marry again. Happy to be ling term, live with someone, whatever. But it will be a choice not a trap. Well put, jenm, that is exactly how I see it also.
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