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Post by lwoetin on Aug 15, 2017 21:34:10 GMT -5
I have a 16yr old daughter too. And 13 yr old son. I don't know what I would do either. I don't think I have the fortitude to be part of the stay for the kids camp. But my wife has saved me from that nightmare. Unlike yours, she doesn't think I'm delusional. Instead she thinks I'm obsessed with sex. Which is just fine. Hopefully you can find something to ease your kids through the divorce process. Take it slow if possible. How did your wife save you? Are you divorcing now? no. We get along well. It's been an issue with sex. She thinks it's unnecessary at this point of our lives. I disagree. So we arm wrestle, peacefully. I made lame attempts at finding a partner and her efforts towards affection convince me to stay. (Therefore I've been spared from having to deal with divorce to kids. Like you, I would likely feel much guilt and shame.) However she announced that she won't have sex after she turns fifty. So that's a big day to look forward to. I'm not sure why she likes to complicate things. She appears to enjoy sex.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 15, 2017 21:52:52 GMT -5
no. We get along well. It's been an issue with sex. She thinks it's unnecessary at this point of our lives. I disagree. So we arm wrestle, peacefully. I made lame attempts at finding a partner and her efforts towards affection convince me to stay. (Therefore I've been spared from having to deal with divorce to kids. Like you, I would likely feel much guilt and shame.) However she announced that she won't have sex after she turns fifty. So that's a big day to look forward to. I'm not sure why she likes to complicate things. She appears to enjoy sex. And this is what makes it so freakin' difficult. When the rest of the relationship actually is "too good to leave", does lack of intimacy really make it "too bad to stay"? Are you really better off alone than with her? Argh! I won't suggest there's anything good about @creelunion's situation, but there's certainly no ambiguity there, regardless of the angst he's suffering in dealing with the situation.
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Post by baza on Aug 15, 2017 22:20:21 GMT -5
At some point, the "staying for the kids" rationale runs out of legs. Unless, of course, you propose to keep the *parent / child* relationship going indefinitely. And even then, the *child* may not want that type of relationship continuing indefinitely in any event.
FWIW, I offer this up in regard to my youngest (a teenager when I left). Prior to 2009 he proved quite capable of making idiot choices and dropping himself into shithouse situations that had sub-optimal consequences. Post 2009 and up to 2015 he maintained this ability to make idiot choices resulting in sub-optimal consequences. From his birth, and up to 2009 I was there, physically. I left my ILIASM deal in that year. From 2009 to 2015 I was NOT there physically. It made NO DIFFERENCE whether I was there or not there as far as what he chose to do. None.
Now since 2015, and the passing of his mother, it is a different story. He has pretty much got his shit together. Our relationship is not *child / parent* anymore - and hasn't been for quite a while now. It is more *adult / adult*, even *friends* I dare say. If I had stayed around on a basis of being there for him until he developed some responsibility and ownership of his choices, I would have been there until God knows when. Maybe, what with the tumultuous events of 2015, I'd still be there (albeit as a widower)
Anyway, I think that the *child / parent* relationship has a shelf life. At some time that has to lapse, and a new relationship grow out of that base. "When" that might happen is the great unknown. But I don't think you can delay (or advance) that "when" by being there 24/7 (or by not being there 24/7) The kid makes that call. If you're lucky, that happens when they are 18, if you're unlucky it happens when they are 40.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 6:33:32 GMT -5
How did your wife save you? Are you divorcing now? no. We get along well. It's been an issue with sex. She thinks it's unnecessary at this point of our lives. I disagree. So we arm wrestle, peacefully. I made lame attempts at finding a partner and her efforts towards affection convince me to stay. (Therefore I've been spared from having to deal with divorce to kids. Like you, I would likely feel much guilt and shame.) However she announced that she won't have sex after she turns fifty. So that's a big day to look forward to. I'm not sure why she likes to complicate things. She appears to enjoy sex. I've mentioned this to others, and heard it many times: All my wife had to do was sleep with me once per month. Not even well. I probably wouldn't be happy. But I would not technically be sexless. I'd be in some weird limboland between definitions with vague notions I probably wouldn't spend enough time qualifying into anything. The apple cart would be minimally fueled, and I'd just ride it to my grave. But nooooooo
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 6:43:29 GMT -5
I won't suggest there's anything good about @creelunion 's situation, but there's certainly no ambiguity there, regardless of the angst he's suffering in dealing with the situation. DC, You but the nail on the head. My situation has been anything but ambiguous to any rational human being for a long time. But I'm dense. Highly dense. It's a character flaw I'm working on. But in the last few months I've prayed earnestly for "Disambiguation" of this situation. And I changed up the landscape some to force stress on myself. It was deliberate and tough. Plumb near killed me. I received clarity in spades. In mining vernacular, I hit the Clarity Motherload.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 9:39:57 GMT -5
I've mentioned this to others, and heard it many times: All my wife had to do was sleep with me once per month. Not even well. I probably wouldn't be happy. But I would not technically be sexless. I'd be in some weird limboland between definitions with vague notions I probably wouldn't spend enough time qualifying into anything. The apple cart would be minimally fueled, and I'd just ride it to my grave. But nooooooo My friend, I know exactly what you mean. If my refuser had been willing to have bad sex with me once a month, I would have stayed and endured her abuse until I died. But that is not what God wanted for me. Now I am in a relationship that is not only full of love, but is also full of satisfying sex. My wonderful girlfriend and I have exciting, passionate sex as much as possible, sometimes 8-10 times in a day on the weekends. The idea of being satisfied with once a month, bad sex is completely ridiculous to me now. She is my best friend, my lover, my partner, and my biggest cheerleader. This storm will pass.
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Post by unmatched on Aug 16, 2017 22:30:41 GMT -5
I won't suggest there's anything good about @creelunion 's situation, but there's certainly no ambiguity there, regardless of the angst he's suffering in dealing with the situation. DC, You but the nail on the head. My situation has been anything but ambiguous to any rational human being for a long time. But I'm dense. Highly dense. It's a character flaw I'm working on. But in the last few months I've prayed earnestly for "Disambiguation" of this situation. And I changed up the landscape some to force stress on myself. It was deliberate and tough. Plumb near killed me. I received clarity in spades. In mining vernacular, I hit the Clarity Motherload. There is a school of thought that says if there is something you need to learn then life will show it to you. And if you ignore it life will show it to you a bit louder. And if you keep ignoring it life will ramp up the volume until you are getting smacked around the head on a regular basis. If that is true then the question is what did you need to learn about yourself from being (and staying) in that relationship? It strikes me that denial was clearly not healthy for you, and has probably not been great for your daughter either. It is not fun being suddenly faced with reality, and she (like the rest of you) is going to have an adjustment period while she comes to terms with the fact that while you guys were white-knuckling your way through your marriage, hoping and pretending everything could be OK, it clearly wasn't. But maybe in time it will get her thinking about what is really important in a relationship. And another maybe - in time she might be able to see you modelling something a whole lot healthier. I have an 11 year old boy, and we haven't told him yet - we are going to wait until September. But I am really really not looking forward to it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 22:31:58 GMT -5
@creelunion, I was just starting to wonder whatever happened to you...now I know.
I had no idea of just how bad things were with you and your wife. No idea. I'll be blunt: your wife is batshit crazy.
Whether you find something good later on or not - in your case, getting out can only be an improvement. Your description of her behavior is one of the best definitions of gaslighting that I've ever seen.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 18, 2017 4:46:02 GMT -5
Its exactly gaslighting. Some folks may not even realize they are doing it. But its still not an excuse. @creelunion , I was just starting to wonder whatever happened to you...now I know. I had no idea of just how bad things were with you and your wife. No idea. I'll be blunt: your wife is batshit crazy. Whether you find something good later on or not - in your case, getting out can only be an improvement. Your description of her behavior is one of the best definitions of gaslighting that I've ever seen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 6:57:22 GMT -5
@creelunion , I was just starting to wonder whatever happened to you...now I know. I had no idea of just how bad things were with you and your wife. No idea. I'll be blunt: your wife is batshit crazy. Whether you find something good later on or not - in your case, getting out can only be an improvement. Your description of her behavior is one of the best definitions of gaslighting that I've ever seen. Yes, it is gaslighting. The tough part is, as long as I was ignoring her and mostly doing my own thing, I was ok. I probably didn't hear half of it. But when I decided to join the Human race and consider others, etc, I got sensitive. And then, it suddenly sucked. ----------- It's funny. You're not the first one to say she's nuts. A bunch of my friends familiar with the situation also say that. In a couple cases, she's asked me what John (business partner whose wife walks dogs with her every morning) or Rob (best man in our wedding) think of this. I always just tell her that's private and she shouldn't ask such things. But, they're convinced she has a PD. Her wiring is routed wrong. But, telling her that will help NO ONE. She needs help, but she has to want it. And has to figure it out on her own.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 18, 2017 7:24:18 GMT -5
It's helpful and kind of weird how it seems every morning in the shower "I review my situation"- with thoughts from these posts.
Today I was back to givers and takers. Thinking of situations where one gives 100% and recieves 1% in return. So what do they do? They blame themselves.
Next comes the "compromise"-only they do all the giving in again.
I can especially relate to how much I "compromised-caved" in the formidable weeks and months of the beginning of our marriage. I did all the changing- then suffered the years of consequences, clinging to a false hope that she would change.
I am taken back when other ladies in my divorce recovery, and ladies on here, call my W. "what a bitch!" -I've programmed myself to be so blind to it- not worthy. Yet I don't tolerate such treatment from the general public.
The giver does the changing. The taker does no compromising-in fact they now start demanding things be even MORE their way! While their RESPECT for you lessons with every episode.
Hence the double bind, the endless treadmill, the gas-lighting.
Now comes another learning experience-learning to love myself, and make myself happy.
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Post by baza on Aug 19, 2017 2:19:42 GMT -5
The maximum concession you make to a refuser becomes the minimum concession the refuser expects of you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 19:36:51 GMT -5
It's helpful and kind of weird how it seems every morning in the shower "I review my situation"- with thoughts from these posts. Today I was back to givers and takers. Thinking of situations where one gives 100% and recieves 1% in return. So what do they do? They blame themselves. Next comes the "compromise"-only they do all the giving in again. I can especially relate to how much I "compromised-caved" in the formidable weeks and months of the beginning of our marriage. I did all the changing- then suffered the years of consequences, clinging to a false hope that she would change. I am taken back when other ladies in my divorce recovery, and ladies on here, call my W. "what a bitch!" -I've programmed myself to be so blind to it- not worthy. Yet I don't tolerate such treatment from the general public. The giver does the changing. The taker does no compromising-in fact they now start demanding things be even MORE their way! While their RESPECT for you lessons with every episode. Hence the double bind, the endless treadmill, the gas-lighting. Now comes another learning experience-learning to love myself, and make myself happy. GC, I was never a compromiser. My wife has complained about this for 20 years. There was a time when some associated non-compromise with narcissism. I even thought I might be one. Heck, maybe I was. Maybe I still am. But my experience with compromise is it leaves both parties feeling jipped. No one is happy. No one is committed to the deal. Everyone is trying to get over on the other party. So, when it was clear that my needs wouldn't be met, I either postponed the deal or gave her her "Thing" graciously if it was mine to give. It appears modern negotiating science is agreeing with me now. It appears to me the best practice is to work hard to find your friend's/partner's/spouses most important needs and meet those in spades without negotiation. Make sure they're physically, emotionally, mentally, and to the degree you can help, spiritually satisfied and comfortable. Maybe negotiate with other stuff. But clearly, you're going to have to find someone you're deeply and comprehensively compatible with. You both have to be at least mostly sane. But, I think twice before compromising. And I would NEVER offer it or expect someone else to compromise. I think it's immoral on par with employment contracts.
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Post by greatcoastal on Aug 19, 2017 22:04:45 GMT -5
It's helpful and kind of weird how it seems every morning in the shower "I review my situation"- with thoughts from these posts. Today I was back to givers and takers. Thinking of situations where one gives 100% and recieves 1% in return. So what do they do? They blame themselves. Next comes the "compromise"-only they do all the giving in again. I can especially relate to how much I "compromised-caved" in the formidable weeks and months of the beginning of our marriage. I did all the changing- then suffered the years of consequences, clinging to a false hope that she would change. I am taken back when other ladies in my divorce recovery, and ladies on here, call my W. "what a bitch!" -I've programmed myself to be so blind to it- not worthy. Yet I don't tolerate such treatment from the general public. The giver does the changing. The taker does no compromising-in fact they now start demanding things be even MORE their way! While their RESPECT for you lessons with every episode. Hence the double bind, the endless treadmill, the gas-lighting. Now comes another learning experience-learning to love myself, and make myself happy. GC, I was never a compromiser. My wife has complained about this for 20 years. There was a time when some associated non-compromise with narcissism. I even thought I might be one. Heck, maybe I was. Maybe I still am. But my experience with compromise is it leaves both parties feeling jipped. No one is happy. No one is committed to the deal. Everyone is trying to get over on the other party. So, when it was clear that my needs wouldn't be met, I either postponed the deal or gave her her "Thing" graciously if it was mine to give. It appears modern negotiating science is agreeing with me now. It appears to me the best practice is to work hard to find your friend's/partner's/spouses most important needs and meet those in spades without negotiation. Make sure they're physically, emotionally, mentally, and to the degree you can help, spiritually satisfied and comfortable. Maybe negotiate with other stuff. But clearly, you're going to have to find someone you're deeply and comprehensively compatible with. You both have to be at least mostly sane. But, I think twice before compromising. And I would NEVER offer it or expect someone else to compromise. I think it's immoral on par with employment contracts. I'm with you, the word "compromise" was used to show that there's no compromising going on at all! That boundaries get ridden over like a tank by a manipulative controller. -I learned that in the book Boundaries in Marriage- another thought is how "compromise is used in business and government. You ask for way more than you know you will get. Then you "compromise". I've rarely liked that approach. I'm much to much of a straight shooter. Stating what I want, what I expect, what I believe in. When your correct, and you know it, that's what it is, correct. No compromising needed. A fact is a fact. That's where this DARVO tactics drives me bonkers!! Sadly I was a victim to it for decades. So yes, think twice, or three times before compromising. I'll speak for myself, bluntly. " The problem goes back to being raised to believe that my duty was to make my spouse happy, content, safe, guarded, protected, at any cost. Including trashing all concept of self worth and respect. Die to self and serve all others. You will be blessed." Look what it got me?
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