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Post by baza on Jul 19, 2016 4:08:54 GMT -5
In a story a couple of days ago, a member wrote along the lines of how unhappy they were, and posed the question - "Does the avoidant spouse not realise that they are putting the marriage in serious jeopardy ??"
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It is an interesting viewpoint, and worth taking a look at I reckon.
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I reckon that from the avoidant spouses perspective, if they think of this risk at all, they don't rate the risk as being very high.
And, based on the evidence in front of them, they are correct in that assessment.
The risk that the refused spouse is going to call time on the deal is actually very, very low.
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The evidence is, that although the refused spouse may be giving off unmistakable vibes of being unhappy, and perhaps in some cases actually threatening to end the marriage, they are still there.
They haven't left, and they are not giving any credible indication that they might.
And so, the avoidant spouse, if they are thinking about this risk at all, they do NOT regard the possibility as being very high.
And, they are right.
There is no pressing need for them to review, or alter, their behaviour.
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We know, from our side of the issue, that most of us are highly reluctant to -
- see a lawyer in our jurisdiction and establish how a divorce would shake out.
- construct an exit strategy and knock it in to do-able shape.
- shore up our support network / engage an exit counsellor.
- do the leg work researching how to help kids (if any) through the divorce process.
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These things, in place, are a very very good indicator that there IS a credible threat to the marriage.
And, just as obviously, the absence of these things is a very very good indicator that there is no credible threat to the marriage.
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So to this "Does the avoidant spouse not realise that they are putting the marriage in serious jeopardy ??" question, the answer is probably "no".
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As ever, it is the refused spouse who - if they are serious about the issue - gets the job of telling the avoidant spouse that they are putting the marriage at risk.
But if the refused spouse is going to take on this responsibility, they had better have those things (above) in place, and ready to action them if need be.
It can't be a bluff, unless you want to shred your cred.
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Post by petrushka on Jul 19, 2016 6:40:54 GMT -5
Typically what we see here is one of two scenarios: either the refuser sits on cloud 7 or cloud 9, does their thing, enjoys their control or whatever it is that they get their ego gratification from, but they're happy doing what they're doing and they shit on their refused spouse from a great height.
It doesn't really look very much to them, from their perspective, that there's a great danger of the shat-upon trying to get out from under. And sometimes
if they do worry (e.g. control freaks, who worry all the time), they make threats. I could list three spouses of current members without even thinking hard
about it who have taken recourse to threats.
And some of those refusers simply have their head so far up their arse that it never occurs to them that their ship might be headed straight for the iceberg.
Who was it again who thought by pretending the Inland Revenue didn't exist he was going to get off scott free? Some other clown "oh, oops, didn't pay the electricity again" - or, vice versa, didn't make the payments on the car until it got towed. There have been so many examples of that ilk.
They Just.Don't.Get.It. Head in a nice warm, dark place.
The other scenario we get here from time to time is when both spouses are disaffected and one thinks "I can't be fucked to get intimate with this other who lives
in my abode" and pulls out, detaches, stops taking out the trash, doing the dishes, avoids being in the bed the other one is going to sleep in (and I don't mean the lazy-arsed numbnuts by that). So then the one who's being avoided starts getting angry, then detatches ... and the whole thing turns into a dog of a relationship where everybody is chasing their own tail. And
when that's the case the refuser probably doesn't give a shit where the whole thing is going, they're just too inert to do something about it, or too despondent, or whatever other scenario you may construct.
My refuser actually created her disaffection as a defensive measure - and just how fucked up is that? She was terrified of getting involved too deeply, so, in order not to get hurt, she'd make out she was being hurt all the time so she could live in a permanent state of grievance and shut me out. I could've gone the same way ... and I was only a very short time from calling it quits when I laid it out for her how I was feeling in turn, and I think that's when she realized that there was something going on that she might *really* want to be worried about - other than the drama queen antics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 9:28:34 GMT -5
My refuser seemed to be willing to put up with my obvious unhappiness. He knew me well enough to know that I didn't like unpleasantness, so he could be reasonably sure that I wouldn't want to Talk About It(TM) very often. And when I did, he knew he could shut me up by getting bitchy about whatever I said.
So, I guess, for him, the cost of keeping me around - while making no effort to change the situation - was pretty low. He'd have to deal with me sulking because I was angry, and having a crying fit about every 6 weeks. In return for that, he got my physical presence in our home. I'm not sure what else he wanted from me.
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endthegame
Junior Member
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by endthegame on Jul 19, 2016 9:44:55 GMT -5
The only time the penny dropped with my spouse was when she physically saw the divorce papers and held them in her hand. I had information on my PC, which she knew, I had invited her to counselling with me, to save our marriage, she refused, and I tried every single option I knew to improve things, which was vast. The decade of preceding conversations (The Talk 1,2,3,4,5,6... etc) were obviously not taken into consideration as real nor important, and in truth, they were NOT real as I didn't act upon them. The years when I disengaged, total disinterest I had in her, the separate bed scenario, the new friends she never knew, the separate life I developed without her (all of these due to her avoidance), none of them highlighted to her that there was a very real problem and the problem was her. She was happy with the status quo. To her there was no problem. As Baz says, you got to have your ducks in a row, but to instigate any change the avoidant spouse needs to see you have your ducks in a row. Tip toeing around the issue for years was my mistake as it kept me in limbo. I believe most refusers actually refuse to see the truth, sometimes any truth. The fear of confronting their own demons is so hard they would rather risk the marriage. I can only speak from my experience, but the ONLY thing that made the light bulb turn on in her head was a piece of paper from a lawyer in her own hands stating "I AM DIVORCING YOU." The Irony is, only then, ONLY THEN, did she attempt any real change, but of course, in my mind I had left her years before.
Having read thousands of posts on the old EP, met people from EP, seen psychologists etc etc blah blah I feel this is not uncommon. So to answer the question - "Does the avoidant spouse not realise that they are putting the marriage in serious jeopardy ??"
In a word - No.
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endthegame
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Age Range: 46-50
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Post by endthegame on Jul 19, 2016 9:52:06 GMT -5
Smartkat - "he got my physical presence in our home. I'm not sure what else he wanted from me."
I am not sure they know. Most refusers seem dysfunctional, they 'need' someone for 'something', but are lost. The main problem for the refused seems to be we are human, humanity compels us to fix it/them, and we cannot fix another, that task is theirs alone.
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Post by smilin61 on Jul 19, 2016 10:37:15 GMT -5
My refuser seemed to be willing to put up with my obvious unhappiness. He knew me well enough to know that I didn't like unpleasantness, so he could be reasonably sure that I wouldn't want to Talk About It(TM) very often. And when I did, he knew he could shut me up by getting bitchy about whatever I said. So, I guess, for him, the cost of keeping me around - while making no effort to change the situation - was pretty low. He'd have to deal with me sulking because I was angry, and having a crying fit about every 6 weeks. In return for that, he got my physical presence in our home. I'm not sure what else he wanted from me. Yep. I often wondered why my refuser chose to get married over just getting a dog for companionship. And yes, that realization was a big 'ouch'. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 19, 2016 11:30:02 GMT -5
They are so avoidant and so in denial that they believe we will never pull the trigger. The longer you are married the deeper in denial they are.
I told my ex I wanted a divorce, I told him to get an attorney, etc.
He didn't believe it until he was served. To him zero risk. Shame on him!
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Post by iceman on Jul 19, 2016 13:12:40 GMT -5
My refuser seemed to be willing to put up with my obvious unhappiness. He knew me well enough to know that I didn't like unpleasantness, so he could be reasonably sure that I wouldn't want to Talk About It(TM) very often. And when I did, he knew he could shut me up by getting bitchy about whatever I said. So, I guess, for him, the cost of keeping me around - while making no effort to change the situation - was pretty low. He'd have to deal with me sulking because I was angry, and having a crying fit about every 6 weeks. In return for that, he got my physical presence in our home. I'm not sure what else he wanted from me. Yep. I often wondered why my refuser chose to get married over just getting a dog for companionship. And yes, that realization was a big 'ouch'. I've had those same thoughts. When I ask my wife why she got married companionship is the first thing she says, followed by children. It was very sobering to realize while I got married for love (and that definitely includes sex) I merely perform a function for her. Companionship, father of her children, income, house .... |
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Post by iceman on Jul 19, 2016 13:25:33 GMT -5
I don't think my wife really had any fear that my unhappiness might lead to our marriage ending. She got that example from her parents. By all accounts, including her own, they were unhappy for their entire marriage but stuck it out until the end. She seemed to change as I withdrew from her, became indifferen and no longer pursued her, largely leading my own life without her. That seemed to at least give her pause and she has started to make an effort to at least be more affectionate, with the exception of a random event a couple of weeks ago, sex is not involved. I don't really think she's changed. I think she's afraid. Her affectionate gestures seem very forced. And the sex seemed very forced. No real feeling in any of it. It doesn't really matter at this point. The damage is already done in my eyes. We lost the connection and nothing is going to bring it back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 13:50:45 GMT -5
With you iceman....the marriage is about companionship more than anything...and is more afraid of losing that then anything. But I have been driven away from the lack of any higher connection...and I really don't know if I could get it back...I am happiest when I go my own path...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2016 14:11:31 GMT -5
My refuser seemed to be willing to put up with my obvious unhappiness. He knew me well enough to know that I didn't like unpleasantness, so he could be reasonably sure that I wouldn't want to Talk About It(TM) very often. And when I did, he knew he could shut me up by getting bitchy about whatever I said. So, I guess, for him, the cost of keeping me around - while making no effort to change the situation - was pretty low. He'd have to deal with me sulking because I was angry, and having a crying fit about every 6 weeks. In return for that, he got my physical presence in our home. I'm not sure what else he wanted from me. Yep. I often wondered why my refuser chose to get married over just getting a dog for companionship. And yes, that realization was a big 'ouch'. Ha ha. Off-topic but I often thought if I had discovered my love of my favorite dogs before my husband instead of after, I may never have married. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 19, 2016 14:14:18 GMT -5
Yep. I often wondered why my refuser chose to get married over just getting a dog for companionship. And yes, that realization was a big 'ouch'. Ha ha. Off-topic but I often thought if I had discovered my love of my favorite dogs before my husband instead of after, I may never have married. Another spin on that: I have often thought that if I had had sex with just one person other than my husband then I wouldn't have dated him very long. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 19, 2016 16:10:09 GMT -5
Ha ha. Off-topic but I often thought if I had discovered my love of my favorite dogs before my husband instead of after, I may never have married. Another spin on that: I have often thought that if I had had sex with just one person other than my husband then I wouldn't have dated him very long. If I'd kissed that girl at a party the week before or second date, my wife and I would probably still just be friends who trade funny stories. |
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sufferinhubby
Junior Member
My marriage is not a tragedy. It's more like a romantic comedy without the romance
Posts: 67
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by sufferinhubby on Jul 20, 2016 8:51:15 GMT -5
I have often thought that if I had had sex with just one person other than my husband then I wouldn't have dated him very long. When I was dating my wife, I could tell that she wasn't the same caliber lover as my former girlfriend. I attributed it to her just having less experience. I didn't know it was a sign of things to come, and dumb-ass here married her anyway. I'm not sure if once having a phenomenal sex life helps or hurts my current situation, but somehow it didn't stop me from dating and marrying a dud. |
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Risk.
Jul 20, 2016 9:01:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by bballgirl on Jul 20, 2016 9:01:32 GMT -5
I have often thought that if I had had sex with just one person other than my husband then I wouldn't have dated him very long. When I was dating my wife, I could tell that she wasn't the same caliber lover as my former girlfriend. I attributed it to her just having less experience. I didn't know it was a sign of things to come, and dumb-ass here married her anyway. I'm not sure if once having a phenomenal sex life helps or hurts my current situation, but somehow it didn't stop me from dating and marrying a dud. I agree with you about the in theory the butterfly effect may not come into influence. In my case my ex was a very selfish man and if maybe another man had done certain things I would have realized the signs of what was lacking and call him out on his lack of performance. Maybe! SMH |
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