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Post by jim44444 on Jun 26, 2016 18:14:39 GMT -5
I see that for most the answer is to ultimately move on. I totally get it. I've threatened it. I sit and plan the whole thing out sometimes in my worst and loneliest moments. Has anyone ever been successful is working this out with their spouse? I mean, is that even possible? I am fearful it is either pull up the big girl panties and deal or cut my losses. Cause really those are my options as it stands now. I would love to hear any experiences. What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged? I come from family that doesn't divorce (on both sides)...for ANYTHING. Both of our parents are married to each other. No one else speaks of any marriage issues and we are really the odd balls out, or rather I am, because I really am the only one with the issues. I am serious, no one talks about divorce and it is greatly frowned upon. If I ever leave it will be a new thing. I am always steered to silently cope or pray. Success can only be measured one day at a time. You may come up with a plan to "fix" your marriage and it may work. Until it doesn't. Then you may come up wth a new plan, lather, rinse and repeat. Your plans are doomed to failure unless your H is committed to a mutually agreed upon plan. And even then the plan may fail. But before making a grand plan to save your marriage it would serve you well to make an exit plan. You then would be negotiating from a position of strength and not just "threatening". As for members who have turned around their SM I can only recall timeforliving2 as an example. There are many examples of members who have turned around their lives by ending their SM via divorce. |
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 26, 2016 18:32:47 GMT -5
Friend, this is a great example of how the truth shall set you free! Why should you feel free to discuss this openly here, but not with your own family? The truth can be the hardest pill to swallow, but the benefits, the freedom is priceless! I think, deep inside ( under that society mask we all wear) there comes a huge relief when someone close to us, someone we admire, says," boy did I screw up, I have problems, my marriage is terrible, I struggle with things, I make the biggest mistakes, etc..) yet we hide behind our masks, live as society,and religion tell us to. Afraid of what others might think of us. Continue on with our dull existence, telling each other, " doing great!. See you next time". As our dull meaningless existence, floats aimlessly on an open sea. I did explode on my mother yesterday when she arrived. I started talking and my mouth wouldn't stop. CC, That's awesome! It took me *forever* before I finally confided in / talked with my dad about the SM. But what a relief and burden lifted. Keep talking with people... you should have more than just 1 "outlet". I'm sure your mom will be helpful, but also start confiding in / talking with a few other people as well: your dad (if decent relationship), good longstanding friends that you trust, others who may have gone through divorce, etc. Never forget this: you are *normal*. People will understand. What your H / refuser is doing is *not normal*. |
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Post by adventura on Jun 26, 2016 18:38:09 GMT -5
CC, That's awesome! It took me *forever* before I finally confided in / talked with my dad about the SM. But what a relief and burden lifted. Keep talking with people... you should have more than just 1 "outlet". I'm sure your mom will be helpful, but also start confiding in / talking with a few other people as well: your dad (if decent relationship), good longstanding friends that you trust, others who may have gone through divorce, etc. Never forget this: you are *normal*. People will understand. What your H / refuser is doing is *not normal*. Totally agree with this. I "protected" my sexless relationship for years before unloading on my best girl friend who has known me for 35 years. I thought she'd criticize me for expecting too much of him and instead she she said, "I've been waiting to hear this from you." Or when I told my dad my refuser partner wanted to move in with me and he said, "I hope you don't do that. I don't want you to be unhappy. You two don't have much in common." I mean, my dad NEVER gets into my personal business, but I asked, and boy did I get an answer. cc, you sound like an incredibly cool woman. I'll tell you that there's hope, but it will probably turn out to be hope for YOU, to learn how cool you are, exactly as you are, on your own without a boat anchor dragging you down. That's OK - take the time to straighten it out in your mind, but don't let the years get away from you. It's easy to do - I'm living proof. |
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 26, 2016 18:49:07 GMT -5
I see that for most the answer is to ultimately move on. I totally get it. I've threatened it. I sit and plan the whole thing out sometimes in my worst and loneliest moments. Has anyone ever been successful is working this out with their spouse? I mean, is that even possible? I am fearful it is either pull up the big girl panties and deal or cut my losses. Cause really those are my options as it stands now. I would love to hear any experiences. What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged? I come from family that doesn't divorce (on both sides)...for ANYTHING. Both of our parents are married to each other. No one else speaks of any marriage issues and we are really the odd balls out, or rather I am, because I really am the only one with the issues. I am serious, no one talks about divorce and it is greatly frowned upon. If I ever leave it will be a new thing. I am always steered to silently cope or pray. Success can only be measured one day at a time. You may come up with a plan to "fix" your marriage and it may work. Until it doesn't. Then you may come up wth a new plan, lather, rinse and repeat. Your plans are doomed to failure unless your H is committed to a mutually agreed upon plan. And even then the plan may fail. But before making a grand plan to save your marriage it would serve you well to make an exit plan. You then would be negotiating from a position of strength and not just "threatening". As for members who have turned around their SM I can only recall timeforliving2 as an example. There are many examples of members who have turned around their lives by ending their SM via divorce. CC, as Jim said it's possible to work things out but difficult. Both my spouse / former refuser and I were willing to work at it. Over 2 years later after turning things around is our marriage wedded bliss? No, but we understand each other better and we keep working at things. Getting a counselor involved was key, but I/we did many other things as well. Stand up for your *needs*. And here's another hard part: Be willing to walk away if counseling doesn't work, and tell your H / refuser that. I too come from a family where no one divorced / longstanding marriages on both sides / conservative religious upbringing, etc.... and it took me forever to become internally resolved that I wasn't going to take it anymore and I would in fact be willing to leave. But how many years / nearly 2 decades were "wasted" in agony before I became internally resolved. We all deserve to live a reasonably happy life. You know deep down that at the most basic level your own happiness is more important than your marriage. If you're not happy, then the marriage will suffer. If the marriage suffers, then it spills over into other things: relationships with kids/family, work, other friends sometimes, etc. Feel free to post or message separately and I'll respond when I can. I try to check in a few times a week. TL2 |
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Post by baza on Jun 26, 2016 22:01:35 GMT -5
Sister cc.
I am looking at this bit of your initial post - "What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged?"
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These suggestions (below) are all geared to discover what, if anything, your spouse is prepared to do.
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#1 - Take the pressure right off him. Cease pandering to your spouse. Stop asking, stop begging, drop the subject altogether.
Now, observe what his actions are to this.
The chances are, that will be a big fat fucking zero.
That will give you a real good clue about the chances of a 180 in your deal.
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#2 - Put the pressure right on him. Give him a credible ultimatum.
Now observe what his actions are to this.
The chances are that you will get a tawdry bit of re-set sex and that will peter out pretty quickly back to a zero.
That will give you another really good clue about the chances of a 180.
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*Credible ultimatum*
Threatening divorce is a credible ultimatum ONLY if you have a do-able plan to carry that threat out, and are prepared to do it.
Your writings thus far seem to indicate that you have already played this card several times before, but you were not prepared to actually do it. Your ultimatum was NOT credible.
That's a problem as you have effectively shred your cred. If you try that one again, he will (reasonably enough) figure you are just blowing smoke.
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It really looks like #1 is your only remaining technique to "finding out if the marriage can be salvaged", and I would imagine you have already tried that one several times in the past anyway, and got sub-optimal results.
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Might be best to recognise the reality of your situation.
All the evidence so far points to it being dead in the water.
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 22:02:18 GMT -5
I did explode on my mother yesterday when she arrived. I started talking and my mouth wouldn't stop. CC, That's awesome! It took me *forever* before I finally confided in / talked with my dad about the SM. But what a relief and burden lifted. Keep talking with people... you should have more than just 1 "outlet". I'm sure your mom will be helpful, but also start confiding in / talking with a few other people as well: your dad (if decent relationship), good longstanding friends that you trust, others who may have gone through divorce, etc. Never forget this: you are *normal*. People will understand. What your H / refuser is doing is *not normal*. She did listen this time. Said she wanted me happy. She did say it would be great if she never had to have sex again (she doesn't like it 😂). She loves my husband...everyone does. I'm crazy feeling because it's hurting my kids. They aren't seeing a real relationship. I'm getting the feeling I should be thankful for what I do have from those I've told. I'm done dealing and pretending ... |
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 22:03:19 GMT -5
CC, That's awesome! It took me *forever* before I finally confided in / talked with my dad about the SM. But what a relief and burden lifted. Keep talking with people... you should have more than just 1 "outlet". I'm sure your mom will be helpful, but also start confiding in / talking with a few other people as well: your dad (if decent relationship), good longstanding friends that you trust, others who may have gone through divorce, etc. Never forget this: you are *normal*. People will understand. What your H / refuser is doing is *not normal*. Totally agree with this. I "protected" my sexless relationship for years before unloading on my best girl friend who has known me for 35 years. I thought she'd criticize me for expecting too much of him and instead she she said, "I've been waiting to hear this from you." Or when I told my dad my refuser partner wanted to move in with me and he said, "I hope you don't do that. I don't want you to be unhappy. You two don't have much in common." I mean, my dad NEVER gets into my personal business, but I asked, and boy did I get an answer. cc, you sound like an incredibly cool woman. I'll tell you that there's hope, but it will probably turn out to be hope for YOU, to learn how cool you are, exactly as you are, on your own without a boat anchor dragging you down. That's OK - take the time to straighten it out in your mind, but don't let the years get away from you. It's easy to do - I'm living proof. I worry....in 5...10 years what will I regret? |
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 22:05:29 GMT -5
Success can only be measured one day at a time. You may come up with a plan to "fix" your marriage and it may work. Until it doesn't. Then you may come up wth a new plan, lather, rinse and repeat. Your plans are doomed to failure unless your H is committed to a mutually agreed upon plan. And even then the plan may fail. But before making a grand plan to save your marriage it would serve you well to make an exit plan. You then would be negotiating from a position of strength and not just "threatening". As for members who have turned around their SM I can only recall timeforliving2 as an example. There are many examples of members who have turned around their lives by ending their SM via divorce. CC, as Jim said it's possible to work things out but difficult. Both my spouse / former refuser and I were willing to work at it. Over 2 years later after turning things around is our marriage wedded bliss? No, but we understand each other better and we keep working at things. Getting a counselor involved was key, but I/we did many other things as well. Stand up for your *needs*. And here's another hard part: Be willing to walk away if counseling doesn't work, and tell your H / refuser that. I too come from a family where no one divorced / longstanding marriages on both sides / conservative religious upbringing, etc.... and it took me forever to become internally resolved that I wasn't going to take it anymore and I would in fact be willing to leave. But how many years / nearly 2 decades were "wasted" in agony before I became internally resolved. We all deserve to live a reasonably happy life. You know deep down that at the most basic level your own happiness is more important than your marriage. If you're not happy, then the marriage will suffer. If the marriage suffers, then it spills over into other things: relationships with kids/family, work, other friends sometimes, etc. Feel free to post or message separately and I'll respond when I can. I try to check in a few times a week. TL2 Yes! My kids deserve to witness parents who love each other. My oldest told me, I remember how you two used to be. My heart was crushed. |
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 22:09:35 GMT -5
Sister cc. I am looking at this bit of your initial post - "What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged?" - These suggestions (below) are all geared to discover what, if anything, your spouse is prepared to do. - #1 - cease pandering to your spouse. Stop asking, stop begging, drop the subject altogether. Now, observe what his actions are to this. The chances are, that will be a big fat fucking zero. That will give you a real good clue about the chances of a 180 in your deal. - #2 - give him a credible ultimatum. Now observe what his actions are to this. The chances are that you will get a tawdry bit of re-set sex and that will peter out pretty quickly back to a zero. That will give you another really good clue about the chances of a 180. - *Credible ultimatum* Threatening divorce is a credible ultimatum ONLY if you have a do-able plan to carry that threat out, and are prepared to do it. Your writings thus far seem to indicate that you have already played this card several times before, but you were not prepared to actually do it. Your ultimatum was NOT credible. That's a problem as you have effectively shred your cred. If you try that one again, he will (reasonably enough) figure you are just blowing smoke. - It really looks like #1 is your only remaining technique to "finding out if the marriage can be salvaged", and I would imagine you have already tried that one several times in the past anyway, and got sub-optimal results. - Might be best to recognise the reality of your situation. All the evidence so far points to it being dead in the water. Well, your words have me freaked out. You summed up the cycle other than me leaving and truly making him do something. Your correct, he doesn't believe me, he is then good a few days, overly helpful, cheerful, and as you put it reset sex. The big deal lately, the past 3, now 4 months I won't let him reset things. I just can't bear the cycle. This is making me evil as heck. I've been horrible. |
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Post by baza on Jun 26, 2016 22:30:26 GMT -5
I'm not seeing in your posts that you have been evil / horrible, but mebbe I missed one somewhere.
What I am seeing is a distressed woman facing an untenable situation.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Jun 26, 2016 23:44:52 GMT -5
Yes, I tell him my husband died. Where is that man? I don't know this person. I know what I want, I'm not sure either scenario is possible. We live a days drive from all family. I have friends, but all busy mom's. He doesn't have friendships. My point, no one but two people know anything, but they refuse to acknowledge it. My mother is coming for 2 weeks...I'm exhausted already. cc, A few other points / observations / questions... in no particular order: - It's odd / not normal that your H / refuser doesn't have friendships. Do you have any idea why that is?
- Generally speaking, what kind of work does your H do / what field or industry is he in?
- If he doesn't have friends, then you are his "everything". I think you may have more leverage in your relationship than you think... in terms of you getting what you want.
- If you've lost some credibility on saying that you may file for divorce / be willing to separate (per your and baza's comments in your other posts)... then you may also get some more credibility this time around *IF* you shake things up a bit and do MORE things that aren't normal for YOU. For example, take off your wedding ring and leave it off (I did this for almost 18 months and it *was* a concern to my W / refuser... one of many details that helped create change). Join a gym (if you're not a member already). Ask him to watch the kids (if necessary) so you can go work out at a gym. Start going out with some girlfriends in the evening (other moms that you mention) while he watches the kids because you need a break. Subscribe to some new magazines that may get him thinking why you're getting them (health, relationship, fashion, sex columns, etc.). Get some new clothes that are more sexy and wear them to places where you go somewhere without him. If you start doing a lot of these things and THEN say that you can't live this way anymore (in a SM) and you've got to make some changes (e.g. first, build a better you, and second, build a better marriage, either with him, or if not, with someone else)... THEN you will have more credibility.
- You mentioned a few times that you are "guided" to work things out yourself and just pray. This also is not normal. Normal advice these days is to seek counseling, not keep to yourself. Prayer is a personal subject, so if you're praying, be sure to pray for appropriate things.
- You're a day's drive from all family. Just curious... Do you live in a fairly rural area / small town area or an urban area?
- Curious: For how many of the 18 years was the sex good? Approximately when on the timeline did it change? Perhaps I missed that somewhere.
- Your oldest child noticed that you're not the couple that you used to be. So he/she noticed a change and you said it broke your heart. Did you at least have some good years?
- Do you think your H has any medical issues that may impact the SM? Have you asked him (note: it may be difficult for him to admit)? Has he had his testosterone level checked? After going through a SM I finally got mine checked just so I have a baseline at this point in my life. I wish I had tested for it earlier... it would have been interesting to see how this changes over my lifetime.
TL2 |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Jun 27, 2016 8:32:27 GMT -5
Then when we were splitting I cleaned out a drawer and found a kind of journal entry I wrote when we were engaged. In it I mentioned all of his/our problems. He wasn't dependable, he didn't keep his promises, he didn't pull his weight, and he was so stressed about work we were barely having sex. This was SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. So did he change? No. Ok, it was the worst, most depressed, most passive aggressive version of him at the end, but it was still HIM. You could even argue that it was the most honest, unvarnished version of him. I'm not sure how much people change. I think more often we project what we want to see onto people and then are shocked when it turns out they were never the person we projected in the first place. THIS. Last year, early in the year - when the wildlife mating season kept pointing itself out to me, I started rereading journals - even from as far back as my first failed college year (a couple years before meeting my ex and many years before marrying him). I read all the way up to the present - - these are off & on notebooks, I went through phases of writing more or not - - so it didn't take a lot of months to read through all of them. What I discovered was that my SM had NOT, in fact, started as recently as the prostate cancer diagnosis and treatment. I found so many entries of arguments or "bad times" and spots where I initiated, once again, the discussion of "how much sex is enough - - because I'm not getting enough" - - I was appalled, some, that the pattern had BEEN THERE the whole time. The intervals were different back then. When he made effort, that went on for longer periods back then. But I think all he ever really wanted was a great friend - - that was enough for his wife. I was amazed at how far back those tendencies really went. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 27, 2016 9:07:31 GMT -5
CC, That's awesome! It took me *forever* before I finally confided in / talked with my dad about the SM. But what a relief and burden lifted. Keep talking with people... you should have more than just 1 "outlet". I'm sure your mom will be helpful, but also start confiding in / talking with a few other people as well: your dad (if decent relationship), good longstanding friends that you trust, others who may have gone through divorce, etc. Never forget this: you are *normal*. People will understand. What your H / refuser is doing is *not normal*. She did listen this time. Said she wanted me happy. She did say it would be great if she never had to have sex again (she doesn't like it 😂). She loves my husband...everyone does. I'm crazy feeling because it's hurting my kids. They aren't seeing a real relationship. I'm getting the feeling I should be thankful for what I do have from those I've told. I'm done dealing and pretending ... Why this feeling of being thankful for what you have, from those you've told. Sounds like bad advice from those who are afraid to come out from behind their masks of " happy family". More of the, " we all have problems dear, it could be worse, you should be thankful, blah blah, blah." Like the old, " eat your brussel sprouts, their are kids starving in Africa!" While you continue to be rejected, humiliated, deceived, conned, played,mentally abused, and controlled. All in the name of " marriage." Face it if it was anything but marriage, people would want him locked up for treating you that way. It's so wrong. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 27, 2016 9:55:32 GMT -5
She did listen this time. Said she wanted me happy. She did say it would be great if she never had to have sex again (she doesn't like it 😂). She loves my husband...everyone does. I'm crazy feeling because it's hurting my kids. They aren't seeing a real relationship. I'm getting the feeling I should be thankful for what I do have from those I've told. I'm done dealing and pretending ... One other thought about your mom wanting you to be happy. Does she mean, like her? Living a no sex life, not wanting it, forced into something, being controlled? I s this the example you where raised by? Are you finding yourself doing the same thing for your boys? so much to think about in a short time! While mom is hear it could be a good time to stand up to her, point the finger back at her and just let her know what a mistake this peace at all costs has gotten the both of you. On a side note, I remember my mother telling me about going to college and choosing a career. " whatever makes you happy." Pretty shallow advice. What I needed was a mentor, someone who would have taken me to some colleges, sat me down with some job counciling, introduced me to business men, etc... |
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Post by lwoetin on Jun 27, 2016 23:25:22 GMT -5
On EP, I met some members who have chosen to stay with their spouses. Like Phin said, maybe it is because some people mature and learn and improve during crises. I also come from a family that haven't divorced. Parents are still married although a rough marriage. Five of us children are married and no divorce yet. I like my brothers and sisters inlaws so hopefully we stay intact. Although we don't mention divorce to each other, I am sure it is a struggle to stay married. We are all gathering in a national park this summer so we were emailing each other a couple of months ago to plan our stay. Next thing, my youngest sister jokes that since we are arriving one day ahead of her that we not dirty the sheets. OK, I am in ILIASM and she had no clue that we have not done it for 6 or so months and then she said this. So I play along and said we have a washing machine in there so don't worry. Then my other sister chimed in and said "Eeuuuwwwww." For all I know we are all LIASM. We have little clue what is really going on with one another but we get hints from seeing each other interact with our spouses. I guess it is kind of like a group effort to stay intact, although without being "steered to silently cope or pray". My wife is well-liked. Can marriages be salvaged? I hope so. Friend, this is a great example of how the truth shall set you free! Why should you feel free to discuss this openly here, but not with your own family? The truth can be the hardest pill to swallow, but the benefits, the freedom is priceless! I think, deep inside ( under that society mask we all wear) there comes a huge relief when someone close to us, someone we admire, says," boy did I screw up, I have problems, my marriage is terrible, I struggle with things, I make the biggest mistakes, etc..) yet we hide behind our masks, live as society,and religion tell us to. Afraid of what others might think of us. Continue on with our dull existence, telling each other, " doing great!. See you next time". As our dull meaningless existence, floats aimlessly on an open sea. It is more about me liking my privacy. What goes on in our bedroom is between my wife and I. What my family members think is secondary and much less important. I can talk here because it's anonymous and because we are going through similar challenges and can offer support. I know that my family will support me in my decision just like I would with theirs. I don't hide my situation nor am I ashamed of it. I just don't care to make it a topic for group discussion. There are more fun things to talk about with them anyway. I do agree that freedom is priceless. But neither my wife nor I feel trapped. It just gets rough at times. |
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