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Post by GeekGoddess on Jun 24, 2016 12:27:52 GMT -5
in general, I'm not very optimistic that marriages can be 'fixed'. You, both of you, are who you are and that's not going to change. You can make adjustments and try to be accommodating which might work in the short term, but in the long term no matter how much you want it or how hard you try you revert back to your true nature. I don't buy that people change and grow apart. They are basically the same person now as they were we they married. The only exception that I can see is, as creelunion said above, is if the problem is medical, and I'll extend it to mental, like depression, there may be hope. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that many of us, myself included, simply married the wrong person, or made the mistake of marrying at all. Not everybody should be married but family and society put on a lot of pressure to be married and it's hard to resist that. I've gone down the aisle twice, both times it turns out with the wrong person. I'm sure my wives, if they are honest, would say the same thing about me. I'm really not sure I ever should have married anyone. It doesn't mean that I don't want relationships or children, just not the marriage. Well said and I agree with everything you said. I do want to talk to the people don't change part though. My refuser, he didn't change and when I met him I was 18 he was 26, I was young naive, a puppet that he controlled and I guess he loved me the best he was capable of. As I grew older the person HE married changed. I got smart and saw the abuse for what it was and that I deserved better. We all do. And yeah marriage is not a necessary piece of the puzzle for me. |
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Post by GeekGoddess on Jun 24, 2016 12:31:48 GMT -5
Well that didn't work like I thought - sorry for the totally stray copy/post. I agree with BBallGirl - - people may or may not change, but I can attest that I did change. I came of age, matured (some), learned new things, saw & experienced new things separate and different from my old man & what he was going through, seeing, spending time on. We may not have "changed" so much as became more of what we were to start with - -him ...his dependable nature became rigid instead of nurturing; my free spirit came to feel oppressed by him instead of comforted by reliability.
Anyway - the compromiser that he married wanted to stop doing everything his way and I branched out and took off on my own course. Something I had not had the nerve for back when we met, dated, wed.
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Post by cc on Jun 24, 2016 13:02:43 GMT -5
Yes, I tell him my husband died. Where is that man? I don't know this person.
I know what I want, I'm not sure either scenario is possible.
We live a days drive from all family. I have friends, but all busy mom's. He doesn't have friendships. My point, no one but two people know anything, but they refuse to acknowledge it.
My mother is coming for 2 weeks...I'm exhausted already.
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Post by cc on Jun 24, 2016 13:07:25 GMT -5
in general, I'm not very optimistic that marriages can be 'fixed'. You, both of you, are who you are and that's not going to change. You can make adjustments and try to be accommodating which might work in the short term, but in the long term no matter how much you want it or how hard you try you revert back to your true nature. I don't buy that people change and grow apart. They are basically the same person now as they were we they married. The only exception that I can see is, as creelunion said above, is if the problem is medical, and I'll extend it to mental, like depression, there may be hope. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that many of us, myself included, simply married the wrong person, or made the mistake of marrying at all. Not everybody should be married but family and society put on a lot of pressure to be married and it's hard to resist that. I've gone down the aisle twice, both times it turns out with the wrong person. I'm sure my wives, if they are honest, would say the same thing about me. I'm really not sure I ever should have married anyone. It doesn't mean that I don't want relationships or children, just not the marriage. Well said and I agree with everything you said. I do want to talk to the people don't change part though. My refuser, he didn't change and when I met him I was 18 he was 26, I was young naive, a puppet that he controlled and I guess he loved me the best he was capable of. As I grew older the person HE married changed. I got smart and saw the abuse for what it was and that I deserved better. We all do. And yeah marriage is not a necessary piece of the puzzle for me. Yes! We never had problems until I grew into a capable woman and not the little girl who needed a father and saving. He totally has hero syndrome. I absolutely worshipped him. I still wanted to, just differently. The past 3 months....the year leading up to the past 3 months.... |
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Post by cc on Jun 24, 2016 13:09:40 GMT -5
Well that didn't work like I thought - sorry for the totally stray copy/post. I agree with BBallGirl - - people may or may not change, but I can attest that I did change. I came of age, matured (some), learned new things, saw & experienced new things separate and different from my old man & what he was going through, seeing, spending time on. We may not have "changed" so much as became more of what we were to start with - -him ...his dependable nature became rigid instead of nurturing; my free spirit came to feel oppressed by him instead of comforted by reliability. Anyway - the compromiser that he married wanted to stop doing everything his way and I branched out and took off on my own course. Something I had not had the nerve for back when we met, dated, wed. I'm a free spirit to the point I'm called a gypsy. 😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 16:47:25 GMT -5
in general, I'm not very optimistic that marriages can be 'fixed'. You, both of you, are who you are and that's not going to change. You can make adjustments and try to be accommodating which might work in the short term, but in the long term no matter how much you want it or how hard you try you revert back to your true nature. I don't buy that people change and grow apart. They are basically the same person now as they were we they married. The only exception that I can see is, as creelunion said above, is if the problem is medical, and I'll extend it to mental, like depression, there may be hope. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that many of us, myself included, simply married the wrong person, or made the mistake of marrying at all. Not everybody should be married but family and society put on a lot of pressure to be married and it's hard to resist that. I've gone down the aisle twice, both times it turns out with the wrong person. I'm sure my wives, if they are honest, would say the same thing about me. I'm really not sure I ever should have married anyone. It doesn't mean that I don't want relationships or children, just not the marriage. Well said and I agree with everything you said. I do want to talk to the people don't change part though. My refuser, he didn't change and when I met him I was 18 he was 26, I was young naive, a puppet that he controlled and I guess he loved me the best he was capable of. As I grew older the person HE married changed. I got smart and saw the abuse for what it was and that I deserved better. We all do. And yeah marriage is not a necessary piece of the puzzle for me. BBG, this isn't the first time I've seen a woman marry a significantly older guy where this -- or other control things like immature fits of rage and violence -- happened. It seems to me that some men in their early 20s figure out that they cannot deal with women as peers, or somehow don't measure up mentally or emotionally, and then accept that and go find a little girl to own. Or, maybe they don't consciously decide to to that, but only a young girl finds their shit attractive anymore. But in most of the cases I know of, it seemed to be part of a plan or behavioral pattern. One woman I know -- my high school sweetheart -- was a life guard at a local swimming pool at 17 when she met her future overbearing, verbally abusive, scream freak husband. He was 24 and hanging out at the local swimming pool. I was shipping off to the USMC. She was very flattered that a great looking older guy took notice of her. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 24, 2016 16:53:04 GMT -5
Well said and I agree with everything you said. I do want to talk to the people don't change part though. My refuser, he didn't change and when I met him I was 18 he was 26, I was young naive, a puppet that he controlled and I guess he loved me the best he was capable of. As I grew older the person HE married changed. I got smart and saw the abuse for what it was and that I deserved better. We all do. And yeah marriage is not a necessary piece of the puzzle for me. BBG, this isn't the first time I've seen a woman marry a significantly older guy where this -- or other control things like immature fits of rage and violence -- happened. It seems to me that some men in their early 20s figure out that they cannot deal with women as peers, or somehow don't measure up mentally or emotionally, and then accept that and go find a little girl to own. Or, maybe they don't consciously decide to to that, but only a young girl finds their shit attractive anymore. But in most of the cases I know of, it seemed to be part of a plan or behavioral pattern. One woman I know -- my high school sweetheart -- was a life guard at a local swimming pool at 17 when she met her future overbearing, verbally abusive, scream freak husband. He was 24 and hanging out at the local swimming pool. I was shipping off to the USMC. She was very flattered that a great looking older guy took notice of her. Yep that about sums it up. I was young and naive. After the first week he told me he loved me. Lol. Who does that? Huge red flag!! He literally preyed upon me, then the bait and switch. All the girlfriends he had prior broke up with him. Well it wasn't a total waste I have two great kids and a check for child support that comes in the mail for the next nine years. |
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 24, 2016 17:40:01 GMT -5
A few years after we got together and a year or so after we married, my ex went into a huge depression and the kind, fun, easygoing guy I thought was my husband turned into a complete asshole. People used to ask after him and I would reply, "I don't know who the guy living in my apartment is, but it's not the guy I married." I even came up with a different name for the bad version, Fred. I would ask my ex, "When is Fred leaving?" Or, "Oh, is Fred back?" He was that transformed.
Or so I thought.
Then when we were splitting I cleaned out a drawer and found a kind of journal entry I wrote when we were engaged. In it I mentioned all of his/our problems. He wasn't dependable, he didn't keep his promises, he didn't pull his weight, and he was so stressed about work we were barely having sex. This was SEVEN YEARS EARLIER.
So did he change? No. Ok, it was the worst, most depressed, most passive aggressive version of him at the end, but it was still HIM. You could even argue that it was the most honest, unvarnished version of him.
I'm not sure how much people change. I think more often we project what we want to see onto people and then are shocked when it turns out they were never the person we projected in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 20:50:53 GMT -5
A few years after we got together and a year or so after we married, my ex went into a huge depression and the kind, fun, easygoing guy I thought was my husband turned into a complete asshole. People used to ask after him and I would reply, "I don't know who the guy living in my apartment is, but it's not the guy I married." I even came up with a different name for the bad version, Fred. I would ask my ex, "When is Fred leaving?" Or, "Oh, is Fred back?" He was that transformed. Or so I thought. Then when we were splitting I cleaned out a drawer and found a kind of journal entry I wrote when we were engaged. In it I mentioned all of his/our problems. He wasn't dependable, he didn't keep his promises, he didn't pull his weight, and he was so stressed about work we were barely having sex. This was SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. So did he change? No. Ok, it was the worst, most depressed, most passive aggressive version of him at the end, but it was still HIM. You could even argue that it was the most honest, unvarnished version of him. I'm not sure how much people change. I think more often we project what we want to see onto people and then are shocked when it turns out they were never the person we projected in the first place. A hundred thumbs up. Did the person we married really disappear or just shape shift? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2016 21:08:52 GMT -5
Well that didn't work like I thought - sorry for the totally stray copy/post. I agree with BBallGirl - - people may or may not change, but I can attest that I did change. I came of age, matured (some), learned new things, saw & experienced new things separate and different from my old man & what he was going through, seeing, spending time on. We may not have "changed" so much as became more of what we were to start with - -him ...his dependable nature became rigid instead of nurturing; my free spirit came to feel oppressed by him instead of comforted by reliability. Anyway - the compromiser that he married wanted to stop doing everything his way and I branched out and took off on my own course. Something I had not had the nerve for back when we met, dated, wed. I've often wondered if I really have changed. Outwardly it looks like I have. People often have a hard time believing this hardass atheist was once a Bible thumper. People who knew me 20 years ago would have died laughing at the suggestion that I'd be able to survive in a high pressure corporate environment, even if it is at low level. My first wife would never believe it if someone told her I have lasted longer than 30 seconds during sex. But I was depressed as a Christian, and I was depressed as an atheist (still am actually). I didn't advance or seek to excel whether I was working in a warehouse or at a pharmaceutical company. Ok I can last longer than 30 seconds now. With age you calm down. I'm shooting for a minute by age 55. But it takes courage and independent thinking to turn your back on a worldview you have depended on your entire life. It is not easy going from a laid back NPO to the high octane world of corporate jerkoffs where the bottom line is more important than the mission. And knowing you're bad in bed and putting your ego on the line to get better, in all seriousness that takes balls! Pun intended. Why the buts? No pun intended. Maybe who I am at the most fundamental level is the same, and maybe that person has grown. |
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Post by lwoetin on Jun 26, 2016 1:36:48 GMT -5
I see that for most the answer is to ultimately move on. I totally get it. I've threatened it. I sit and plan the whole thing out sometimes in my worst and loneliest moments. Has anyone ever been successful is working this out with their spouse? I mean, is that even possible? I am fearful it is either pull up the big girl panties and deal or cut my losses. Cause really those are my options as it stands now. I would love to hear any experiences. What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged? I come from family that doesn't divorce (on both sides)...for ANYTHING. Both of our parents are married to each other. No one else speaks of any marriage issues and we are really the odd balls out, or rather I am, because I really am the only one with the issues. I am serious, no one talks about divorce and it is greatly frowned upon. If I ever leave it will be a new thing. I am always steered to silently cope or pray. On EP, I met some members who have chosen to stay with their spouses. Like Phin said, maybe it is because some people mature and learn and improve during crises. I also come from a family that haven't divorced. Parents are still married although a rough marriage. Five of us children are married and no divorce yet. I like my brothers and sisters inlaws so hopefully we stay intact. Although we don't mention divorce to each other, I am sure it is a struggle to stay married. We are all gathering in a national park this summer so we were emailing each other a couple of months ago to plan our stay. Next thing, my youngest sister jokes that since we are arriving one day ahead of her that we not dirty the sheets. OK, I am in ILIASM and she had no clue that we have not done it for 6 or so months and then she said this. So I play along and said we have a washing machine in there so don't worry. Then my other sister chimed in and said "Eeuuuwwwww." For all I know we are all LIASM. We have little clue what is really going on with one another but we get hints from seeing each other interact with our spouses. I guess it is kind of like a group effort to stay intact, although without being "steered to silently cope or pray". My wife is well-liked. Can marriages be salvaged? I hope so. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 26, 2016 6:00:04 GMT -5
I see that for most the answer is to ultimately move on. I totally get it. I've threatened it. I sit and plan the whole thing out sometimes in my worst and loneliest moments. Has anyone ever been successful is working this out with their spouse? I mean, is that even possible? I am fearful it is either pull up the big girl panties and deal or cut my losses. Cause really those are my options as it stands now. I would love to hear any experiences. What are the steps to finding out if the marriage can be salvaged? I come from family that doesn't divorce (on both sides)...for ANYTHING. Both of our parents are married to each other. No one else speaks of any marriage issues and we are really the odd balls out, or rather I am, because I really am the only one with the issues. I am serious, no one talks about divorce and it is greatly frowned upon. If I ever leave it will be a new thing. I am always steered to silently cope or pray. On EP, I met some members who have chosen to stay with their spouses. Like Phin said, maybe it is because some people mature and learn and improve during crises. I also come from a family that haven't divorced. Parents are still married although a rough marriage. Five of us children are married and no divorce yet. I like my brothers and sisters inlaws so hopefully we stay intact. Although we don't mention divorce to each other, I am sure it is a struggle to stay married. We are all gathering in a national park this summer so we were emailing each other a couple of months ago to plan our stay. Next thing, my youngest sister jokes that since we are arriving one day ahead of her that we not dirty the sheets. OK, I am in ILIASM and she had no clue that we have not done it for 6 or so months and then she said this. So I play along and said we have a washing machine in there so don't worry. Then my other sister chimed in and said "Eeuuuwwwww." For all I know we are all LIASM. We have little clue what is really going on with one another but we get hints from seeing each other interact with our spouses. I guess it is kind of like a group effort to stay intact, although without being "steered to silently cope or pray". My wife is well-liked. Can marriages be salvaged? I hope so. Friend, this is a great example of how the truth shall set you free! Why should you feel free to discuss this openly here, but not with your own family? The truth can be the hardest pill to swallow, but the benefits, the freedom is priceless! I think, deep inside ( under that society mask we all wear) there comes a huge relief when someone close to us, someone we admire, says," boy did I screw up, I have problems, my marriage is terrible, I struggle with things, I make the biggest mistakes, etc..) yet we hide behind our masks, live as society,and religion tell us to. Afraid of what others might think of us. Continue on with our dull existence, telling each other, " doing great!. See you next time". As our dull meaningless existence, floats aimlessly on an open sea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2016 13:30:36 GMT -5
Hi cc, it sounds like you and I are in similar boats - in terms of time served with our refusing husbands. I don't know if there's hope. Maybe no one does. Every case is as individual as the people in it. I will tell you my current strategy (and probably my last ditch effort). I'm attempting to LOVE my husband in spite of everything. I am trying to overlook all his flaws (I've got my own) and trying to be the love and the change I want to see in my marriage. It's better than the anger and stonewalling we had going on before (both of us) and I am having some limited success. I say limited though because we all know you can't change a tiger's stripes. The only thing you can do is look at them differently. Or overlook them altogether. He's been much kinder to me, more talkative (though he's not very conversational to begin with), and things are generally more peaceful between us. As for the sex, we've had reset sex but now I'm getting "later" and "tomorrow" and "next week" from him, whenever I ask. There is always an excuse. So, it would appear I can't LOVE him out of refuserville. But, I'm still cautiously optimistic (b/c that's kinda my nature - cautious and optimistic) that he'll come around and at least we could have sex once a month. Oh dear, I read this and wonder, WTF am I thinking?? I am TOTALLY "settling" with this guy and why do I subjugate my own needs/wants/desires/hopes/dreams/plans for the future in that way? The truth is that it's very much a journey and a process for me. I'm in the thick of it and the above is where I am with it. Like my status says, I'm all about making peace not war right now. But at the same time, I've got an airtight exit plan and I work it and actively live it every single day. I come first these days and though I am trying to stay, if the other shoe drops, I will be strong and powerful (mentally and physically) if and when this thing blows up. HTH. |
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 17:29:28 GMT -5
On EP, I met some members who have chosen to stay with their spouses. Like Phin said, maybe it is because some people mature and learn and improve during crises. I also come from a family that haven't divorced. Parents are still married although a rough marriage. Five of us children are married and no divorce yet. I like my brothers and sisters inlaws so hopefully we stay intact. Although we don't mention divorce to each other, I am sure it is a struggle to stay married. We are all gathering in a national park this summer so we were emailing each other a couple of months ago to plan our stay. Next thing, my youngest sister jokes that since we are arriving one day ahead of her that we not dirty the sheets. OK, I am in ILIASM and she had no clue that we have not done it for 6 or so months and then she said this. So I play along and said we have a washing machine in there so don't worry. Then my other sister chimed in and said "Eeuuuwwwww." For all I know we are all LIASM. We have little clue what is really going on with one another but we get hints from seeing each other interact with our spouses. I guess it is kind of like a group effort to stay intact, although without being "steered to silently cope or pray". My wife is well-liked. Can marriages be salvaged? I hope so. Friend, this is a great example of how the truth shall set you free! Why should you feel free to discuss this openly here, but not with your own family? The truth can be the hardest pill to swallow, but the benefits, the freedom is priceless! I think, deep inside ( under that society mask we all wear) there comes a huge relief when someone close to us, someone we admire, says," boy did I screw up, I have problems, my marriage is terrible, I struggle with things, I make the biggest mistakes, etc..) yet we hide behind our masks, live as society,and religion tell us to. Afraid of what others might think of us. Continue on with our dull existence, telling each other, " doing great!. See you next time". As our dull meaningless existence, floats aimlessly on an open sea. I did explode on my mother yesterday when she arrived. I started talking and my mouth wouldn't stop. |
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Post by cc on Jun 26, 2016 17:32:00 GMT -5
Hi cc, it sounds like you and I are in similar boats - in terms of time served with our refusing husbands. I don't know if there's hope. Maybe no one does. Every case is as individual as the people in it. I will tell you my current strategy (and probably my last ditch effort). I'm attempting to LOVE my husband in spite of everything. I am trying to overlook all his flaws (I've got my own) and trying to be the love and the change I want to see in my marriage. It's better than the anger and stonewalling we had going on before (both of us) and I am having some limited success. I say limited though because we all know you can't change a tiger's stripes. The only thing you can do is look at them differently. Or overlook them altogether. He's been much kinder to me, more talkative (though he's not very conversational to begin with), and things are generally more peaceful between us. As for the sex, we've had reset sex but now I'm getting "later" and "tomorrow" and "next week" from him, whenever I ask. There is always an excuse. So, it would appear I can't LOVE him out of refuserville. But, I'm still cautiously optimistic (b/c that's kinda my nature - cautious and optimistic) that he'll come around and at least we could have sex once a month. Oh dear, I read this and wonder, WTF am I thinking?? I am TOTALLY "settling" with this guy and why do I subjugate my own needs/wants/desires/hopes/dreams/plans for the future in that way? The truth is that it's very much a journey and a process for me. I'm in the thick of it and the above is where I am with it. Like my status says, I'm all about making peace not war right now. But at the same time, I've got an airtight exit plan and I work it and actively live it every single day. I come first these days and though I am trying to stay, if the other shoe drops, I will be strong and powerful (mentally and physically) if and when this thing blows up. HTH. I have tried many things, one being exactly what he expected and wanted according to him. I'm in the very ugly part now. It isn't ok, but I can't pull it together. |
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