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Post by nyartgal on Jun 22, 2016 12:51:40 GMT -5
Both my passive aggressive ex and my borderline/narcissist mother are experts at the voluntary martyrdom guilt trip. Example: they do something for you that you didn't ask for and generally don't even want---a favor of some kind usually, something unnecessary like arranging all the spices in your cabinets in alphabetical order---and then when I don't dance up and down with appreciation, get mad at me! "I rearranged all your spices and you don't even seem that excited about it" Well, who asked you to??? And if you had asked me, I would have told you not to.
Does anyone else's refuser (or mother, for that matter) do this or is this just a condition of my personal hell?
Version B is taking something personally that is completely benign. I remember saying to my ex "oh, looks like we are out of milk" and him launching into a whole defensive monologue about how it wasn't his turn to buy the milk and it's not his fault, etc etc.
This isn't about sex specifically but it plays into the whole never taking responsibility thing. Whatever I did/do, said/say, it's not right and it's all my fault! And I'm not even allowed to have my own experience or emotions of it.
This is why in all the books I read about passive aggression they call this stuff "crazy making behavior." Because it is!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 13:23:09 GMT -5
Omg.... the spices thing is so my MIL...she watches our dogs when we go out of town. And always does the "projects" like rearrange the closets....(STAY out of MY stuff!!!!@) and then gets mad when we undo it after we get home... I had it that way for a reason...!!!
And my wife is scenario b...if we are out of something and I casually mention it, she goes off on this tired of how broke she is and she doesn't have the money for this and that....i never mention anything like that....ever.... I just do without or handle myself....
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Post by cagedtiger on Jun 22, 2016 13:25:37 GMT -5
Yes, that sounds very familiar. Especially version B- I was driving her car to the beach through a torrential downpour a few months back, and I asked innocently enough about when she'd last changed the tires ( the thing was hydroplaning like crazy), and she immediately got defensive and told me she felt like I was attacking her choice in her car.
More recently, I pointed out the sagging main beam and section of the floor in a conversation we had about things that still needed to be done on the house, and she got *MAD.* It wasn't a matter of attacking her choice in the house she bought, it was pointing out what every inspector in the country would immediately ding if she were to ever try and sell the house.
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 22, 2016 13:31:30 GMT -5
It's good to hear I'm not alone! The amount of imaginary content my ex could read into one innocent sentence was extraordinary. And of course, the content was always about HIM, always a criticism of him. He often shocked me with what he "read" between the lines, in reality his own misery and self-doubt that he projected on me.
I used to tell him: "you know, I'm a very direct person and when I have an opinion, I'm not scared to share it. So you don't have to waste time looking for coded messages. If I have a message for you, you'll hear it loud and clear."
Didn't work!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 13:39:19 GMT -5
Nyartgal..
Totally in your boat!!!! She reads things into what I or anyone else say about her!! So I say nothing... a lot... which means I am accused of not communicating.
She told be her mother called her a "selfish bitch" but digging down I found out her mother never used those words, just my wife's interpretation of what she said.... she can find the bad in anything anyone says about her....
It's how she retains the victim role she loves....and uses to her advantage.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 22, 2016 13:53:10 GMT -5
Okay... I am going to throw myself into the fire on this one!!!
I am the one who gets ticked off at the " oh it looks like we have run out of milk" comments. And would go into a tirade about it! Why?
When you have been the one for decades buying, supplying, groceries, transportation, parts, supplies, repairs, child care, etc.... With little thanks. You figure out that 7 gal. Of milk will last you till Sun evening, and that the fridge can't hold much more. Then when one or two others decide to go over the regular amount, not mention it, or do anything about it themselves( especially when you have three other liscensed drivers,and two work at grocery stores!) then come late ,late Sat. Night they " announce" ," oh look we have run out of milk" or come Sun. Morning they tell you " we ran out of milk yesterday, the kids won't have any this morning ." The wife expects me to jump out of bed and run to the store, because " she politely mentions we have run out". Sounds like a great opportunity to discuss " sharing the work load around our house, and being RESPONSIBLE for your own actions".
I've learned to just stay in bed and say " oh, I bought seven gallons this week, that's always been enough, don't know about that?" Or " yea, why don't you go buy some?" Then comes the " who drank it all? How old are they? Don't they need to learn responsibility? What are you telling me for?"
Again it sounds like a " control" issue. A one persons , one way of solving things.
Fire away comments, complaints, I am always learning.
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 22, 2016 14:09:32 GMT -5
Well GC, what you are describing is also passive aggression but it's hers if she is in fact covertly trying to criticize you about the milk. The problem is also that there is so much resentment built up about so many topics in your marriage, not to mention your sexual frustration, that even something like milk becomes a stand in for her not seeing you as anything but the guy who buys the milk!
When my ex would say things like "we should really get a new toaster oven" meaning, YOU should get us a new toaster oven I would respond, "you can be in charge of that." Feel free to use my line! PAs go crazy when you pass the buck back to them!!!
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Post by nyartgal on Jun 22, 2016 14:16:36 GMT -5
You know, passive aggressive is a kind of narcissism. They all think everything is about them, partially because their barely contained rage colors every thing they experience.
I really recommend reading up on this topic if this stuff applies to your spouse---that's what finally freed me from my marriage. My ex was a textbook case and I did a LOT of research which all said it's basically impossible to cure. Plus PAs never think they are the problem because they blame everything on everyone else, so it's very hard for them to seek or listen to help.
If your spouse is PA, things will never change! Trust me, I read three books on this, countless articles and talked to two shrinks. Stick a fork in it. Or them!
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 22, 2016 18:47:10 GMT -5
Someone mentioned in another post about there spouse having to redo everything their way. Even when it ends up 95percent the same. Their way is right. Yours was wrong. Part of the " never good enough, always jumping through hoops."
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Post by cagedtiger on Jun 22, 2016 20:47:44 GMT -5
Someone mentioned in another post about there spouse having to redo everything their way. Even when it ends up 95percent the same. Their way is right. Yours was wrong. Part of the " never good enough, always jumping through hoops." ...that would be a lot of my wife. I didn't even *know* there was a wrong way to put things in the refrigerator before we moved in. And apparently every time I annoy her with things like that, it resets some mysterious "closeness counter" to zero. And if she doesn't feel close to me, she doesn't want me to touch her. At all.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 22, 2016 21:12:11 GMT -5
Someone mentioned in another post about there spouse having to redo everything their way. Even when it ends up 95percent the same. Their way is right. Yours was wrong. Part of the " never good enough, always jumping through hoops." ...that would be a lot of my wife. I didn't even *know* there was a wrong way to put things in the refrigerator before we moved in. And apparently every time I annoy her with things like that, it resets some mysterious "closeness counter" to zero. And if she doesn't feel close to me, she doesn't want me to touch her. At all. Mine revolves around disciplining the children. Teaching them over, and over again about cleaning up after themselves, and household chores and responsibilities. My ways of enforcing her ways of cleaning the kitchen, weren't good enough . So I completely dropped out of the picture and let things fall apart, while being done " her way". This just drives the whole family further apart, and teaches the kids, " if they get away with it, why should I have to do it? And who needs clean plates and forks?" It reflects the lack of trust, respect, and communication. Sadly, for now, I feel vindicated in doing little about it. As long as " my ways are " never good enough, or wrong" then little will change until I have my own house again.
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Post by baza on Jun 22, 2016 23:27:47 GMT -5
A good PA can get you chasing shadows. A really food PA can act in such a peeved manner that you drive yourself stupid trying to guess what has peeved them off, and how you can fix it. - A really good PA adopts a position - by body language alone - that says - "I am upset, it is up to you to figure out why I am upset, and it is up to you to rectify the situation". And, a good PA can do this without saying a word. - Your role is to be wrong. At the first hurdle, if you perceive that the PA is upset and ask if that is the case, you are wrong. They are not upset. At the second hurdle, even if you guess right about the problem, you are wrong, it was something else. At the last hurdle (after the turmoil up to here) and you manage to pin down the claimed problem, then the way you fixed it was wrong. - The main thing a PA needs is another person. Without that person present to play the game, the game can't go on. - Best you put a bit of distance between yourself and a PA. Preferably physical distance, but engagement distance at least. - They are fucking poison.
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Post by JMX on Jun 23, 2016 7:47:21 GMT -5
It's funny - reading this thread is both insightful as well as petty. I know "the milk" and "other actions/non-actions" are merely examples of how far gone it is - so please understand, I am not saying any of you are wrong at all. I am just flabbergasted how the little things take over when no one compromises on the bigger picture. Some of these arguments sound like the littlest tiny things that people will ultimately fight over - time and time again. Even in healthy relationships. One of my husband's recent complaints - news to me - was that I ask him what I should do about something - be it job change or some other "big" life-changing moment. He said I ask him, he gives his opinion and then I do the opposite. I can envision more than a couple of scenarios where this is the case. So he went on to "punish" me for asking his opinion and doing the opposite. I reminded him that what he gives back for advice, are at best, three word answers so I always think maybe he just isn't interested. I also told him that had he communicated how much that bothered him, I would have taken a different approach. If we are talking Mars/Venus - I want to talk about a problem until I am satisfied I have approached all angles. I am not necessarily wanting him to "fix" it. He maybe just wants to "fix" it and move on. But that breakdown resulted in passive aggressive behavior on his part and it snowballed into "what do you do/what do I do?" non-sense. Go get some fucking milk, if you will. There was an article from the Gottman Institute recently (thanks TMD) that said 69% of issues in a relationship will never be solved. 69% !!!! Holy shit! The petty shit and things such as preference in raising children, cleaning house, etc. will never be solved. You are wasting your energy here. Do you and let them do them. In my case, the only thing that will "fix" current or future relationships is communication, agreeing to disagree lovingly and moving on from it. Whether or not the PA can do that at all is another story, but knowing things that weren't properly communicated by the emotionally challenged, will at least help you not buy into their attempts to engage you on the petty shit only. It comes from something you may or may not know about. Whether you put your energy into the deeper breakthrough or not, is entirely up to you, but get out of the vortex of stupid stuff that doesn't really matter.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 23, 2016 9:21:11 GMT -5
This cube has a lot of sides. Just want to shed light on another side of it. Little petty things can add up. The amount of them and the time they continue. Like the frog in the frying pan. They also reflect on the bigger problems. Lack of trust, lack of communication, lack of compromise, lack of respect. And one partner having too much control by having there yes or no be the final deciding factor that is set in concrete for years to come! An example or two. One spouse desires sex daily. The other once a week. The once a week gets missed. One spouse sees no problem , there's always next week. The other spouse sees it as 140 percent longer wait, and has a problem with it. One miss one time? Why get upset about it? Choose your battles, no big deal right? While the other is thinking," 14 times missed, this drives me crazy!" Now how does that open communication and compromise happen if the whole problem is looked upon by one as petty, insignificant, no problem at all, it's your problem not mine, I'm great you have problems etc...?
Another example. I do our laundry every weekend. No big deal. I'm washing folding, ironing, hanging, putting away my own stuff anyways, I'll do hers too! It's the years of finding the laundry all over the house and our room, that gets me. Steps away from the laundry basket or the closet. Years of asking for her to put it in the basket. So.. Yes, I " punish her" by not picking it all up every time to wash it. This was something I noticed before marriage. Her place was very clean. Shortly after marriage came the sentence of " you pick yours up every day, I pick mine up once a week, what's the difference?" Turn that clock forward twenty three years to our sons room. My wife asked me, " all kids rooms are messy, did you clean your room when you where a kid?" My answer, " yes! My bed was made every day, and my clothes never hit the floor, that is how I was taught!" Then comes the," it doesn't matter to her, but don't you dare try to fix it!"
This carries on to household chores, finances, responsibilities, relatives, raising children, all the way down to the littlest of things like who will pick up the wet newspaper in the driveway?
On a personal side note. I have to " compromise" with a skilled negotiator. Someone who represents their firm with other high ranking corporate executives. So imagine what happens to me when I mention her clothes constantly laying around the house. There's no compromise it becomes a mind twisting manipulation of keeping things just the way they are. As long as the " solution" fits her agenda!
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 23, 2016 10:55:25 GMT -5
When I'm content, I find that I can be awfully "zen" about the little crap.
When I'm discontent, that little shit is like nails on a chalkboard.
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